Hey all! I think I've posted here, maybe once. Unsure, I usually don't head to the forums that often. But I've just finished compiling the information myself and my Dark Knight friends from The Balance Discord server, and made a Guide that hopefully all will be able to read and learn from. Enjoy!
Link to the Google Doc of the Guide
An In Depth look at Dark Knight - Lvl 70 Raiding Guide
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08-10-2017, 04:19 AMEmiinAn In Depth look at Dark Knight - Lvl 70 Raiding Guide
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08-10-2017, 06:01 AMDWolfwoodMakes me cringe so hard when people say this, let alone think it. Living Dead is 0-9.something seconds of invulnerability. You will never get a full 10 seconds, unless you literally die at the end. Furthermore, just because you have to die before it kicks in doesn't make you invulnerable, as is completely evident if it doesn't actually kick in.Quote:
Living Dead is, in effect, 10-20 seconds of invulnerability when used properly.
A planned use of an ability like this should see a healer treating you no differently whether it's Living Dead, Holmgang, or Hallowed Ground in that time-frame before the countdown kicks in. Basically, WAR and PLD also get the same buffer window of not needing healing before their ultimate when used in the manner this guide is suggesting.
The math on TBN is also cringy and completely ignores the Bloodgauge gain on SE. -
08-10-2017, 06:40 AMAletinIt would be more accurate to say Living Dead is 0-9s of Invulnerability and 10-19s of no healer attention. Which is better than hallowed by 0-9s and holmgang by 4-13s.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
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08-10-2017, 07:06 AMEmiin
Hence the terminology of "In Effect." It isn't a literal 20s, but it's close enough that an even number is easier to understand, and more universal. Accuracy wasn't what I was going for as much as general understanding.
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08-10-2017, 07:15 AMEmiinThe math for adjusting for blood gain related to the SE replaced would be as convoluted as the math within the TBN post itself. For a general understanding of when TBN is a gain vs. loss it is not required, thought of, or cared about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
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08-10-2017, 01:35 PMChrono_Rising
I have a question about the BiS cited in the guide. Do the calculations considered include higher skill speed builds (GCD 2.38) for an extra gcd hit in blood weapon windows and very high skill speed builds (GCD 2.32) for extra hits in both blood weapon windows and delirium windows?
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08-10-2017, 11:50 PMEmiinToo many better substats are lost to make a build that fast viable. This was true in Heavensward, and it remains true now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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08-11-2017, 12:24 AMDWolfwoodIt gives the same amount of "no healer attention" as Hallowed Ground though in actual practice, and more importantly, it's nearly the same amount of "no healer attention" as Holmgang. I play all three tanks and communicate well enough to see it in action. It's pretty rare that you'll even get the full 10s ever of Walking Dead; it has the same problem as Living Dead in that, if you actually see the full 10s, it won't kick in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletin
That beside the case, healers stop ignoring you when you plan and communicate an invuln no matter which job you're on, and that's the big point I'm driving. The Walking Dead buff is really only there as a crutch for people who poorly time it and to justify the 5m CD.
The problem is you list a potency gain of 10, which is doubly false. TBN is a potency loss for the DRK, which you could easily see if you did the math. Based on your response though, I imagine you either didn't know how or forgot. If you were aiming for a "general" guide, you should have just said the DPS gain or loss was negligible for the DRK outside of raid buff windows but provided enough raid utility to warrant it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
In a day and age where an overwhelming amount of tanks are concerned with parses considering how easy these fights are, a lot care whether it is a personal DPS loss or gain, even if "negligible." -
08-11-2017, 04:38 AMChrono_Rising
Also, just a minor clarification point, the soul eater potency is now 300, but the priority section for DA on soul eater vs siphon strike still reflects the 4.0 value of 280 instead of the 4.05 value of 300. This of course does not change the point at all, which is it doesn't matter which you DA its the same thing, but could be confusing for those mathing it out at home.
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08-11-2017, 06:43 PMEmiinJust fixed that one actually, thanks for the heads up ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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08-11-2017, 06:51 PMEmiinAt this point you're just being nit-picky, in a general field of information that doesn't require it. We all know it won't last the entire duration of 20seconds, but it's a consideration that can be taken into effect. Walking Dead buff is on purpose, and intentionally used properly, it can effectively lead to an additional near 10 seconds of healers ignoring you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
I listed an -average- potency gain of 10. As stated in the math this will not always be the case. If you read the math, you'd understand that. Every 3 TBN uses it will even out to 10 potency gained, and the cycle resets. Since you didn't read the math, I'll clarify it really quick - (110-40-60) = 10. As I stated within the guide, if you want to optimize fully, you have to map your uses, and your GCDs. I'll quote my guide where I stated this, since you didn't read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
I also talked about its utility in other sections. But again, you didn't read it, apparently.Quote:
Throughout a fight, you’ll only know which GCDs you have replaced depending on which GCD you end a fight/phase with. Note, that this math does not equate to Bloodspillers gained naturally, as the (-140) modifier will not be present, and naturals are always a gain when used.
Overall, TBN guaranteed Bloodspillers averages out to a 10 potency gain when used regularly throughout your rotation. At some points it will be a loss, some it will be a gain.
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08-11-2017, 11:52 PMChrono_RisingIf I may, I will say that this is a great guide which contains most of the pertinent information to dark knight. I think most people will agree that dark knight is not in the best place in terms of damage or utility, and the concern with tbn is that citing it as a potential gain may lead to confusion that one of the core issues with dark knight isn't an issue at all. The further concern is this would make us look like we are not unified in our complaints and won't be taken seriously by SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
Though the math might not have a place in your guide (because I agree it is more complicated to get into pushing out a naturally occurring bloodspiller, though every 16 uses this will happen), nodding to the maths existance and saying it can be shown that it is a loss when taking into account blood gains isn't the worst idea.
Mapping out the fight is important, but sometimes fights end a GCD ahead of where you expect (suppose Sam crits multiple 50K hits), and TBN just further complicates this type of optimization since if you would have ended in the optimal place but the fight ended a GCD before (because of RNG) then the planned optimal uses of TBN becomes not optimal. -
08-12-2017, 12:07 AMEmiinTypically, outside of O1S and O2S, TBN usage for DPS gains for self will be mapped out based on phase pushes/disconnects, as opposed to the entire fight itself, as those happen on the regular and at specific intervals. The main gain is always healer gcds/spot "healing" in order to better the raid, as opposed to self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Considering if it replaces Souleater it's already a loss, I didn't take further math into consideration. But I'll make a nod to it. ^^ -
08-12-2017, 01:07 AMChrono_Rising
Agreed, it benefits healers greatly when used on yourself, and healers being able to cast an extra nuke should outweigh personal gains as it isn't negligible.
My argument for why it is less than stellar is that as our cap stone ability I feel that it is an unnecessarily large personal dps gamble for the small pay off it provides (140 potency gambled for a .625 expected gain), it is encouraged to be used frequently to make up for the defensive skills we lost or didn't have (procing 3.x reprisal for mitigation and free damage, or filling in a shield as form of hp restore to buy time), and the existance of a tank which has more utilities at no personal dps cost lowers the value of tbn overall. What are your thoughts on TBN overall? -
08-12-2017, 01:48 AMEmiin
Instead of overall DPS utility I like to think of it as basically a better Shelltron. While Shelltron, with how blocking works, gets weaker as a defensive button with more mitigation, ours gets stronger; as both are taken into consideration after mitigation has been applied.
An attack brought down to 20k after mitigation - Shelltron only blocks 5k~of it, while our shield blocks 10k. Shelltron is really only better than TBN if you're taking a 40k+ hit, and that's typically never going to happen if you utilize the rest of your mitigation correctly.
I usually don't think of it as a DPS button and more of a healer utility one, unless I'm prepping for a Trick Attack window and I won't need it soon otherwise. Really helps when for mechanics/DPS reasons the healers aren't able to pay attention to you! -
08-12-2017, 07:07 AMDWolfwoodNo, I'm really not. What this "general field" doesn't need is someone making Living Dead out to be a 20s invuln skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
The literal only benefit LD has over Hallowed Ground is the shorter CD and a couple extra seconds of invuln on Holmgang. However, there's so many advantages that Holmgang and Hallowed Ground have over Living Dead that I won't even get into unless you really press me. You shouldn't even be approaching this subject in the manner which you are.
If you're gonna school someone, you might wanna make sure you know what you're talking about. What you got there is not an "-average-", it's a sum, so if you divide that by 3, then you'll have your average: 3.33Quote:
I listed an -average- potency gain of 10. As stated in the math this will not always be the case. If you read the math, you'd understand that. Every 3 TBN uses it will even out to 10 potency gained, and the cycle resets. Since you didn't read the math, I'll clarify it really quick - (110-40-60) = 10.
I get that you're feeling under attack and are defensive since you probably put a lot of time into this, but you're not the only one to speak falsely on DRK and you need to hear what I'm saying. You can't just completely ignore the fact that Souleater accumulates Bloodgauge, which is exactly what you did.
You broke it down like this:
Case (1): Bloodspiller replaces Hard Slash
Lost: 150p + 2400MP
Gain: 400p
Total: 400p - 150p - (140p) = 110p
Case (2): Bloodspiller replaces Syphon Strike
Lost: 250p + 2400MP + 1200MP
Gained: 400p
Total: 400p - 250p - (140p) - (70p) = -60p
Case (3): Bloodspiller replaces Souleater
Lost: 300p + 2400MP + 10 Bloodgauge
Gained: 400p
Total: 400p - 300p - (140p) - 10 Bloodgauge = -40p - (b) // where b is the potency value of 10 Bloodgauge
Grand Total: 110p - 60p - 40p - (b) = 10p - b
Are you seriously going to stand by the claim that 10 Bloodgauge is worth less than 10 potency? Your "general" guide gets awfully specific in questionable ways.
By all means, stress the importance of using TBN to get an extra Bloodspiller in a raid buff window, but if you're going to avoid in-depth math analysis, stay vague and just say that the loss/gain is negligible compared to the raid utility.
When you say stuff like TBN is a DPS gain on average and Living Dead is 10-20s of invuln, it paints a picture that doesn't exist and gives fuel to those who think "DRK is fine" but don't understand what's going on. -
08-12-2017, 06:53 PMEmiin
Gonna drop the LD subject since we're not going to agree on it no matter the case. All invulnerabilities have their uses, it's up to the player and their raid team to decide how to use them. We do seem to agree that it does lead to more healer-ignorance for longer time. The exact time seems to be the only debate, which all depends on when and how you use it. All three invulnerabilities need to be healed afterwards/before/during. How your healers adjust to their use is up to you and your group. one LD I use effectively allows my healers to ignore me for 15-18 seconds, depending on when I use it and how I've prepped for it.
I'll agree that average was the wrong word to use, so I'll use sum instead; already changed. Average just sounds nicer in the grand scope of things, and is a more commonly used word.
As far as the blood gauge gained from Souleaters in regards to the TBN math, there's a specific reason I ignored it - because it becomes more convoluted than you'd imagine. The guide was meant for a further understanding of Dark Knight, not a full-nerd by the numbers understanding. I've gone full nerd on the math for TBN and decided it wasn't worth it to share. But since you're so inclined, I'll share the thought process behind it anyways.
In order to nullify the added gauge from the Souleaters replaced, you'd have to have 15 TBN casts. Hitting TBN on cooldown would land you in the 3:15 timeframe, including the one used on pull, at 0. Not only that, you have to consider the GCD that the bloodspiller granted naturally from not hitting the souleaters that you've replaced through TBN. I just tested a 3:20 striking dummy run and ended on Syphon Strike sitting at 32 blood. I could have used 9 TBNs within that timeframe and had it been a gain, and have no wasted blood. That, as well is where the issue lies with including the blood gauge within TBN math - how much blood will you end with at the end of a fight / phase? How many TBNs need to be added/removed? It's too much to think about. Don't.
A lot of things can happen within this 3:15 timeframe. One full opener, three trick windows, three brotherhoods, two embolden windows, 2 strategems, two hypercharged turrets, two-three foe requiem windows, two battlevoices, 2-3 aoe card draws, two litanies, and one potion.
Extending the math to include this would be nearly impossible, and for the most part, not worth the extra thought for the typical player, who this guide is aimed at. From what I can understand from your posted FFlogs entries, someone such as yourself. There is an extended amount of math that was involved in the bulk majority of creating this guide that I did not post throughout, as it is not necessary for the understanding required within the scope.
The TBN section of my guide even states that the thought process behind TBN usage is probably best not to even think about, and use it as you deem necessary. The current top players throughout many of the clockwork fights that would have minimal TBN usage do not even reach the 15-total TBN count. At the most, 12. At the least, 2. And many of these top players assisted and guided me on the math involved within my guide post, and agree that thinking further on it is not necessary for the bulk of players. It's for optimization. Some even ditched TBN unless it was completely necessary in keeping them alive through a mechanic.
The point of the TBN math listed was to state that the gain/loss with TBN was fairly neutral, and was not always a gain depending on what was going on with the fight, as opposed to what a newer player would believe based on the tooltip and asssumption that it makes a Bloodspiller "free." -
08-13-2017, 03:22 AMLyth
The math is fairly straightforward. Here's how it works outside of Grit.
Replacing Hard Slash:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(150 potency)
50 blood = 300 potency
Replacing Siphon Strike:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(250 potency) - 0.5 DA
50 blood = 180 potency – 1.2(0.5)(140)
50 blood = 96 potency
Replacing Souleater:
50 blood = 1.2(400 potency) – 1.2(300 potency) – 10 blood
60 blood = 120 potency
50 blood = 100 potency
Every three Bloodspiller actions, we have:
150 blood = 300 potency + 96 potency + 100 potency
150 blood = 496 potency
50 blood = 165 potency
Given that 1 DA = 1.2(140) = 168 potency outside of Grit, every full combo that you replace with TBN-Bloodspillers, you end up with a net 3 potency loss outside of buff windows. That's why you're seeing much lower usage on optimised runs, instead of using it on every cleave or tankbuster as some sort of DA replacement.
I can appreciate that most people don't want to know what is happening under the hood, but I don't think that you can simply ignore resources in your calculations on a primarily resource-based job. While I wouldn't have personally expressed it so harshly, I think it's feedback worth taking on board.
While I think it's important to be able to justify whether TBN is a gain or loss and whether it's a marginal one or a significant one, I personally think that the Bloodspiller math becomes much, much more important when you start looking at Delirium and the timing of fight mechanics that influence your uptime. Most buffs give you partial marks based on your uptime in the window. Delirium does not. -
08-13-2017, 04:07 AMEmiin
I've edited the guide to make a nod to the extra math involved, but it still won't be included.
While your Souleater math displayed checks out on paper, again, the 15 Bloodspillers required to enable that potency loss is something that needs to be either fully considered, or ignored. It's not fully a loss until you lose a Bloodspiller, and at that point you're overusing TBN. Until that 15th TBN usage, it's a gain in most scenarios with proper blood/mana pooling and conservation.
And even then, the entirety of math can only be expressed when you know how the fight ends,how much blood you have at the end, and what GCD you ended on. There's simply too many variables to include Blood gauge in every single TBN usage.
Delirium gains marks when used alongside raid CDs, specifically the longer ones such as card draws, Embolden, etc - buffs that last past the traditional Blood Weapon duration. Increased marks when it's used alongside a potion. -
08-13-2017, 04:44 AMLyth
Delirium is a dps gain, but there comes a question of how much of a dps gain it represents over Bloodspiller. The difference is contingent on your ability to get 16-23 seconds of continuous uptime. Certain mechanics interfere with that, which results in some interesting on-the-fly decision making. It's a bit of a lengthy tangent, though, and I'm still formulating my thoughts on it.
I would say, for the average player, it's enough to know that TBN is a minor dps loss which should not deter you from using defensively where you see fit. -
08-14-2017, 12:45 PMDiamondawg
As a level 20 glad I feel like I have more than enough experience to critique this guide...but I don't since is good but it does make me think I should be looking at PLD instead of DRK :'D
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08-17-2017, 03:29 AMGhanbaatar
Noob question I'm sure but I honestly don't know the answer. On the overview of the different openers at the same point in all three is the oGCD ability with a blue sword lookinging icon that's used before a DA. What ability is that? I'm only a level 54 DRK so far so it might be something I'm just not familiar with is all.
Regardless of my inability to know an ability this guide has been VERY helpful. Thank you so much for this from an aspiring OT! -
08-17-2017, 05:00 AMTouchandFeelFrom what I can tell, it is Delerium but is being displayed with the old (outdated) icon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghanbaatar
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08-19-2017, 11:15 AMQuorI had a pretty long multi-page argument/discussion with several DRK's about the use of TBN, and many of them kept telling me that TBN, used in place of DA for dmg, was always a DPS loss. I mathed it out over a few different given periods of time and came to the same conclusion as you. Namely, there are discrete moments in time where using TBN for the 50 blood for BS is a dps gain over using DA. Likewise, there are discrete moments in time where using DA over TBN results in an increase in damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
There's still a pretty large group of DRK's who see TBN as only a loss compared to DA, so the kneejerk is still strong. -
08-19-2017, 11:19 AMLyth
I don't think that anyone here is making the claim that TBN is always a dps loss. The point of contention here was that it is not always a dps gain, which is an erroneous conclusion that came out of ignoring the blood gain on Souleater.
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08-19-2017, 11:29 AMQuorNo, I don't mean that to include this thread, just my personal experience. Here's the thread I referenced earlier, linked directly to the post I made regarding my theoretical TBN vs. DA usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Overall, to me as a WAR (DRK isn't 70 yet), it seems the best way to use TBN as an "offensive" skill would be as a supplement to your team and your blood gauge, as long as you're not wasting blood by over-capping. The true gain from TBN is the mitigation it provides. The blood is just a neat bonus. -
08-19-2017, 12:44 PMChrono_RisingYes, and that is exactly what the post above the one you linked said and the post below. Also the response to your original post which started the discussion cited it as a potential loss outside of grit. Most people agree with you that it can be a gain, but are pointing out that it can be a loss as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
The problem people have with it is the dark kit wants us to use this frequently for little to no gain when it risks a fairly large amount of mana. Sometimes it's a small gain, sometimes a small loss, sometimes a large loss. As Syzzle said if you took away the blood and mana effects it would change nothing at all except that we would be able to put it up on cooldown.
The issue which people had in the linked thread is that dark knight mitigation makes us enter a risk game With a low reward unless you are in defensive stance. No other tank has a low number of eHP modifiers and has to enter a risk management when they use mitigation. -
08-23-2017, 01:34 AMGraiggySo far from what i have been reading about DRK on other forums. you are the only person that says to not use TBN. I am not level enough to argue with you but just pointing out that so far your the only one ive seen. Now as for living dead. I kinda agree you shouldnt get to a situation where that is needed. but it does make a good panic button.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
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08-29-2017, 01:28 PMShinkyoThe TBN controversy has been there since day one of SB and there has been many discussions about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graiggy
It's a dps gain under certain conditions (mainly party buffs) and a dps loss under other ones.
It's definitely a complicated topic, similar it MCH pre-4.05 Overheat.
As for LD, describing it as ~20 invul is just wrong.
Counting the LD period as "No healer attention" period is like saying that Holmgang can be a 30s invul if it take 25s of damage to bring a WAR to close to 0hp.
In that case, holgang can potentially stretch the "No healer attention" a lot longer than LD since there's no commitment to die in the next 10s...
Great guide still! -
08-29-2017, 03:17 PMaleph_null
Yeah you can't say that LD gives you 20s of no healer attention. If you need LD for time T for a tank buster, the earliest you can go into walking dead is T-10s (or T-9s if you take into account benediction animation delay). Even if you pop LD at T-19s your healer still needs to make sure that you don't die and trigger walking dead before T-9s, so the 10s range from T-19s to T-9s is NOT a period of no healer attention. The only benefit LD has over HG is that you can pop it early for multiple tank busters and not worry about tight timings like final punch + beam combo in a8s or back to back tank busters from general's time add in a12s. Those stuffs span 7-8s so using LD gives you a lot more leeway in terms of timing compared to HG.
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08-30-2017, 02:01 AMShinkyoIn O4S, I've had a few scary moment with Delta Attack where I'd get hit by the Fire (after 2xThunder) just a split second before Holmgang wears off. The timing is certainly tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleph_null
Another way to look at LD vs Holmgang is that for LD the healer is in control of the invul period start where as for Holmgang, it's the tank.