Dropping Grit

Hey fellow tankers, I need advice on dropping tank stance. Specifically, dropping grit stance (I main DRK) in a 100% PUG environment.

I live a PUG life and have no static. I've tried researching about dropping tank stance and most of it are under optimal settings. My question is, do you drop tank stance in PUGs? I'm referring to all group content from 4 man to end game content. I've done a little trial and error on contents that I'm overgeared with, and I always have a hard time with aggro holding.

Example, in lakshimi EX, some OT will always stay in tank stance. This forces me to stay in tank stance as well. For others that don't, they provoke to stay in 2nd aggro list but if I drop tank stance, we're gonna ping-pong the boss left and right.

Before I move on, I would like to state that I'm looking to optimize my, and only mine, tanking abilities in PUG settings. I'm just looking to enjoy content and not waste time telling others what they should do. I can accept staying in tank stance.

For 4 man, it's easier to manage but I still lose aggro sometimes (especially RDM) if I open with only 1 PS before dropping Grit.

For now, for 4 man, this is my opener after trial and error.

UnMend > BP > HS > Salted Earth > SS > plunge > PS > DAC&S > full DA SE combo > Drop grit > HS > BW and take it from there.

Uses up the duration of BP, gain blood for delirium and burns mana for immediate use of BW after dropping grit. More importantly, it gains way more aggro than 1 PS. Also, it has the advantage of prolonging tank stance so DPS that let it rip without a care in the world, I can at least check the aggro and decide if I should stay in tank stance longer.

For 8 man, I also use the above opener, but fights last way longer and I find myself having to go back into grit due to aggro. I actually have higher DPS staying in tank stance all the way rather than going back into grit as it's rather awkward to go back into grit.

Against competent DPS, you will lose aggro with just a PS combo. What you can do is to DAPS for starting, then you drop Grit and go full SE combo, if you still need aggro do top up with normal PS combo.

There are bound to be times where you have to do double/triple PS combo in Grit before going Gritless in some extreme cases.

Another thing to note is Shirk. While it doesn't help you as MT, if the OT has it there is no aggro problem with the OT. It's sadly undervalued and underused.

If DPS use their agro reduction during CD usage you should be fine. But from my own experience, randoms DDs don't do that. However, good DDs are also rare so, in general, you will have an easy time staying out of tank stance if you build a good amount during at first.

As a Paladin what I do is: Shield Lob -> Rage of Alone combo weaving CoS and SW -> Goring Blade Combo -> Sword Oath and I never had to do another Rage of Alone combo ever during the whole fight.

Like others are saying, it's really going to depend on the quality of your PUGs. As paladin in 4 man bosses, I usually open with a tank stance Halone/oGCDs then just Sword Oath DPS. However, in a longer fight if one damage dealer is doing significantly higher DPS than the other, they can catch up. As for 8 man content, it's really on a case-by-case basis. Lakshmi and Neo Exdeath have their own special hate requirements, but other than that it generally depends on
-Do you have a Ninja?
-Are your DPS using their hate reduction skills?
-Do you have a Samurai or Monk? (they both have worse hate reduction than the other DPS)
-If you have a WHM, are they using hate reduction where appropriate? (AOE heals can mess you up on some things)
-Are you and the OT Shirking effectively?
For a PUG it might be safe to assume on the first pull that Ninjas won't shadewalker (and they DEFINITELY won't smoke bomb), Samurai and Monk aren't slotting Diversion, healers never look at the hate bar and overuse AOE heals, and the OT never shirks. In that case I just suck it up and use Shield Oath for a little longer than I'd like to and replace some RAs with Halone when I can fill in the MP gaps with Sheltron. That last part doesn't really apply to DRK, though.

p.s. always commend ninjas.

You are a tank.
Grit reduces damage taken, emnity aside.
How is this even a question?

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

You are a tank.
Grit reduces damage taken, emnity aside.
How is this even a question?

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This. Even if you were trying to maximize damage while MTing, I don't think Grit damage is -that- much less less that non-Grit damage. In raw numbers, yes, there is a very clear difference, but your MP regen in Grit is so much higher, which translates to more DA and TBN usage, which in turn means higher damage on Siphon Slash and Souleater, and more DA+Bloodspiller.

Yes, if you're OTing, being out of grit shouldn't even be a question, but as MT, I can't honestly say that I really see any reason to be out of Grit outside of Lakshmi's jump or other similar circumstance.

^Terrible advice. The increased MP from Grit Syphon strike is a moot point, when Bloodweapon gains you so much more MP, Bloodgeneration + Attackspeed while having no Grit penalty.

On dropping Grit, watch how the damage goes. General rule is, if a boss is busy casting mechanics, he wont autoattack you, meaning you're taking little to no damage, which makes your grit migitation useless.
Your Grit migitation is also less relevant in raidaoe phases.
If everyone is taking 10k raidaoe damage and you reduce it to 8k raidaoe damage thanks to tankstance ONLY on yourself on top of having a personal healer-regen, that 2k extra migitation thanks to grit was also useless, as the healers still have to use aoe healing speals that heal for 10k HP for everyone else, which will hit everyone including you, the tank. Resulting into unnecessary Overheal.
And Lakshmi/Susano cast a lot of mechanics and plenty of raid aoe. Also watch out for other relevant downtime.

1 word：never.

Also living the pug life, and while I don't tank savage myself I bring a friend that does. It depends on the group comp and whether or not the DPS use their aggro management tools. When we pug savage, we have a group of 3 DPS and one tank - the rest of our party is made up of randoms. At the very least, the 3 of us who play DPS use our aggro management abilities frequently and we've never had a problem. Typically our random DPS is either not good enough to come close to taking aggro or they use their abilities as well.

If anything, we had one O1S group where our friend had to stay in grit the whole fight because the healers were terrible (and he still died to auto attack damage, even with grit on) but that's not the norm. With a NIN he can get away with one powerslash combo before dropping grit; without one, he does a few combos before dropping it. If your issue is with the OT, ask them to shirk you on cooldown if it's not needed for any swaps to help you maintain aggro.

The short answer to this is there is no one answer.

Slightly longer answer: in practice I will usually do a few pulls in grit then judge how much stress I'm under to keep hate/be healed. If things seem to be fine I'll ask the healers if they are ok with stance dancing. If we aren't clearing or people need babysitting from the healers then I take the position that it's not my job to optimize my dps, it's my job to make things smooth. However, I don't live the pug life sooo.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

This. Even if you were trying to maximize damage while MTing, I don't think Grit damage is -that- much less less that non-Grit damage. In raw numbers, yes, there is a very clear difference, but your MP regen in Grit is so much higher, which translates to more DA and TBN usage, which in turn means higher damage on Siphon Slash and Souleater, and more DA+Bloodspiller.

Yes, if you're OTing, being out of grit shouldn't even be a question, but as MT, I can't honestly say that I really see any reason to be out of Grit outside of Lakshmi's jump or other similar circumstance.

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There is absolutely nothing in lakshmi ex that requires tank stance for mt. I can't really see any reason to *not* be outside grit.

To OP, you should be opening with a dark arts'd power slash. It's much better now than it was in heavensward, and is the best way to pull now to ensure the mt doesn't lose more dps than you need to (outside warrior equilibrium pulling, but should probably just leave that to static situations). If you get an OT that insists on being in tank stance, slap them and tell them to stop. Lakshmi ex aggro shenanigans are best dealt with through intelligent use of provoke and shirk.

Yea, I understand it being a case by case basis. It's just that in a 100% random setting in every queue, it's quite difficult to gauge and to simply open with 1 combo then drop grit is a leap of faith that I can't bring myself to do. Yet, more often that not, I find myself in such a huge aggro lead while taking almost no damage that I'm handicapping myself and my team on taking a damage penalty. For starters, I always look out for such situations and drop grit immediately. It's those in-between areas that's a pain to deal with.

I'm just asking around for other tanks like me living the PUG life if, maybe, there's a good way to consistently tank without Grit. To be clear, I'm not insisting on dropping grit. I've no problems staying in tank stance forever. My path is to simply optimize my own tanking to be the best I can be in a random setting.

So, let me just ask a few direct question that can help me out after reading all you guys' suggestion.

Assuming that no one in the party made use of their enmity manipulation, staying in tank stance is the most optimal?

What are the signs of party members using their enmity reduction from a tank perspective? Do you just have to know the skill effect and see it on the fly?

Which boss is the easiest to tank without grit? 4 man and 8 man.

Do you take into account your team composite if you can drop grit sooner or later? Not talking about skill here since skill is pretty much universal.

Another point I've just realized myself is that since I've never drop tank stance until I'm confident the DPS can't catch up, the DPS themselves don't have a reason to use their enmity reduction. So good players or not, I guess I have to live the edge(pun intended) and let them catch up?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

This. Even if you were trying to maximize damage while MTing, I don't think Grit damage is -that- much less less that non-Grit damage. In raw numbers, yes, there is a very clear difference, but your MP regen in Grit is so much higher, which translates to more DA and TBN usage, which in turn means higher damage on Siphon Slash and Souleater, and more DA+Bloodspiller.

Yes, if you're OTing, being out of grit shouldn't even be a question, but as MT, I can't honestly say that I really see any reason to be out of Grit outside of Lakshmi's jump or other similar circumstance.

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Someone doesn't know how to tank in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Leximus

Yea, I understand it being a case by case basis. It's just that in a 100% random setting in every queue, it's quite difficult to gauge and to simply open with 1 combo then drop grit is a leap of faith that I can't bring myself to do. Yet, more often that not, I find myself in such a huge aggro lead while taking almost no damage that I'm handicapping myself and my team on taking a damage penalty. For starters, I always look out for such situations and drop grit immediately. It's those in-between areas that's a pain to deal with.

I'm just asking around for other tanks like me living the PUG life if, maybe, there's a good way to consistently tank without Grit. To be clear, I'm not insisting on dropping grit. I've no problems staying in tank stance forever. My path is to simply optimize my own tanking to be the best I can be in a random setting.

So, let me just ask a few direct question that can help me out after reading all you guys' suggestion.

Assuming that no one in the party made use of their enmity manipulation, staying in tank stance is the most optimal?

What are the signs of party members using their enmity reduction from a tank perspective? Do you just have to know the skill effect and see it on the fly?

Which boss is the easiest to tank without grit? 4 man and 8 man.

Do you take into account your team composite if you can drop grit sooner or later? Not talking about skill here since skill is pretty much universal.

Another point I've just realized myself is that since I've never drop tank stance until I'm confident the DPS can't catch up, the DPS themselves don't have a reason to use their enmity reduction. So good players or not, I guess I have to live the edge(pun intended) and let them catch up?

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1. Like what I mentioned, do a DA's PS combo before going Gritless and you will have to top up enmity less. DAPS is no longer a meme because SE buffed it.

2. Staying in tank stance is fine but really not optimal especially if you are doing any of the bosses, once you are out of Grit it's still better to use PS combo to top up aggro.

3. 4man is the easiest because they really don't hit hard and hardly do tank busters for the most part.

4. There is no dropping Grit later, only how much you have to top up later on without Grit. Unless if you are already almost fully geared, expect to do more enmity combo on bosses.

5. See point 4.

Edit: things will be harder to do as a tank as weeks go by, DPS will reach i340 and rip your aggro much easier and RHS accessories are a joke that crafted accessories are 'BiS'. The gap will mostly come from the STR scaling from accessories.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Someone doesn't know how to tank in FFXIV.

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I tank just fine, thank you.

Am OT that stays in tank stance is just a badly performing MT.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

1. Like what I mentioned, do a DA's PS combo before going Gritless and you will have to top up enmity less. DAPS is no longer a meme because SE buffed it.

2. Staying in tank stance is fine but really not optimal especially if you are doing any of the bosses, once you are out of Grit it's still better to use PS combo to top up aggro.

3. 4man is the easiest because they really don't hit hard and hardly do tank busters for the most part.

4. There is no dropping Grit later, only how much you have to top up later on without Grit. Unless if you are already almost fully geared, expect to do more enmity combo on bosses.

5. See point 4.

Edit: things will be harder to do as a tank as weeks go by, DPS will reach i340 and rip your aggro much easier and RHS accessories are a joke that crafted accessories are 'BiS'. The gap will mostly come from the STR scaling from accessories.

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I see, so you do top up using PS. This is something I've never done. I always watch statics do their runs and they never touch PS after the opener, going full dps. I somehow tried to translate that into pug settings, forgetting the most basic solution. Just do enmity combo to gain back. lol

I'm going to test using 1 DAPS opener.

I find that you can get away with 1 DAPS if you have a ninja funnel you hate or an OT who will shirk you.

For the most part, you should drop grit when you have a healthy enmity lead or are playing with people who use their enmity reducing abilities. In dungeons this is a bit touch and go since tank stance is pretty useful on trash pulls, but when facing a boss and enmity is established it's usually safe to just drop it right off the bat. Use TBN to eat the larger hits, and pop your cooldowns intermittently to minimize fluff damage.

The people who insist on staying in tank stance don't know enough about tanking to actually have relevant advice on the matter.

Two DA PS combos will guarantee you being top in any fight. I personally just use one and feel it out from there, but it always lasts unless the fight is excessively long like Omega.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Never Dark Arts Power Slash. It's a pitiful one point modifier increase, and that's without factoring in the weaker damage. You are far better off turning Grit back on temporarily and doing either a DA + Souleater combo or a full Power Slash comboing, then dropping out again. This gives you a significantly higher lead so you won't have to Power Slash again for a while.

A good rule of thumb with PUGs, OP. If you have competent DPS, particularly a Samurai, Black Mage or Red Mage, start with Unmend and two Power Slash combos before dropping Grit. That should give you a solid lead through their respective "burst" phases. This assumes your co-tank isn't using Shrik or you don't have a Ninja.

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Since Stormblood, DA PS is twice the threat of PS itself.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Since Stormblood, DA PS is twice the threat of PS itself.

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I went back and checked. Seems like it was 4.01; the whole enmity update? Either way, I deleted that since it's wrong now.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I went back and checked. Seems like it was 4.01; the whole enmity update? Either way, I deleted that since it's wrong now.

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Can't tell precisely but I think it's an addition of the stormblood update. Nothing sure here, however it's usually enough for me to hold threat with pugs with no diversion, shadewalker or enmity generation from others.

as a MT grit depends of 2 things, emity and healer skill, ppl tend to speak about tank out tank stance on boss like you will always have a perfectly AST/SCH how shield you perfectly and a WHM/AST how manage he regens perfectly, thats false, more with pugs, grit offer much more to the team when you healer skill is unknow or just moderate, accidents deaths on tanks tend to be a lot much more punishing even more with tank swap mechanics how includes debuffs on youcan make you OT insta die in the next tankbuster.

but in the case you have 2 healers how know they job and work together well then no doubt get the emity lead and drop it, as a OT there is no excuse to stay in grit.

in the end depends more of you teammates.

Just out of curiosity though, those tanking in pug setting, do you guys just go for it? I.E drop grit after opener and if you die, you just accept it and stay in tank stance?

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Originally Posted by Leximus

Just out of curiosity though, those tanking in pug setting, do you guys just go for it? I.E drop grit after opener and if you die, you just accept it and stay in tank stance?

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The issue with going out of tank stance is not you dying(unless you don't use CDs at important moments), it's you losing aggro to dps. But yes if the healers are struggling for some reason and I die I usually cut my loses and stay tank stance, but I have yet to see a moment like this. If it's savage though, for pugs, I am more to remaining in tank stance until I can confirm the healers can keep me up.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Can't tell precisely but I think it's an additionof the stormblood update. Nothing sure here, however it's usually enough for me to hold threat with pugs with no diversion, shadewalker or enmity generation from others.

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This change was made in the initial 4.0 release patch, and its honestly very interesting, and a design decision that a lot of mathematical care and precision went into (unlike a lot of the rest of our kit, sadly).

To be precise, Power Slash has a 5.5x modifier and DA Power Slash is an 11x modifier, essentially granting you a second combo bonus Power Slash in enmity.

Not only is this really good snap hate, but it actually is DPS efficient in Grit, as you get the enmity of almost 2 Power Slash combos in 1, and if the next combo is a SE combo, you get the mana back and a 30 potency increase (before the Grit penalty) from DAing it and thus saving yourself an extra Power Slash. BUT. If you DAPS and then immediately drop Grit, things get interesting:

DAPS+SE in Grit
13284 threat potency
1096 damage potency
9480 mana

2 non-DA PS in Grit
13878 threat potency
1072 damage potency
9480 mana (+/-0 mana and +594 threat for a 24 potency loss)

DAPS w/grit+ SE out of Grit
12094 threat potency
1236 damage potency
8280 mana (-1200 mana and -1190 threat for an increase of oh my goodness would you look at that, *140* potency... math is fun. +164 potency if compared to 2PS.)

Ergo a DA spent on Power Slash, assuming you drop Grit immediately afterwards, is a gain of at least 140 potency just like DA almost everywhere else. Pretty neat. Thus, using DA on Power Slash and immediately dropping Grit afterwards is DPS optimal (its almost like it was designed for us to drop Grit... i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g...), but, if you are in a situation where you must stay in Grit, its kind of a waste, and you definitely should never DAPS out of Grit, because it is only when starting in Grit and then leaving Grit that you can see a potency gain from it. However, if you are aiming to not be in Grit at all not even in your opener, you may or may not want to DAPS anyway:

4 PS combos = 10280 threat potency, 2680 damage potency, 9480 mana
2 DAPS + 2 PS = 13580 threat potency, 2680 damage potency, 4680 mana, 2400 potency factoring in mana loss
2 DAPS + 2 SE = 9840 threat potency, 2740 damage potency, 7080 mana, 2600 potency factoring in mana loss
2 DAPS + 1 PS + 1 SE = 11710 threat potency, 2710 damage potency, 5880 mana, 2500 potency factoring in mana loss
1 DAPS + 2 PS + 1 SE = 10060 threat potency, 2710 damage potency, 8280 mana, 2640 potency factoring in mana loss
1 DAPS + 1 PS + 2 SE = 8190 threat potency, 2740 damage potency, 9480 mana

Honestly a single DAPS + shadewalker is probably enough to ensure that you get your opener off without losing hate, and then you can do some maintenance PS combos once raid buffs have fallen off. However if you find that you can get away with regular PS out of Grit my guess is this is optimal. Outside of Grit, the fewer PS you use and the fewer of those PS you DA the better, but if you ever PS in Grit, DA ultimately maximizes its efficiency assuming you're planning on leaving Grit again soon. The ultimate goal and design of DA PS is for it to buy you 3 extra GCDs out of your tank stance, and it succeeds at this, if my math is correct (because if those 3 extra GCDs are a SE combo and thus 700 potency, you're gaining 20% on that potency, and 20% of 700 is 140, the baseline increase of DA). But if you're never in Grit to begin with, I'd say the 3.x rules hold true.

Wow, this is nice info. I've already tried DAPS opener into dropping grit in 4 man and it works well. It's just that I'm so used to tank stance that my mistakes become very obvious when dropping grit and it just shows how crappy my tanking is. For now, I'm going to concentrate on dropping grit for 4 man bosses first If I can't burn my CD properly in 4 man, pretty sure it's gonna be a disaster in 8 man lol.

As a samurai I have a request to all my MT out there...

1. Please don't die

2. If you are good at not dying then feel free to drop grid

3. Please don't lose aggro or else I have to be the samurai tank

4. Repeat step 1

I always PUG and never drop Grit as MT, too much of a risk.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

As a samurai I have a request to all my MT out there...

1. Please don't die

2. If you are good at not dying then feel free to drop grid

3. Please don't lose aggro or else I have to be the samurai tank

4. Repeat step 1

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Then use diversion. It hasn't happened yet but when someone is extremely close to stealing aggro and has yet to use any aggro manipulation, I wonder if I should just let them die. I know its super petty and bad etc etc but as far as I am concerned from 4.0 onwards aggro is a group effort. Every class gets aggro reduction skills and tanks get shirk for 8 mans. I see aggro manipulation used almost never outside preformed and It's almost always a comm from me if I am tanking.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

I see aggro manipulation used almost never outside preformed and It's almost always a comm from me if I am tanking.

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I saw a sam in df use diversion once...after they took aggro.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Then use diversion. It hasn't happened yet but when someone is extremely close to stealing aggro and has yet to use any aggro manipulation, I wonder if I should just let them die. I know its super petty and bad etc etc but as far as I am concerned from 4.0 onwards aggro is a group effort. Every class gets aggro reduction skills and tanks get shirk for 8 mans. I see aggro manipulation used almost never outside preformed and It's almost always a comm from me if I am tanking.

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Believe me I tried diversion and kept it on cool down and it just not enough lol don't know what the OT is doing with his shirk or MT with his aggro management

All I know as a samurai I can end up 70% of the time been samurai tank when the tank drop his tank stance

With the kind of damage Sam pulls I believe it, if that is the case then it is entirely on the MT.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

With the kind of damage Sam pulls I believe it, if that is the case then it is entirely on the MT.

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I cried every time when I pull aggro off the tank I usually end up dead when in savage

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Originally Posted by Leximus

Just out of curiosity though, those tanking in pug setting, do you guys just go for it? I.E drop grit after opener and if you die, you just accept it and stay in tank stance?

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I don't main DRK, I main PLD, but I'd say it's generally the same wrt this debate. I do one hate combo then drop stance in regular pugs, I can always put it back on if things go up the creek. That said, unless you've got savage level dps going all out you can hold aggro with a couple topup aggro combos out of stance usually.

In savage, even pug savage, I will assume that the people there deserve to be and drop tank stance. If I crumple with adequate cooldown usage, I will raise an eyebrow and call out the healers. Most of the time I go in with a SCH, but he's not always available, and he despairs at how much of the time he's the best at both hps and dps in pugs.


While progging I don't tend to turn off tank stance except in phases that both I and the healers are familiar with. For example, I only just started switching to sword for the start of 3s, and I'm 100% shield for books because all I can hear in call is the healers screaming half the time...

FTR, I've never lost aggro to a SAM using diversion at the right times with a single aggro combo > SwO. But I also have CoS and shield bash procs to keep me up there, I'm not sure if that's the case for DRK. SAMs are scary.

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

FTR, I've never lost aggro to a SAM using diversion at the right times with a single aggro combo > SwO. But I also have CoS and shield bash procs to keep me up there, I'm not sure if that's the case for DRK. SAMs are scary.

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It's about the same for the most part. I have never lost aggro to SAM or RDM nowadays, not even my static's SAM or RDM. Check my logs, the only few times where I lost aggro was if I was experimenting on Gritless pulling (on some turns is already a thing) or if I die or my OT dies when tanking.

The bigger part of the enmity story in Savage is Shirk. Shirk is OP and will either get nerfed or reworked in the near future, hopefully.

Drop DRK to survive the PUG life

Pick PLD instead

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Incomplete rotation

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And don't forget to Flash.

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

I don't main DRK, I main PLD, but I'd say it's generally the same wrt this debate. I do one hate combo then drop stance in regular pugs, I can always put it back on if things go up the creek. That said, unless you've got savage level dps going all out you can hold aggro with a couple topup aggro combos out of stance usually.

In savage, even pug savage, I will assume that the people there deserve to be and drop tank stance. If I crumple with adequate cooldown usage, I will raise an eyebrow and call out the healers. Most of the time I go in with a SCH, but he's not always available, and he despairs at how much of the time he's the best at both hps and dps in pugs.


While progging I don't tend to turn off tank stance except in phases that both I and the healers are familiar with. For example, I only just started switching to sword for the start of 3s, and I'm 100% shield for books because all I can hear in call is the healers screaming half the time...

FTR, I've never lost aggro to a SAM using diversion at the right times with a single aggro combo > SwO. But I also have CoS and shield bash procs to keep me up there, I'm not sure if that's the case for DRK. SAMs are scary.

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I've tried with 1 aggro opener into dropping grit these past few days and I'm so surprised on it working well. For 4 man dungeons, most of the time I don't even need to top up. Encounter usually ends when the DPSers caught up. The exceptions are RDM and SAM. RDM have a really nasty opener and SAM dps are naturally high even when they're not trying. When I have those 2 in my group, I open with old opener fully using BP duration. Right now, I'm trying to drop grit for omega normal and lakshmi. I think these 2 encounters are the easiest to train myself.