New Job Thief Concept

Edited due to feedback from Duelle
I would like to share an idea I have for thief. It is an advanced job branched off from Rogue.
Everything from Rogue is carried over and some things are augmented.

I am only going to list things that pertain to Thief.

Gambits are three modes a thief can operate out of.

The Larceny gambit deals with theft and absorption.
The Bamboozle gambit deals with confusion and debuffs.
The Dirty Fighting gambit deals with mostly raw damage increase.

There is some interplay but that is the bulk of it for the most part.

Anything I did not touch on is either because it applies to rogue or I overlooked it. I could not think of a new effect for Armor Crush.

Skills:

Cloud Of Dust- Level 2- Kicks up a cloud of dust that negates magical & physical damage up to 10% of maximum HP.
Duration: 20 sec

Kiss Of The Wasp: Level 38 Weaponskill
Delivers a deadly dagger strike resulting in damage with a potency of 340.

Additional Effect:
Grants a 5% chance the targeted normal enemy will die in one hit. If the effect procs the thief's hit points are reduced by 80%.

Kiss of The Viper: Level 42 Weaponskill
Death Blossom gets converted to Kiss Of The Viper. The thief jumps into the air and throws poisonous explosives around the battlefield to target an enemy and enemies near it with a potency of 90 leaving a poisonous cloud, any enemy who enters the cloud receives damage over time with a potency of 40 for 18 seconds.

Dirty Fighting: Level 54 Weaponskill
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
160 when executed from a target's flank.
160 when executed from a target's rear.

Combo Action: Any thief weaponskill
Front Combo Potency: 320
Flank Combo Potency: 280
Rear Combo Potency: 240

Additional Effects: Applies Startle debuff- Duration of Startle is 12 seconds

• Uses the rogue's ability for stealth, adding additional +5% bonus damage to any attacks or damage skill used when the target is inflicted with this debuff.
• You start with this move then any preceding damage skill or attack used after it during the duration of currently applied debuffs gains the damage bonus. It combos with anything in your skill set.
• Stealth gauge cost 10 for each damage skill used during the debuff duration.

Accomplice: Level 58 Active Skill
The thief can extend duration of the last damage over time skill used by a party member by 6 seconds upon casting on the same target. Cooldown is 5 seconds.
Stealth gauge cost is 10.


Collaborator: Level 60 Active Skill
The thief can increase the potency for one party member skill. Select party member, apply collaborator, the targeted members next skill casted gains a 5% potency increase.
Stealth gauge cost is 10.


Money Shot: Level 64 Weaponskill
Shoot 1000 coins from your crossbow.
Delivers physical damage with a potency of 400 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Stealth Gauge Cost: 80

Evisceration:-Level 68 Weaponskill
Deals damage with a potency of 600.
Stealth Gauge Cost: 80

Gambits: Level 30
Thief modes are called Gambits, there are 3 modes. Stuff listed below are gambits.
The thief gains the ability to use tools as well as a crossbow

Gambit 1- Larceny- Theft alters

Siphoning Shot-Level 15- Shoot an arrow with your crossbow healing you for 100 potency each shot instant cast.
Stealth gauge cost is 10.

Mug in this mode has 3 possibilities and places on hotbar.

• Life Steal:-Level 30- Absorbs 50% of damage dealt as Hit Points.
• Spirit Steal: -Level 30- Returns 50 TP each time executed.
• Reflex Steal:-Level 30- Grants +2 dexterity & movement speed + for 5 seconds each time executed.
• Dexterity stacks up to 10, the movement speed buff does not stack.

Jugulate:-Level 30- When used in this gambit, the next mug increases your critical hit rate by 10% for 15 seconds.

Refreshing Tonic:- Level 30 Weaponskill
Assassinate converts to Refreshing Tonic.Delivers an attack with a potency of 50.
The Infected enemy leave a toxic cloud if they die within 5 seconds, which will grants the thief and anyone with 5 yalms HP, MP, & TP regen for 9 seconds.

Lucky Blow:- Level 45 - Weaponskill
Trick Attack gets converted to Lucky Blow.
Delivers an attack with a potency of 240.
400 when executed from a target's rear.
Stealth gauge cost: 40

Allows the thief to make use of his/her applied debuffs, making Trick Attack more effective when the target is afflicted by two or more conditions.
Additional Effects:

• One applied debuff during trick attack= Absorbs 50% of damage dealt as Hit Points.
• If two debuffs are applied= The next Shot potency is increased by 50 potency.

Before level 45 the standard trick attack is in place of luckyblow.




Gambit 2- Bamboozle- Confuse alters

Enduring Agony Shot:-Level 15 Weapon Skill
Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 120.TP cost reduced to 100.
Extends the duration by Poison or toxic attacks by 6 seconds. It also increases the damage done by party members by 5% for the duration of the debuff.

Mug in this mode has 3 possibilities and places on hotbar.
These mug effects can only be max 10% total for all effects and do not stack with each other totals.
Example: You cannot get 10% on all effects, they can only add up to 10% together or singularly.

• Steal Defense: Level 15- Enemy defense decreases by 2% every time executed, stacks up to 10%.
• Steal Strength: Level 15- Enemy strength decreases by 2% every time executed, stacks up to 10%.
• Steal Mind: Level 15- Enemy magic defense decreases by 2% every time executed, stacks up to 10%.

Jugulate:- Level 30
When used the next mug inflicts blind on the target.

Mysterious Toxins:-Level 12 Weaponskill
Assassinate converts to Mysterious Toxins.Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
The Infected enemy leave a toxic cloud if they die within 5 seconds, which will deal debilitating damage to other enemies with a potency of 50 over 18 seconds.

Trick Attack:- Level 18-
Delivers an attack with a potency of 240.
400 when executed from a target's rear.
Rear Bonus: Increases target's damage taken by 10%
Duration: 10s
Can only be executed while under the effect of Hide.


Gambit 3- Dirty Fighting Damage mode

Explosive Shot:-Level 15 Weaponskill
The thief throws a canister of oil at an enemy. Then fires an explosive arrow with a potency of 120. That enemy receives a burning damage over time effect with a potency of 35 over 30 seconds.

Mug in this mode has 3 possibilities and places on hotbar.

Mug Critical: -Level 15- Ensures the next weaponskill following mug will be critical.
Mug Speed: - level 15- Replenishes 5 seconds to skills currently on cooldown.
Mug Twice: - Level 15- The next 2 weaponskills cost no TP.

Throat Stab:-Level 30- Jugulate gets converted to Throat Stab.
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
300 when executed from a target's front.

Additional Effect:
When used the next mug increases your critical damage by 10% for 15 seconds.

Deadly Toxins: Level 12 Weaponskill. Assassinate converts to Deadly Toxins.
Delivers an attack with a potency of 80.
The Infected enemy leave a toxic cloud if they die within 5 seconds, their body will explode which will deal poison damage to other enemies with a potency of 100 over 9 seconds.

Deathblow:- Level 45- Weaponskill- Trick Attack converted to DeathBlow in this mode.
Allows the thief to make use of his/her applied debuffs, making Trick Attack more effective when the target is afflicted by two or more conditions.

Additional Effects:
One applied debuff during trick attack= Rear Bonus: Increases target's damage taken by 12%
Duration: 15s

If two debuffs are applied=
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
500 when executed from a target's rear.
Stealth gauge cost: 80

Before level 45 the standard trick attack is in place of deathblow.

Traits:

Dual Wield Level 10
Attack Speed: +10%
Increases damage dealt via actions by 5%

Robber's Escape: Level 14
Sprint cooldown decreased by 5 seconds in combat.

Enhanced Dexterity Level 20
Increases dexterity by 8.

Flee: Level 20
The thief gains super sprint speed with same duration as other classes speed is similar to fully upgraded mounts in stormblood. Automatically executes when the sprint command is used in battle.
(Ninja fleet of foot is always on but slower, thief is only during sprint but faster)

Dual Wield II Level 45
Attack Speed: +25%
Increases damage dealt via actions by 10%

Enhanced Dexterity II Level 40
Increases dexterity by 16.

Enhanced Dexterity III Level 60
Increases dexterity by 24

Enhanced Trick Attack: Level 62
Allows the Thief to Trick attack at anytime provided hide is up and the cooldown is ready.

Enhanced Dirty Fighting:Level 64- Increased Stealth Gauge with each auto attack landed by 6.

Enhanced Hide: Level 66
Blend in with your surroundings, making it impossible for most enemies to detect you, but reducing movement speed by only 25% now. Has no effect on enemies 10 levels higher than your own, or certain enemies with special sight unless your stealth gauge is at a certain threshold of 70% plus.
Can be executed while in combat now.
Effect ends upon use of any action, including Hide.

Below are the gauges.
Yes the photos are ugly but just putting it in there to get the idea across.

http://i.imgur.com/Dw1XSei.png

The Trickery Gauge displays a number of things.
The coin and daggers show this info.
1.The coin tracks your currently applied debuffs via the coin numbers.

2.The daggers notify you when you can apply accomplice via the daggers
Dull color= No one to accomplice
Glowing color= You can accomplice

The Stealth Gauge displays the current amount of stealth a thief has accumulated. Stealth slowly builds in a thief's dagger through the successful execution of weaponskills that don't require stealth. Stealth is required to execute special moves. Any skill used between 80 to 100 stealth gains a 5% potency boost.
1.The cloak is white when no stealth is accumulated and completely dark when stealth is maxed.
And has a number showing current Stealth points inside the inner area of the cloak.

How do you place spoilers? I want to make it look neater but forgot how to make spoilers...

[HB] [ /HB] for spoiler boxes

Rogue is a Thief.

Thief turns into Ninja.

Been true since Final Fantasy I.

Unfortunately SE already said they would never have any Thief class in FFXIV because it just wouldn't fit into the lore to have a sanctioned guild of thieves. That's why they changed the name of Thief into Rogue, so Rogue is, in spirit, our Thief job for FFXIV

Edit:
Yoshi-P revealed during the stream that the Rogues were once thieves, who’ve changed into Rogues, so they’ll have their own story and guild to go with it. Otherwise, it would’ve been a little tricky to have an establishment of thieves in a city-state.

Taken from http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10...s-rogue-ninja/
I'm sure other sites/references/interviews say the same thing in different or more direct terms also

Edit#2:
Although they COULD have a guild out in the wilderness, IE one of the Xaela tribes might be thieves, but SE would have to be willing to have a job line start outside of a 2.0 area.
And thieves would actually have to have things to steal in the game, and considering Mug recently got reworked to yield no extra items in dungeons (I'm assuming it still works in the open world) I can't see SE properly implementing stealing in the game unless it exists solely inside of the job quests (similar to how BLU would learn skills). Because honestly, seeing the WoL pickpocketing would just be bad PR for the Scions.

Yeah maybe. But in XI there was Thief and Ninny.

Thanks Shurrikan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Unfortunately SE already said they would never have any Thief class in FFXIV because it just wouldn't fit into the lore to have a sanctioned guild of thieves. That's why they changed the name of Thief into Rogue, so Rogue is, in spirit, our Thief job for FFXIV

Edit:
Yoshi-P revealed during the stream that the Rogues were once thieves, who’ve changed into Rogues, so they’ll have their own story and guild to go with it. Otherwise, it would’ve been a little tricky to have an establishment of thieves in a city-state.

Taken from http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10...s-rogue-ninja/
I'm sure other sites/references/interviews say the same thing in different or more direct terms also

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So has there never been any outcast or people who have gone astray in other cults, religions, gangs?

Thiefs are awol rogues, there is the lore fix. Also thieves exist in all areas around the world regardless of beliefs so Yoshi is wrong here. The thieves would be no different than an outcast Samurai in their clan.

Edit: Also jobs don't have guilds, that is classes, so really it makes even more sense that way.

Quote:

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Although they COULD have a guild out in the wilderness, IE one of the Xaela tribes might be thieves, but SE would have to be willing to have a job line start outside of a 2.0 area.
And thieves would actually have to have things to steal in the game, and considering Mug recently got reworked to yield no extra items in dungeons (I'm assuming it still works in the open world) I can't see SE properly implementing stealing in the game unless it exists solely inside of the job quests (similar to how BLU would learn skills). Because honestly, seeing the WoL pickpocketing would just be bad PR for the Scions.

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Edit 2:
They can make two version of Thief.
Dow: Thief(Combat Orientated)
DoL: Treasure Hunter(Loot Oriented)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Unfortunately SE already said they would never have any Thief class in FFXIV because it just wouldn't fit into the lore to have a sanctioned guild of thieves.

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In all fairness, why should it have to be sanctioned? The original Marauder's guild wasn't. It was a pirate ship. Then again, Yoshida somehow felt the need to replace it, too, just to fill the space of the then-Musketeer guild and ensure there'd be no Gunner class, only to make Machinist, essentially a gunner job, one version later.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In all fairness, why should it have to be sanctioned? The original Marauder's guild wasn't. It was a pirate ship. Then again, Yoshida somehow felt the need to replace it, too, just to fill the space of the then-Musketeer guild and ensure there'd be no Gunner class, only to make Machinist, essentially a gunner job, one version later.

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I think that was not wanting to have a flat out Corsair job imo.

Also maybe having a WoL that is more morally gray, teetering on bad would be a nice change of pace or delivery.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I think that was not wanting to have a flat out Corsair job imo.

Also maybe having a WoL that is more morally gray, teetering on bad would be a nice change of pace or delivery.

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While I'd agree to that, too, I think a guild that is not expressly morally good actually allows more opportunity for moral agency by the WoL. A Thief's guild is the people in it and their actions; depending on their conditions and consequences, even criminal activity can be looked well upon by a playerbase. Streetling thieves in Ul'duh, for instance, probably wouldn't seem necessarily immoral; they're part of a frequently exploited and uncaring community that may requiring fending for oneself by any means necessary. Therein you already have a basis for some sort of emotional attachment that can push the player in balance between trying to improve their livelihoods and keep them moral/safe. Most likely there would also be some who take this too far, and it could then be on the WoL to determine what should be done about them.

A thieves guild also has implications of generally enjoyable mechanics such as hires, information networks, smuggling, and so forth, which could all end up highly interesting manipulables over the course of a storyline. To be honest, it's exactly because of all that Thieves Guilds have amounted to in other games that Yoshida may have wanted to avoid them; he'd then be under pressure to have a definitive mechanical and lore presence for other classes as well.

The gear that Rogues wear is even based off of the Artifact Armor that THF wears in XI. besides, Rogue/NIN already has:

-Mug
-Trick Attack
-Aeolian Edge
-Gust Slash

these were THF abilities and Weaponskills from XI

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Edit: Also jobs don't have guilds, that is classes, so really it makes even more sense that way.

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As for this, the Jobs of Paladin, Warrior, Astrologian, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, and Machinist, all have "guilds" that we know of. Just because we don't have access to a "guild", though we do in the case or AST and MCH, doesn't mean they don't exist. And those are just the ones we can confirm have "guilds". Although, the Bard quest seems to hint that a new "faction" is forming within the Quivers Hold. The Dark Knight quests seem to indicate that there is a place where DRK go to train. And the Summoner quests show a slight resurgence. I have not finished RDM so I can't say for certain. But as of right now only WHM, BLM, and SCH don't have "guilds" because of the rarity of the arts.

Also while I wait for something to download i'm going to try and Dissect your idea. Brace yourself, lol.

Okay I'll have to do a general overview since I have something else to work on and am not feeling well.
First thing is, remember to take into account the new system that has been set into place. Any skill that is to be replaced by another skill now has a trait indicating it as such. Your abilities Kiss of the Viper and Throat Stab do not reflect this.
Second, in regards to traits, remember that some of the traits will be shared with Ninja, and only the ones past 30 would begin to become specialized. Although, admittedly the trait line up has become less ridged. But your traits Dual Wield do not make sense since the dripping blade trait would still be there. The same sort of applies to Flee. Maybe make Flee effect a skill you want to add, not movement speed. Additionally the Hide trait needs a rework, Hide in battle should not happen.
Third, you need to specify what is a weapon skill and what is an ability, and their duration and cooldown times. You have several skills that indicate they cost Stealth Gauge points, but how long are they can i build up the gauge and spam the skill? you need to specify these parameters.
Fourth, It seems like your Gambits are directly taken from the Mudra system, which is fine... in a way, but how do we execute them? There has to be a way of choosing which skill I want at that time.
Finally, I think, there are your gauges. The Stealth Gauge you did okay explaining, its basically the Ninki Gauge for Thieves, which has it's own issues but I digress. But what does the Trickery Gauge do? You don't explain it, it just says it tracks your debuffs. Are they DoTs and do you want Thief to be a DoT based job like SCH, SMN, and BRD? Or is it the stat debuffs? And if it's stat debuffs how does just a number help me track them? If I have 4 debuffs and 1 falls off how do i tell which one to reapply?

All in all, while I didn't review this very intently, from what I can see, all you really did what take the Ninja concept and give them names that maybe sounded more Thief-esc. The idea just needs to be fleshed out more so that we don't just have 2 DPS that basically mimic one another in concept and design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.

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Personally I've never really felt any stake in the whole Time Mage debate simply because I've never known any staple set of lovable (FF or beyond) mechanics, interactions, and functionalities associated with the Time Mage, whereas I have for the Thief. As Yoshida said, it was a missing staple, and yet it feels like it took none of the spark from it's predecessors. The Rogue doesn't feel like a Rogue. It feels like a Monk/Dragoon hybrid with a gimmick that only comes into its own, somewhat, with Ninja.

For those who do feel invested in the Time Mage idea, maybe that does comes from some really awesome previous iterations of lore, interaction concepts, or mechanics. Personally, though, while I felt a little cheated that, say, Gravity didn't actually add mass to anything, which could end up being a really awesomely manipulable if there were any semblance of physics in this game, I didn't know what else I might or might not have been missing.

@Main Topic
Sadly, though, that's also why I feel ill-equipped to Dissect your work here, Sandpark; my view of the Thief has more to do with its contribution to the game as a whole, and what it gives and implies access to. As just another damage-dealer, I can't meaningfully advise its place in the line-up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.



As for this, the Jobs of Paladin, Warrior, Astrologian, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, and Machinist, all have "guilds" that we know of. Just because we don't have access to a "guild", though we do in the case or AST and MCH, doesn't mean they don't exist. And those are just the ones we can confirm have "guilds". Although, the Bard quest seems to hint that a new "faction" is forming within the Quivers Hold. The Dark Knight quests seem to indicate that there is a place where DRK go to train. And the Summoner quests show a slight resurgence. I have not finished RDM so I can't say for certain. But as of right now only WHM, BLM, and SCH don't have "guilds" because of the rarity of the arts.

Also while I wait for something to download i'm going to try and Dissect your idea. Brace yourself, lol.

Okay I'll have to do a general overview since I have something else to work on and am not feeling well.
First thing is, remember to take into account the new system that has been set into place. Any skill that is to be replaced by another skill now has a trait indicating it as such. Your abilities Kiss of the Viper and Throat Stab do not reflect this.
Second, in regards to traits, remember that some of the traits will be shared with Ninja, and only the ones past 30 would begin to become specialized. Although, admittedly the trait line up has become less ridged. But your traits Dual Wield do not make sense since the dripping blade trait would still be there. The same sort of applies to Flee. Maybe make Flee effect a skill you want to add, not movement speed. Additionally the Hide trait needs a rework, Hide in battle should not happen.
Third, you need to specify what is a weapon skill and what is an ability, and their duration and cooldown times. You have several skills that indicate they cost Stealth Gauge points, but how long are they can i build up the gauge and spam the skill? you need to specify these parameters.
Fourth, It seems like your Gambits are directly taken from the Mudra system, which is fine... in a way, but how do we execute them? There has to be a way of choosing which skill I want at that time.
Finally, I think, there are your gauges. The Stealth Gauge you did okay explaining, its basically the Ninki Gauge for Thieves, which has it's own issues but I digress. But what does the Trickery Gauge do? You don't explain it, it just says it tracks your debuffs. Are they DoTs and do you want Thief to be a DoT based job like SCH, SMN, and BRD? Or is it the stat debuffs? And if it's stat debuffs how does just a number help me track them? If I have 4 debuffs and 1 falls off how do i tell which one to reapply?

All in all, while I didn't review this very intently, from what I can see, all you really did what take the Ninja concept and give them names that maybe sounded more Thief-esc. The idea just needs to be fleshed out more so that we don't just have 2 DPS that basically mimic one another in concept and design.

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The thief is a melee dps who's majority of good stuff is locked behind the stealth gauge. It's meta is a DPS that dishes out more damage when debuffs are applied on the enemy. It's strength on certain skills multiplies/increases the more debuffs you have in effect.

1.The trickery gauge displays how many debuffs you have applied on targeted enemy.
2.The second function is tracking accomplice which is a skill that increases the duration for other party member's dots.
3.The reason I added any damage to Dual Wield is because Ninja has a speed buff and damage buff as well. If there was no damage buff, thief would be at a disadvantage. The difference is Ninja has always on damage buff with an activated speed buff and thief would have an always on speed buff and damage buff but with the speed buff slightly faster and damage buff slightly lower.

4.The reason flee is an auto trait is because it would be button bloat if thief had two versions of sprint.

I'll elaborate more later at work now lol.

Hmm....

If we make THF as a branch from ROG, the main thing would really be establishing some sort of specialization for THF so that it stands out from NIN. For that, I'd suggest the buff to Throwing Dagger go to NIN (make it generate Ninki or something), while buffing Mug for THF. This is merely thematic, but I feel it would fit both jobs while also being callbacks to older FF games (where NIN's main gimmicks were Dual Wield and the Throw command). By the same token, Sneak Attack making a return as a THF-only skill would be a step in the right direction, specially since you have the Stealth Gauge.

I'm looking over your OP so that I can give better feedback, but there are some good foundation in there.

The thief (and the rogue) run into problems in a themepark MMO for the same reason that Red Mage and Bard cannot be true hybrid or support classes.

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

However, the truth is that you have to function either as a damage dealer or a support. And if you are planning a debuff job, your debuffs will, by necessity, be limited in their efficacy against bosses, primals, and all the fights that do actually matter.

Overall, it's not a bad idea, but I just don't see how the job itself will feel any different from the ninja. You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

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Originally Posted by Anova

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

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I think that depends on how you intend to use the class. If it were me designing it, THF would be a sort of less refined alternative to NIN. NIN train specific arts and have a method they follow to get things done. THF would be more like the guy that fights dirty and wins fights through agility, wit, and improvisation.

Provided we want to put the work in, I think that distinction has a lot of mileage.

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You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

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Considering we had a Thief that was the protagonist of a FF game and saved the world (Zidane), I don't think that's a bad thing.

Thief from FF1 evolved into Ninja so I think that's where it ends here as well I'm afraid.

The idea is very well thought out, and I'd love to see it implemented, even though they said time and again that rogues are thieves that were sanctioned. Too bad, because they wouldn't necessarily need a guild; DRK's aren't sanctioned and they don't have one (guild) either.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Hmm....

If we make THF as a branch from ROG, the main thing would really be establishing some sort of specialization for THF so that it stands out from NIN. For that, I'd suggest the buff to Throwing Dagger go to NIN (make it generate Ninki or something), while buffing Mug for THF. This is merely thematic, but I feel it would fit both jobs while also being callbacks to older FF games (where NIN's main gimmicks were Dual Wield and the Throw command). By the same token, Sneak Attack making a return as a THF-only skill would be a step in the right direction, specially since you have the Stealth Gauge.

I'm looking over your OP so that I can give better feedback, but there are some good foundation in there.

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Finally someone interested in at least some version of thief.

The reason why I went with the dagger buff to thief is because ninja has the shuriken/katana and rogue/thief traditionally use daggers. However I do concede that Ninja is known for the throw command in the FF universe. I mainly added throwing to this concept because thief needs come kind of ranged or AoE attack and it wouldn't make sense at least for me unless it was bombs or traps.

I have a three way mode for mug to be altered. ESO has morphs which what my idea is kind of like except here the choice is not permanent.

Could you elaborate on how you would buff Mug?

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Considering we had a Thief that was the protagonist of a FF game and saved the world (Zidane), I don't think that's a bad thing.

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I do like Zidane and he played a huge role. But my favorite Thief is still Locke, though he would want to be called Treasure Hunter.

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I think that depends on how you intend to use the class. If it were me designing it, THF would be a sort of less refined alternative to NIN. NIN train specific arts and have a method they follow to get things done. THF would be more like the guy that fights dirty and wins fights through agility, wit, and improvisation.

Provided we want to put the work in, I think that distinction has a lot of mileage.

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Yes, this was why I included Cloud Of Dust and the meta of being more potent when debuffs are applied. To me the iconic image of a rogue or thief is a slightly dirtier version of Han Solo or Indiana Jones, kind of just winging it in a high fantasy setting.

Kind of a drunk, kind of aloof, kind of a dork, but still has a view of what is right or wrong and always gets the job done somehow. This job could potentially teeter the line of what is good or bad and maybe either way is kind of gray.

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Originally Posted by Anova

The thief (and the rogue) run into problems in a themepark MMO for the same reason that Red Mage and Bard cannot be true hybrid or support classes.

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

However, the truth is that you have to function either as a damage dealer or a support. And if you are planning a debuff job, your debuffs will, by necessity, be limited in their efficacy against bosses, primals, and all the fights that do actually matter.

Overall, it's not a bad idea, but I just don't see how the job itself will feel any different from the ninja. You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

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I played Thief in XI which was a themepark and it worked fine there. Was a DPS with emnity management and a bonus Treasure Hunter trait.

But I don't want a DPS emnity manager here. I want a DPS/support.

ESO built a whole expansion around the Thief. Which I am not asking for here. But those job quest would add enough context if the writing is up to snuff and some actual effort is put into it. The best reason for playing multiple jobs other than trying new skills on new jobs or unique gear is getting a subtly different story per job. Which is what I love the FF mmos for.

To OP were you able to organize your thoughts into a more cohesive format? Remember to formulate it to the current battle system style present in the game. I'm looking forward to digging into your revamped/reorganized idea. XD

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I mainly added throwing to this concept because thief needs come kind of ranged or AoE attack and it wouldn't make sense at least for me unless it was bombs or traps.

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Assuming you were to go with a crossbow, you have a ranged option. You could give Throwing Dagger the Miasma II treatment by tying it to ROG and NIN. When the Soul of the Thief is equipped, you instead get a skill called Hip Shot. Likewise, Mug could be made exclusive to THF.

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Could you elaborate on how you would buff Mug?

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There's a couple of ways to do this. One way would be to make it a spender of Stealth Gauge. Like, having above X amount of Stealth Gauge makes mug have no cooldown and/or gives it an additional effect like a temporary buff for you or a debuff that can then interact with other skills.

Another way would be to make Mug an optional part/step in Gambits, though that would require some adjustments to how Gambits work because THF-version-of-mudras doesn't really jive with me.

As for what I'd do with Gambits, I'd start with the literal meaning of a gambit, that being a plan or strategy. Perhaps activating a gambit alters certain skills, which allows them to be used in a certain order to execute the gambit. Or perhaps there's an action button that changes over time, allowing you to carry out parts of the "plan" in set time intervals.

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To help illustrate this, let's do a small build:

Abilities
12 Hip Shot - Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 120.
15 Mug - Delivers an attack with a potency of 140.
18 Sneak Attack - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Will always deal critical damage if used from the target's rear.
30 Jugulate - Delivers an attack with a potency of 80. Additional effect: Silence.
34 Toxic Vial - Deals damage over time with a potency of 40 for 24s.

Job Abilities
30 Bamboozle - 3-step Gambit. Upon completion, reduces target's damage dealt by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 180s.
40 Snuff Out - 4-step Gambit. Upon completion, increases target's chance of tanking critical damage from your attacks by 25% for 15s. Cooldown: 240s.

Let's say you activate Bamboozle. Doing so modifies Mug, Sneak Attack and Jugulate, allowing you to execute the Gambit by using them in a specific order. In this case, it'd be opening with Sneak Attack (which applies the debuff "Startle" on the enemy, quadrupling the damage Jugulate deals to the target), followed by Jugulate (which allows Mug to temporarily increase one of your secondary stats for 20s), followed by Mug (which completes the Gambit, thus inflicting the enemy with a damage dealt debuff for 10s).

Now assume you want to use Snuff Out. In this case, Toxic Vial, Hip Shot, Sneak Attack and Jugulate would be the modified skills. You'd open with Sneak Attack (which applies the debuff "Gaping Wound", allowing Toxic Vial to inflict front-loaded damage), then Toxic Vial (which morphs Jugulate into Throat Stab, dealing considerably higher damage), then Jugulate (which increases Hip Shot's critical chance to 100%), and then Hip Shot (which completes the Gambit, causing the target to have a 25% higher chance of taking critical damage from your attacks).

These examples are purposely imbalanced for the sake of showcase.

Gambit Definition:
Chess. an opening in which a player seeks to obtain some advantage by sacrificing a pawn or piece.

I am going to rework what a gambit is based off the definition and your thoughtd Duelle. Adding soon I hope.

Alright Duelle.

The idea is still rough but I tried to implement some of the stuff you mentioned, at least to my best understanding. Have another look and let me know issues or OP stuff.

I'd jump right on a THF job. NIN hasn't interested me much since from 2.x to 3.x, it was a weird hybrid between NIN and THF while not doing either that well. 4.0 NIN is more of a NIN now (though, regrettably, a Naruto NIN), and apart from the rogue starter class and some utility skills from XI's THF, I don't see much THF in it.