Pregen v. Mid-pull Regen & Tank Responsibility

I've been in a few threads lately that talk about prepull regens in dungeons and how this causes unnecessary stress on the tank. There is even a whole thread dedicated to this conversation now (which is fair, everyone has problems to share on a forum) but what I think is getting muddled is the difference between a prepull regen (or 'pregen' as it's been called) and a mid-pull regen.

I'm going to denounce pregens right here because a real pregen is stupid and almost always overhealing. I'm also going to say that I'm sure some people still do legit pregens and those people are wrong. Premature defense of myself aside...

The start of this issue lies in the tanking community - some of you pull single packs, some pull from boss to boss when it's available to you (looking at you Shisui) and some of you vary between these extremes in a single run. I understand that you recieve pressure from DPS and healers alike to play certain ways, sometimes even in contradiction to each other, but ultimately you are still making these decisions and thus are responsible for them.

Because of this healers rarely know what to anticipate in terms of a pull and as any WHM or AST worth their MP will tell you regens are the first line of defense we have to extend our DPS uptime. If we think, for any reason, that you've stopped to set up shop and kill the things we are going to regen you and get to work melting mobs. If you then decide to keep moving that regen is not a 'pregen' for the next pack but rather a regen for this fight I thought we were doing that you're running away from.

I once had a tank who layed down a waymark where he was stopping the pull. It didn't help much the first time because I had no way to know what it meant but each pull after that was nice and smooth. I'm not saying this needs to become a thing but it certainly was helpful.

The next issue that needs to be addressed is that sometimes your tank is going to die. If we have just ended a fight where I used Swiftcast, Tetra and Bene (so most bosses or larger trash pulls) I have no large insta-heals for you. My choices are limited to regening you on WHM or trying a Cure II and hoping you dont get out of range/around a corner/so much of a lead on me (because, lets face it, you are probably sprinting) that I can't catch up and heal you enough once everything starts fully smacking you. I'd rather regen you and catch a little aggro than have you die and us wipe because now half the enemies in this dungeon are looking at me like dinner.

My point in all this is that there are multiple reasons a tank may find himself walking into a pack of mobs with a regen ticking on him and not all of them are lazy/stubborn/stupid healers. I regularly do this now and it is generally not an issue unless the tank is so far ahead of me I can't catch him because there are no enemies that are killing me with auto attacks before I make it into Flash range and he is probably in the middle of generating AoE threat anyways because megapulls.

Remember guys- there is more than one side to every argument.

Couldn't you denounce it in the Regen thread itself instead of starting a new one?

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Couldn't you denounce it in the Regen thread itself instead of starting a new one?

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Because my post is not only addressing that argument but rather the influx of that complaint I've observed lately.

Because there is someone in there I don't wish to engage with for personal reasons.

Please only post things of substance or value, thanks.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Because my post is not only addressing that argument but rather the influx of that complaint I've observed lately.

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Doesn't justify needing to create an entirely new thread about it.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Because there is someone in there I don't wish to engage with for personal reasons.

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http://i.imgur.com/8J3eCBA.png

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Please only post things of substance or value, thanks.

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http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...87/356/d6f.jpg

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Because my post is not only addressing that argument but rather the influx of that complaint I've observed lately.

Because there is someone in there I don't wish to engage with for personal reasons.

Please only post things of substance or value, thanks.

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Your post is relevant to the other regen thread- should have just put it there and added to a healthy discussion. If there is someone you don't want to engage with then you don't have to, but I fail to see how making a new thread stops that exactly.

I echo ErrykS's substantive and valuable post.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Please only post things of substance or value, thanks.

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Perhaps take your own advice, as there could've been a post of substance or value in place of yet another regen post.

I think the most important part of this game is to communicate with your fellow players. Its best to ask people what type of run this is going to be, this way you will anticipate on what your next action will be. I do not cast regen on tanks when they start pulling, but there have been times where a tank is a bit slow or a dps attacks a mob and the tank runs back, the tank's HP is dropping so I cast regen, there is nothing wrong with it. At the end of the day I reckon the group prefers the tank pulling agro back over a wipe.

I've been leveling Pld to 70, and I've had a few runs where I was "Pregen'd" most of the time, and I'm surprised this is even a complaint... At most, I feel like the worst case scenario is that the healer is pretentiously yelling at you for getting aggro for a few seconds because of the regen they cast on you, otherwise you pretty much know exactly where the mobs are going to go once you're in their line of sight and it takes all of 5 seconds to flash/overpower/unleash them back onto yourself, especially with tank stance. I mean, I'm just a casual player, and I'm only basing this on personal tanking experience, but it doesn't seem like something to fly into a desk-pounding rage over.

I mean, unless you're into rage-induced desk abuse, whatever floats your airship... >_>;

It's the annoyance.

Let's go ahead and put it like this for the healers: If a DPS is purposely not running out of "the bad" and taking easily avoidable damage, would that not annoy a healer with having to upkeep?

Same as a tank that has to stop, turn around, run to the healer restablish aggro then move on again.

It seems minimal effort, but if it constantly happens, the time stacks up and the party ends up wasting time.

It's all for the sake of a clean and effortless run.

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Originally Posted by otarolgam

It's the annoyance.

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Pretty much this. There's things in this game that, albeit not game-crashingly horrendous, are still irritating.
I leveled my warrior to 70 and PLD to 63 or so, and in most leveling dungeons (the ones of level high enough to have unlocked regen skills) I had a regen cast on me the moment the last pack was down - despite the fact that I don't sprint to the next pack and also despite the fact that I don't really do big pulls in leveling dungeons (for a number of reasons BESIDES healer's skill).

There was this one white mage that went beyond that and actually used med2 after each pack was killed, so statusoff isn't much help. Wasn't DPSing, or doing much of anything at all really. Just why.

Mid pull regens if tank's dropping a tad more than they should be - ok.
Regen in small pulls when most of that will be overhealing - still ok.
Overhealing before a pull though. Why.
I mean, I judge tanks hard for popping cooldowns 10 seconds before a fight, I sure as hell am not gonna toss out heals for nothing :/

Regardless. At the end of the day I am going to pull the add and hold aggro. Or even or not

It's not really that big of a deal. I just stand close to the healer and pick the mobs up when stuff like that happens.

I'm wondering if some tanks are annoyed by regen before a pull, are they going to rage quit in trials and raids when adds pop up while the MT is still tanking the boss and both healers are throwing out full-strength heals left right and center, sometimes with heal-over-time effects running on the whole party?

My thing is, it's more unnecessary added work.
That's it.
Healer - Casts Regen.
Tank - Runs in.
Mobs - Gunhoe to healer.
Healer - Almost dead and running around like a chicken with no head.
Tank - Runs, follows healer, DPS trying to help, time is being wasted.

People rebuttal can say "Oh well let the healers run to you!"
Not all healers do that, also I'm a tank and I do not need your help to manage or collect aggro.
Like I said in the other topic, don't make peoples jobs harder for no reason...Even though it's not
hard to really do all that, it's unnecessary. You guys want speed runs? Well stop doing all that
extraness then. :/

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I'm wondering if some tanks are annoyed by regen before a pull, are they going to rage quit in trials and raids when adds pop up while the MT is still tanking the boss and both healers are throwing out full-strength heals left right and center, sometimes with heal-over-time effects running on the whole party?

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Ironically adds in trials and raids are actually easier to pick up IMO since you can already be on top of their spawn when they spawn so there is no need to cover the distance to be in range (which is what pre-regen messes with the most) if you prep and if there are multiple adds they are usually clumped and they kinda sit there for an extra 3 seconds before aggroing. There's also more than one tank making it even easier. Some of the new SB dungeons have mobs that run at you immediately.

Well... regen aggro is a weird annoyance to have in the game... am I wrong to think that lingering regen effects should not generate enmity? Put enmity on the initial spell cast, but after that it generates no more enmity for the HoT ticks. Would there be a downside to this change? Then prepull regen would no longer be dangerous or incorrect or worthy of discussion, fixed.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The start of this issue lies in the tanking community - some of you pull single packs, some pull from boss to boss when it's available to you (looking at you Shisui) and some of you vary between these extremes in a single run. I understand that you recieve pressure from DPS andhealers alike to play certain ways, sometimes even in contradiction to each other, but ultimately you are still making these decisions and thus are responsible for them.

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I have an issue with this, as someone playing all the roles. Yeah part of the problem is the tanks, overpulling when your party can't handle it, you need to test the party first. With that said this also means it is a DPS and healer skill gap issue as well. Today I was doing lv 67 DF.. that castle.. as a lv 67 PLD. So naturally my want for pulling more then one pack is going to be reserved. But I am willing to try if DPS/healer is good enough. Pulled those 3 troops and after 20 sec I said, nope, its not happening, min pulls will be the thing for this run. DPS was way too slow for it and the healer made me nervous (on pulls after that)

With that said, I am not going to fit getting regen AFTER the first group, because by the time I get the next groups > stand> aoe, they are all on me, it is much easier to manage a mid regen then a true pre-regen. (I had an ast in regen duainal .. w/e it is spelled, and he preregen me off it ( I was not fully paying attention and thought it was shield. Welp I did notice the green dot and got it but after that pull I talked about if they wanted to really use regen and if they did, not to do it prepull, or use shields for prepull. I waited for them to change stance/ answer since I know how AST plays ( as said I play all roles and have some kind of clue on all jobs) AST went to shield stance and I went to pull again as he said something of the like of sorry. My reply was, it is fine, it is just would you rather me say nothing? then said something on the likes being open to criticism, run was fine after that.

As others said this could gone in the other thread though, but I am not gonna fit about it.

If only SE would give us a method of removing any party buff we receive from a party member... That would be just grand.

Pro-tip: If you REALLY need to pre-cast something on the tank to help calm the calamity that is your mammaries, play either SCH or AST and use shields.

I think we can all more or less accept the fact that pre-regen is dumb, but if it happens by mistake every now and again, I don't think it's a big deal. Healers should be able to keep themselves alive during the couple of whacks and / or one overpower it takes for the tank to take hate back.

Im sure people get like 10 dollars every time they tell others to put everything in the same thread.
The forum is DEAD let the others at least post something.

Simple fact, a tank that has pre regen on can dispel it , if healer re cast it tank and re cast before pull is over is not a tanks job to take responsibility for a poor sense healer because the healer couldn't wait an extra second. A tank can however ask not to have pre regen up, but that is annoying since it's basic 101 and should have learned that way before level 50.