granting ability to pvp at level 30 was a mistake..

i understand full well there were good intentions to enlist more players to pvp by opening it at level 30 and even giving exp as an incentive to play it but this is getting pretty sad and ridiculous that, that's the only reason people want to pvp..

before 4.0 pvp was a sport that we earned as endgame content something we could enjoy with friendly competition and some nice rewards for our labours.. but now its a "i dont care if i win anymore as long as i get my tomes and exp" sort of attitude which has ruined literally most of the pvp communities' overall fun and experience of pvp.

and since the level 30 people have been queing up they probably don't even know how to PvP in ffxiv i've been in countless matches where myself or others have tried to calmly explain things and teach these newer players how to PvP only for it to fall on deaf ears.. leading to more frustration and making us wanna quit playing PvP all together.

this post isn't to discourage new players from trying tho but what its for is to explain the problem and hopefully maybe come to a consensus on what needs to be done.
so this is my suggestion on how to fix PvP:
1. put the required level back to 50 so that way new players will have time to learn their job and be able to understand it better. level 30 is still too fresh and easy paced for newer players PvP is chaos and requires skill from the player to adapt to high end content with fast paced combat.
2. if we are going to have exp involved as a reward/compensation make a new mode for it pls SE call it "PvP Levelling" or something to that effect so that way for those who just want exp and tomes can do so in that mode and the veterans can enjoy healthy and enjoyable competition in normal pvp.
3.establish an auto-dismissal for all players inside a match that kicks them if they idle for more than 3mins

i have hopes that the development team is reading our posts and discussing ideas such my own listed above^ and hope they sincerely consider our opinions on the discussion to provide a better PvP experience for us all.

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Originally Posted by Xdark93

1. put the required level back to 50 so that way new players will have time to learn their job and be able to understand it better. level 30 is still too fresh and easy paced for newer players PvP is chaos and requires skill from the player to adapt to high end content with fast paced combat.

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How does playing PVE to 50 teach people how to PVP? A lot of the abilities you don't even have access too at 50, not to mention how wildly different the skills can be.

You say all that like this is a new occurrence with Stormblood. Even back in ARR and HW, you'd get saddled with shit-tier, do-nothing seal farmers that didn't actually care about winning (or at the very least, seemed more interested in farming each other in the middle of nowhere instead of doing objectives). The only real difference between now and then is I'm only having to wait 5 minutes for a match even during off hours instead of 30+ minutes in the middle of prime time. If you had to choose between the occasional shit group with a 5 minute queue and the occasional shit group with a 30 minute queue, it's pretty obvious what most people would pick. Aside from reimplementing the auto-kick timer, your suggestions won't do anything besides balloon our queue times again while having zero impact on the quality of the teams.

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before 4.0 pvp was a sport that we earned as endgame content something we could enjoy with friendly competition and some nice rewards for our labours

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When did the devs ever state that PvP was a "reward" for PvE players? PvP is just a game mode.

Also it's not level 30s that are throwing matches for exp, they have potd for that, but pvp happens to be better past 60.

FWIW, there's already an auto-kick for afking. The problem is just that bots are programmed to circumvent it.

I will say that while the mode is wholly unenjoyable to me now post-skill prune it does seem to have been well-received by the community, so for the most part I've just given up on it personally. Bots and win traders have been all over Feast since its inception and hardly anything is done about it because that requires actual manpower dedicated to it (which SE does not seem to want to commit).

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

You say all that like this is a new occurrence with Stormblood. Even back in ARR and HW, you'd get saddled with shit-tier, do-nothing seal farmers that didn't actually care about winning (or at the very least, seemed more interested in farming each other in the middle of nowhere instead of doing objectives). The only real difference between now and then is I'm only having to wait 5 minutes for a match even during off hours instead of 30+ minutes in the middle of prime time. If you had to choose between the occasional shit group with a 5 minute queue and the occasional shit group with a 30 minute queue, it's pretty obvious what most people would pick. Aside from reimplementing the auto-kick timer, your suggestions won't do anything besides balloon our queue times again while having zero impact on the quality of the teams.

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i see you didn't notice my suggestions, i'm requesting they create a leveling mode of pvp for players who want exp or tomes thus separating the the more casual players from those who want the competition and to gain a steady win to loss ratio. furthermore i would ask that the achievement rewards be solely awarded to those who play normal pvp vs the proposed "leveling pvp" the reward structure for normal should be:ranks,achievements,seals, and tomes. and leveling: seals, tomes, and exp. having achievement rewards fro normal pvp will encourage players to try harder and take things more seriously, instead of this "1 and done" attitude we are used to seeing regularly. que times won't be an issue here if you want to pvp for sport you que for normal pvp
which like i said achievement rewards will motivate people to wanna actually try and if they don't wanna try they'll be booted by the auto-dismissal as punishment. but if you don't care for competition and just want your seal,exp, and tomes then queing for leveling pvp will genuinely be faster cause that seems to be what most are aiming for, and thus will terrible groups migrate there the majority of the time cause they don't want to improve at pvp just want their loot and be done.

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Originally Posted by Pence

How does playing PVE to 50 teach people how to PVP? A lot of the abilities you don't even have access too at 50, not to mention how wildly different the skills can be.

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before 4.0 PvP was a form of endgame content which was acquired at level 50, it was meant to be something we could look forward to doing everyday for various rewards gained from victory. the cross-hotbars were the same as your PvE hotbars so you were already familiar with the controls and knew what every action and skill would do if applied correctly. its not the same now however pvp has been simplified for newer players who obtained level 30, but in my personal opinion that level is just too low for them to grasp the concept of PvP almost anyone can gain level 30 in a week thanks to things like palace of the dead and mainstory quest in such a short amount of time all they've learned is that pressing buttons/keys will help them win a fight against a mob or boss no thinking is involved just mindless tapping is all they know they aren't in the mindset of rotations will help them dish out more damage/enemity/healing etc. and there are no consequences either for them. pvp is brutal lol it makes you think about what you're doing and is punishing when you die alot xD PvE is good practice to improve your combat capabilities as well as get experience on how to play a job and play it well at level 50 you should have a better understanding of this anybody can pick up pvp now but only skilled and practiced players will win that's what PvE is for practice :D

I my experience it's never newbies who are dragging the team down but know it alls with full 70s who think they are doing whats right by running off alone to try to kill the entirety of Maelstrom by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Xdark93

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If we're following this idea, I would have it as such:
Competitive PvP: Wolf Marks, Achievements
Levelling PvP: Seals, Tomes, EXP

As such, I would also make it with CPvP that if your contribution isn't extremely high (let's say the max contribution you can get is 15'000, you'd need 14'750 contribution), or if your team doesn't win, you gain zero Wolf Marks from it, and zero count towards achievements. This way, you have to be darn near perfect to win it. I believe this would spur in the competitive spirit in which you want PvP to become. It would become cutthroat competitive. Levelling PvP, can have rewards more evenly distributed (but perhaps not perfectly evenly distributed to encourage people to still play).

EDIT: With CPvP, I would also make it that dying will reset your contribution to 0. That wouldn't mean the team would lose said contribution however, just it would become classified as contribution by no team member. Similarly, things like overhealing, being interrupted while claiming ice, etc, would also cause some of your contribution (say maybe 80% of it), to become classified as contribution by no team member. This would make it further cutthroat.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

If we're following this idea, I would have it as such:
Competitive PvP: Wolf Marks, Achievements
Levelling PvP: Seals, Tomes, EXP

As such, I would also make it with CPvP that if your contribution isn't extremely high (let's say the max contribution you can get is 15'000, you'd need 14'750 contribution), or if your team doesn't win, you gain zero Wolf Marks from it, and zero count towards achievements. This way, you have to be darn near perfect to win it. I believe this would spur in the competitive spirit in which you want PvP to become. It would become cutthroat competitive. Levelling PvP, can have rewards more evenly distributed (but perhaps not perfectly evenly distributed to encourage people to still play).

EDIT: With CPvP, I would also make it that dying will reset your contribution to 0. That wouldn't mean the team would lose said contribution however, just it would become classified as contribution by no team member. Similarly, things like overhealing, being interrupted while claiming ice, etc, would also cause some of your contribution (say maybe 80% of it), to become classified as contribution by no team member. This would make it further cutthroat.

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CPvP would be completely desolate because there'd be nothing to gain but a glamour set every patch or two. You'd be back to the 30+ minute queues during HW.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

CPvP would be completely desolate because there'd be nothing to gain but a glamour set every patch or two. You'd be back to the 30+ minute queues during HW.

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From what I can gather, the people who want this wouldn't mind the super long queue times, so long as it gets rid of those who are just milking the system for XP, tomes, etc. And to me, PvP is meant to be this cutthroat "Do it perfectly or uninstall" sort of game mode. At least, from my experiences with MOBAs and MMOs with PvP. If you were less than perfect, you were considered not good enough to play the game. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems people want that super competitive spirit back in PvP.

EDIT: It was the hyper-caustic attitude in PvP in various games, from CoD, to LoL, Smite, HOTS, heck even WoW, that put me off PvP. That being said, I still support ideas like these because there is a market for them, even if I'm not in that target demographic.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

I my experience it's never newbies who are dragging the team down but know it alls with full 70s who think they are doing whats right by running off alone to try to kill the entirety of Maelstrom by themselves.

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As a Maelstrom myself, I like that people. It's like an exquisite medium rare steak running at you.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

EDIT: It was the hyper-caustic attitude in PvP in various games, from CoD, to LoL, Smite, HOTS, heck even WoW, that put me off PvP. That being said, I still support ideas like these because there is a market for them, even if I'm not in that target demographic.

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It's the very nature of competitive games. No one wants to lose, it brings the worst of people out.

Another problem is everyone is touching themselves queuing shatter 24/7, shatter 24/7 is worse than that imo but yes 30 was a bad issue for them because im just feasting on them. We need a title that says The 30 Butcher or something :D. Jk but yes shatter 24/7 and noobs feeding is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Xdark93

i understand full well there were good intentions to enlist more players to pvp by opening it at level 30 and even giving exp as anincentive to play it but this is getting pretty sad and ridiculous that, that's the only reason people want to pvp..

before 4.0 pvp was a sport that we earned as endgame content something we could enjoy with friendly competition and some nice rewards for our labours.. but now its a "i dont care if i win anymore as long as i get my tomes and exp" sort of attitude which has ruined literally most of the pvp communities' overall fun and experience of pvp.

and since the level 30 people have been queing up they probably don't even know how to PvP in ffxiv i've been in countless matches where myself or others have tried to calmly explain things and teach these newer players how to PvP only for it to fall on deaf ears.. leading to more frustration and making us wanna quit playing PvP all together.

this post isn't to discourage new players from trying tho but what its for is to explain the problem and hopefully maybe come to a consensus on what needs to be done.
so this is my suggestion on how to fix PvP:
1. put the required level back to 50 so that way new players will have time to learn their job and be able to understand it better. level 30 is still too fresh and easy paced for newer players PvP is chaos and requires skill from the player to adapt to high end content with fast paced combat.
2. if we are going to have exp involved as a reward/compensation make a new mode for it pls SE call it "PvP Levelling" or something to that effect so that way for those who just want exp and tomes can do so in that mode and the veterans can enjoy healthy and enjoyable competition in normal pvp.
3.establish an auto-dismissal for all players inside a match that kicks them if they idle for more than 3mins

i have hopes that the development team is reading our posts and discussing ideas such my own listed above^ and hope they sincerely consider our opinions on the discussion to provide a better PvP experience for us all.

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I hate to break it to you but 30 was always the entry to PvP, just was restricted to some mode I don't remember what. (was this changed in HW?) Regardless restricting to to lv 50 does nothing to fix any of your problems listed.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I do not think PvP rank or level will help give any kind of filter, after all , I was called clueless feast pvp:
https://i.gyazo.com/43ae3b5013d9c89b...1c67f5e431.png
https://i.gyazo.com/171c5e2b8a9fe731...e2aef731f6.png

It is likely you wanna gate it though some achievement though 8s to show you have some amount of experience with rank feast. [100 wins or something for example] (I am not sure what would be deemed enough)
https://i.gyazo.com/71b0484392299e4d...ee77bff10d.png
You can get PvP rank 50 though frontlines, so it is not a good indicator for feast.

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and yet I still do not magically get PvP (I am sure I do not know true coordination of having a static but I get the basic ideas) regardless what you see in the quoted was still called out for not knowing PvP, so it is not a fix, and all those issues existed in the past.

Before 4.0 everything was dead but end level because the game assumed everyone must be cap level. So that statement is also false.

The exp rewards are slow compared what you get in Deep, esp after the lose = less exp update. So I am clueless what motivates people to do it for exp anymore.

The auto kick exists and it is 2 minutes. It is an issue in frontlines that you can be kicked out before the match starts because the prep is too long of a timer. I been kicked before as the screen was just started to fade black and the match did not start yet.

PvP needs to be more accessible and remain that way like it is now so we do not have ultra long queues. Back during near release of HW when a high number of people was 60 and i wasn't, something of the likes of 3.1-3.2, I queued for frontlines as I did my main thing, crafting. I kept the computer on all night and queue did not pop yet. Did you know queue wait time caps at 999 minutes and 99 seconds? (Meaning it will not track time when it hits that) You may see that again if you try to resist access and give little reward to do so for non level cap players.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

From what I can gather, the people who want this wouldn't mind the super long queue times, so long as it gets rid of those who are just milking the system for XP, tomes, etc. And to me, PvP is meant to be this cutthroat "Do it perfectly or uninstall" sort of game mode. At least, from my experiences with MOBAs and MMOs with PvP. If you were less than perfect, you were considered not good enough to play the game. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems people want that super competitive spirit back in PvP.

EDIT: It was the hyper-caustic attitude in PvP in various games, from CoD, to LoL, Smite, HOTS, heck even WoW, that put me off PvP. That being said, I still support ideas like these because there is a market for them, even if I'm not in that target demographic.

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PvP in FFXIV for the most part did not do that (Toxicy for playing not perfect) and always had the problems the TC is listing. All the proposed changes would fix nothing but make queue timers longer.

I don't mind the level 30 pvp entry, but they probably should exclude it from ranked feast.

Those guys need to stay in PoTD where they belong, where those who don't know how to play their jobs seem to gather, and yet they still don't understand the PvP-condensed version of their jobs.

I will echo the sentiment that level 30 is totally fine, so long as it isn't ranked.

More often than not, un-ranked PvP is like trying to herd cats...so I don't think being level 30 and being fresh to the job makes much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I hate to break it to you but 30 was always the entry to PvP, just was restricted to some mode I don't remember what. (was this changed in HW?) Regardless restricting to to lv 50 does nothing to fix any of your problems listed.

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Level 30 PVP was the fold. I tried it once but no one was playing it (big surprise). If I remember correctly they removed it when they added the feast which no one was playing it so I don't think anyone noticed TBH.

Pvp (24man) is a giant zergfest anyway (to be honest, in all the pvp I've done, it's just been a giant zerg). Plus the skillset/gameplay is different than lv. 50+/pve. So the entire argument is moot. Whether they're lv. 30, 50, or 70 nothing will change. Isn't there preformed ranked feast matches? If so, go do them with a premade group.

Frontline isn't zergfest, it's the team that knows how to *hit* and use their buttons better than the opposition, and doesn't do the most dumb things.

Hitting buttons is apparently hard for some people in PvE as it shows with the lower-end putting up low DPS, so obviously that carries over to PvP even when they have only half the buttons. RIP.

Hi, Lace Valeria, long time PvPer and PvP-related content maker. Just wanted to add my two cents on this one:

PvP has held a bad rep in this game for the longest time, for all the wrong reasons. On one hand, you have such damaging statements as "this isn't a PvP focused game", or "PvP doesn't belong in a Final Fantasy game", yet devs managed to answer the demand of the community that wanted it. It wasn't a solid answer, and it's always been imperfect with sparse support and very little from the devs to attempt to properly teach or explain it, but the REAL issue - if I may be so honest - is the players.

People tried it, performed poorly, or worse, approached it half-heartedly and had a bad experience. "PvP in this game sucks!" became the impression, and they told others. Couple that with the disdain others already had/have for PvP because of experiences in other games, PvP became something to avoid. Twitch chats spammed with sleeping/snoring emotes on the rare occasions that PvP is actually mentioned in a Live Letter, along with "Nobody cares! Go on to something else!", "Lol, there's PvP in this game?", or the worst one "I hate PvP because [insert reasons not based on the actual experience the player had since they never tried it]". It became accepted standard to hate, be wary of, and avoid PvP simply because of bad PR and to a degree, peer pressure.

Meanwhile, those of us that tried it, learned by experience and from others, and discovered we liked it had to deal with the fallout of this. You could literally feel the off switch flip in people's heads if you mentioned PvP. People excitedly ask you where you got a piece of gear or mount or minion, and when you say from PvP, all interest is lost immediately. Worst of all, you have people that - even before XP was offered - simply wanted to show up, refuse to help or try, but reap the benefits of it. "Oh I don't PvP/I'm just here for the [reward]/Nobody cares [in response to good advice given], it's not a real competitive mode anyways." Simply put, people want to win for the big rewards, but they don't want to learn. Offers to teach are met with defiance or indifference, and then you've got the ones who subscribe to all the bad notions of it and simply propagate it. "PvP is toxic, that's why they banned chat", but then they're the first ones to get nasty with a teammate, or start spamming "Nice Job" when they make a mistake and lose for it.

I might sound mean to say it, but PvP as it is now is the product of what you've made it. Let me clarify: there's nothing wrong with trying to make it accessible earlier, and despite some of the unnecessary sacrifices of they system, introducing people to it earlier can be a good thing. But fact is - and I say this as someone who loved what it was enough to learn it properly - people didn't want to learn it when it was good, accessible, but imperfect, and even now that it's "more accessible" there's even less excuse for not knowing. You truly get out what you put in, PvE or PvP. If you want a better experience, you have to experience it better.

In fairness, the coming practice modes and cross server functionalities may serve to help players both new and experienced to enjoy it more. I for one am hoping so.