4.05 and 4.06 Ninja potency changes

So I'm just wondering if anyone can understand the reasoning behind the useless/ nonsensical buff/nerf to ninja in the last two patches. 220 to 200 combo potency decrease to Gust Slash in 4.05. Aeolian Edge Combo potency increased from 260 to 280. Potency when executed from a target's rear reduced from 180 to 160 in 4.06.

First off why reduce a mid combo skills potency? Next Aeolian Edge this is supposed to look like a buff but it's not really a buff at all. Aeolian Edge just had 20 taken from its non combo positional and put 20 on its combo non positional... umm what? SE i can not see what you are trying to do with Aeolian Edge besides pleasing those who are too lazy to get their positional. So if any other ninjas can enlighten me as to what possible reasons for the last 2 patches please do.

dont forget that bhavakacra techically got a nerf as well. While it was increased by 50 potency, it became magic based and no longer benefited from your poison trait (20% dmg) and slashing debuff, among other buffs such as brotherhood.as for the other nerfs/buffs. i think they are just trying to find the right place to sit ninja at in terms of dmg, these buffs/nerfs change pretty much nothing at all tho, reallly

Well with the recent buffs to Dragoons among the melee dps Ninja in terms of DPS output are so far behind it's funny. All i'm seeing is Bhavakacra turned into raiton, Gust Slash nerf had no reason, and the new Aeolion Edge nerf/buff? is just weird. I'm not saying to buff the crap out of ninjas but if you're going to do changes at least make it so it makes some sense.

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Originally Posted by Zexth

Well with the recent buffs to Dragoons among the melee dps Ninja in terms of DPS output are so far behind it's funny. All i'm seeing is Bhavakacra turned into raiton, Gust Slash nerf had no reason, and the new Aeolion Edge nerf/buff? is just weird. I'm not saying to buff the crap out of ninjas but if you're going to do changes at least make it so it makes some sense.

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i dont ninja in anything that really matters, but i do know that anyone raiding seriously will definantly try to get a ninja as one of the melee if possible.

the dmg it outputs is great, not the best, but it also has trick attack, thats like the main reason. unlike other job buffs, like battle litany. or brotherhood, its a direct dmg increase for everyone in the party, every 60 seconds, for 10 seconds, thats quite a huge deal

and bhavakacra is far from being a raiton, the potency is about the same as a BLM foul. which is like double raiton. (guess work atm cos i cant get on to check lol, but its closer to foul than raiton) and it might do less damage than before, but it still benefits from magic dmg increasing buffs like SMNs garuda and all that. so its still ninjas heaviest skill

I do raid seriously as a ninja so i know all it's benefits. I have no qualms about it's damage but what is the reason behind the changes. I can see the Aeolian Edge change being useful in open world pve but it didn't have a problem in the first place with that so why do the change?

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Originally Posted by Zexth

I do raid seriously as a ninja so i know all it's benefits. I have no qualms about it's damage but what is the reason behind the changes. I can see the Aeolian Edge change being useful in open world pve but it didn't have a problem in the first place with that so why do the change?

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I can't speak to the non combo changes but the combo buff is for missing the positional, so it doesn't punish you as much.

This isn't a nerf. Your Combo potency will be the same if you hit the rear.
Whoever, if you miss it, you'll hit for 20 potency MORE. It's a buff for those situations where you can't reach the back of a target for various reasons.

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Originally Posted by Zexth

I do raid seriously as a ninja so i know all it's benefits. I have no qualms about it's damage but what is the reason behind the changes. I can see the Aeolian Edge change being useful in open world pve but it didn't have a problem in the first place with that so why do the change?

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The reason is actually very simple. Reducing the dps disparity between the average ninja and the good ninja. That's literally all the change is for. Something similar for the DRG changes too. It makes no change to a good NIN's dps. It improves the average NIN's as they are most likely the ones hitting less positionals when compared to a good ninja. Those average ninjas missing their positional for that 1 move will now do 20 more potency more than before when doing so. That's all this change means.

Who said NIN is far behind DRG? It is pretty much tied (if not slightly higher) than DRG in savage at higher percentiles and still have trick attack/agro management. They are still the best melee.

im Happy with Dragoons Buff :)

Heavy Thrust Potency increased from 100 to 140.
Chaos Thrust Combo potency increased from 220 to 230.
Potency when executed from a target's rear reduced from 150 to 140.
Fang and Claw Potency increased from 200 to 250.
Wheeling Thrust Potency increased from 200 to 250.

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Originally Posted by Lauro

im Happy with Dragoons Buff :)

Heavy Thrust Potency increased from 100 to 140.
Chaos Thrust Combo potency increased from 220 to 230.
Potency when executed from a target's rear reduced from 150 to 140.
Fang and Claw Potency increased from 200 to 250.
Wheeling Thrust Potency increased from 200 to 250.

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Those are buffs that only apply when you miss a positional. The potency for when you actually land a positional is unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This isn't a nerf. Your Combo potency will be the same if you hit the rear.
Whoever, if you miss it, you'll hit for 20 potency MORE. It's a buff for those situations where you can't reach the back of a target for various reasons.

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The issue is that a lot of people are not reading this change correctly. It's changing the non-rear combo potency giving you more damage and lowering the rear non-combo potency which you shouldn't be hitting anyway since you wouldn't be noncomboing Aeolian anyway.

The change is to make missing positionals less punishing. To bring up the dps of nin that dont necesarily hit the positional all the time.

If u are uber nin that never misses positional, ur potency will remain unchanged.

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Originally Posted by zeopower6

The issue is that a lot of people are not reading this change correctly. It's changing the non-rear combo potency giving you more damage and lowering the rear non-combo potency which you shouldn't be hitting anyway since you wouldn't be noncomboing Aeolian anyway.

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Originally Posted by Phileas

The change is to make missing positionals less punishing. To bring up the dps of nin that dont necesarily hit the positional all the time.

If u are uber nin that never misses positional, ur potency will remain unchanged.

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This not to mention Savage bosses are having enough uptime when they twist or force you in front for mechanics and true north can't be used all the time.

My opinion nin is actually the lowest mele dps by far and need a real buff , drg was fine i do understand this buff above the other dps class.
But plz nin is worth behind than drg , i mean for my experience , i main nin i can't do in time the v4 savage dps check ilvl320 with perfect rotation the best regard of crit proc etc is 5% etc , and dude i do whatever (well i don't align the Naestron well with bfb so this is what i said by not doing a perfect rotation) facerolling my head on the keyboard with my drg same ilvl and i do it -_-
I do not prefer talk about the sam with him i'm parsed at 4k2 ilvl 309, plz come on...

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Originally Posted by Zexth

Well with the recent buffs to Dragoons

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You just explained how reducing positional dependence, with zero increase to DPS ceiling, was a non-buff for NIN. Then you look at the exact same for DRG and call it a buff?

My real concern here is the decrease of the non combo potency.
I'm always using it when I know the boss is going to jump or become untargetable if i'm not currently mid-combo because a raw AE have a better potency than everything else when not comboing (susano is a great example of when i'm using that when he pops up his sword).

I'm far from being the best ninja here but I dont really get the lasts few changes besides helping the lazy ones :p
At least, the class is still fun to play so...

Nin is essentially the best Melee dps right now. Exactly how many crappy nins have you guys been with to think i ts the lowest and the worst?

The nin in my FC parsed 4.2k on nin at that same iLv... literally just this week... so... maybe the class just.... isn't for you perhaps?

HAHAHA! they took away our little phase change niche with the non combo potency Aeolian Edge!!!

Before, if you can anticipate a within 4~5 seconds (2.5 GCDs), you can do 2 un-combo Aeolian Edge, for a 360 potency (vs the Spinning > Gust which is 350 potency) before jump/kill. I doubt this was the reason, but it was among the many little niche ninja had.

They should've added in a note that combo potency from position stays the same. Would've cleared up some of the confusion.

I never heard that Ninja was so far behind, what i had been hearing is how high damage plus utility Ninja brings

I hate the argument that ninja has alot of utility because they have shadewalker and smokescreen as i don't feel that neither one of those are used in 90% of content unless tank messes up or dd dont use lucid dreaming With as many hate tool out there smokesreen nothing to drop a drg or sam for. Now they have trick attack but does that alone mean they should be bottem of the melee teir in dmg?

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Chaos Thrust Combo potency increased from 220 to 230.
Potency when executed from a target's rear reduced from 150 to 140.

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Who the hell executes an UNCOMBOED Chaos Thrust just willy-nilly from the rear?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Who the hell executes an UNCOMBOED Chaos Thrust just willy-nilly from the rear?

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Who knows.

Well if they made the teir3 version near or greater then potency of tier 1 version at the rear of target and trick attack/litany about run out i could see how people whould hit the single instead of combo

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Originally Posted by Hellstorm

I hate the argument that ninja has alot of utility because they have shadewalker and smokescreen as i don't feel that neither one of those are used in 90% of content unless tank messes up or dd dont use lucid dreaming With as many hate tool out there smokesreen nothing to drop a drg or sam for. Now they have trick attack but does that alone mean they should be bottem of the melee teir in dmg?

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Trick attack ALONE outweighs everything a DRG brings (including disembowel). With the potential gains from agro management, NIN is an absolute beast and the core of any party.

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Originally Posted by Hellstorm

I hate the argument that ninja has alot of utility because they have shadewalker and smokescreen as i don't feel that neither one of those are used in 90% of content unless tank messes up or dd dont use lucid dreaming With as many hate tool out there smokesreen nothing to drop a drg or sam for. Now they have trick attack but does that alone mean they should be bottem of the melee teir in dmg?

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Trick attack alone is worth an automatic spot on raid groups...it is incredibly powerful and buffs the entire raids dps.

Think the Aeolian Edge nerf was to unincentivize doing 2 uncomboed AEs compared to a SE+GS prior to phase transition.

Previously:
SE + GS = 150p + 200p = 350p
AE + AE = 180p + 180p = 360p

Now:
SE + GS = 350p
AE + AE = 160p + 160p = 320p

As funny as it sounds, it used to be better to do 2 uncomboed Aeolin Edges compared to Spinning Edge + Gust slash prior to phase transition where you knew you could only get 2 more GCDs in. Although, AE base potency is still high enough to warrant using it over Spinning Edge if you know you can only get 1 more GCD in.

This wasn't a problem prior to GS getting nerfed from 220p to 200p, and now it's been addressed again.

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Originally Posted by RenOkamiya

My real concern here is the decrease of the non combo potency.
I'm always using it when I know the boss is going to jump or become untargetable if i'm not currently mid-combo because a raw AE have a better potency than everything else when not comboing (susano is a great example of when i'm using that when he pops up his sword).

I'm far from being the best ninja here but I dont really get the lasts few changes besides helping the lazy ones :p
At least, the class is still fun to play so...

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who determine who is lazy? Should be glad of these changes its hard enough to play ninja due to aoe, mob moving out of range. Almost everything aborigines requires everything to happen perfect.

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Originally Posted by Aubreun

who determine who is lazy? Should be glad of these changes its hard enough to play ninja due to aoe, mob moving out of range. Almost everything aborigines requires everything to happen perfect.

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Actually it is just making things easier for peoples who don't want to invest themselves.
Playing Ninja or any class decently does not require anything in particular nor everything happenning perfectly.

So yes, if you don't manage to play decently you're just not trying hard enough or in some case too lazy to try.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

Trick attack ALONE outweighs everything a DRG brings (including disembowel). With the potential gains from agro management, NIN is an absolute beast and the core of any party.

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Shadewalker/smokescreen is very situational only high tier raiding or major screw ups does it come in handy. Yet those 2 skills are the reason I always see on here why ninja should be at the bottem of the dmg list. Thank to true north ninjas can now use trick attack solo half the time but before they could not and the other 2 have no beneficial use outside of raiding. Unlikely drg that give disembowel which noone else can give, litany which give biggest percentage boost then any other ability of it kind and now dragon sight which is trick attack for you and a mini trick attack for someone else. That not even including blood for blood and spineshatter dive(situational). To me damage should go sam>mnk>nin>drg if you going off less utilty more dmg.

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Originally Posted by Hellstorm

Unlikely drg that give disembowel which noone else can give, litany which give biggest percentage boost then any other ability of it kind and now dragon sight which is trick attack for you and a mini trick attack for someone else. That not even including blood for blood and spineshatter dive.

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The problem with the drg's utility is the very long cooldown and the "random" on litany, yes it gives you raw % crit, but if you don't hit in this 10 or 15%, then it's less usefull than 10% damage up 10sec every minute.
Same thing with sight (less now that the range as increased) and only on 2 ppl not everyone.
Disembowel is only usefull for 3 jobs, so it depends of your party, static or pick up.

If they buffed the drg's potency last patch it's not for nothing I think, it's a little bit more complicated and punishing than the nin for the output it gives overhall and demands more coordination with party members (which ou can forget about it with pick ups).

Aggro management is just a bonus, it only guarentee you even more a free spot in end game PVE, the main arguement is and has always been Trick attack being over powered.
Right now if you were to estimate how much dps TA represent it'd be at least 500(?) and I'm being fair, it's way more and it scales a lot if you have really good players.
Yes nin is behind in terms of solo dps (not that much compared to DRG tho) yet it's nothing compared to how useful it is.
Even in non-end game PVE it's useful, all you need is players that actually care enough to know how to play properly and use it, otherwise don't bother and you still fine.

Your point on DRG's utility is kind of irrelevant, dragon sight and litany (+5% - 1person - 2min/+7.5% - Everyone - 3min VS 10% - Everyone - 1min) aren't even close to be as good as trick attack.
Not to mention that it is a different kind of "utility", buffing the party is something that NIN MNK and DRG have in common while aggro management is exclusive to NIN.

tl;dr No matter how you take it, trick attack alone makes NIN #1 DPS in term of utility, aggro management being pure bonus, wether you use it or not you'd still be #1, using it would just make you even more powerful.

I already told you that trick outweighs all of DRGs utility even with a ranged in the party. Based on that alone NIN should be lower than DRG, but even then based of logs NIN is higher than DRG in pretty much every fight at the higher percentiles. So balance is fucked anyway, but it is in NINs favour completely.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Think the Aeolian Edge nerf was to unincentivize doing 2 uncomboed AEs compared to a SE+GS prior to phase transition.

Previously:
SE + GS = 150p + 200p = 350p
AE + AE = 180p + 180p = 360p

Now:
SE + GS = 350p
AE + AE = 160p + 160p = 320p

As funny as it sounds, it used to be better to do 2 uncomboed Aeolin Edges compared to Spinning Edge + Gust slash prior to phase transition where you knew you could only get 2 more GCDs in. Although, AE base potency is still high enough to warrant using it over Spinning Edge if you know you can only get 1 more GCD in.

This wasn't a problem prior to GS getting nerfed from 220p to 200p, and now it's been addressed again.

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Exactly this. They don't want to encourage people to do unconventional stuff with uncombo'd weapon skills, and it's why we got these changes.