Cast Cure on Undead to Damage it

Hi, a fun and famous mechanic of FFXI is casting Cure V on ghost, skeleton, bogy type undead to damage it. Personally I want to see this return. Any type of healing spells should damage undead. Plus, it will give more healers incentive to dps ; ) When I was WHM in XI, I loved to MB with Cure. Boom. Also, Raise to insta-kill undead.

Okay. Some ideas seem ridiculous but in general, would you want to see this return?

Not just FFXI, pretty much all the older ones as well healing spells hurt undead.

This could be a raid mechanic, but I don't think it'll ever be just a normal property of the spells or creatures. Don't get me wrong, I love this type of thing in all fantasy games, not just final fantasy games, but it requires a much different type of balance where Undead creatures are different than other types.

I could see "Zombie" being an effect that causes the designated player to take damage from heals, not sure if they would be able to incorporate it to be cast on enemies now though.

We don't even have a proper elemental wheel. The likelihood of this happening is slim to none I'm afraid.

Can we have an elemental wheel please?

Water>fire>ice>wind>earth>lightning>water.

Holy><zombie

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Can we have an elemental wheel please?

Water>fire>ice>wind>earth>lightning>water.

Holy><zombie

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Wind > Fire > Ice > Wind
Earth > Lightning > Water > Earth
Astral > Umbral > Astral

Good old 1.0 elemental wheels (why having 1 wheel if you can have many wheels?)

Elemental wheels will never happen because jobs like Black Mage and Red Mage who use element-aspected spells in a manner you cannot just spam would get messed up and also they decided to remove it in the first place because they wanted to casualize the game for ARR.

Picturing a raid of 2 tanks and 6 white mages in order to down the undead boss makes me giggle.

This would likely require more recoding of the way the spell works than they are likely to bother with. (Cure as an undead nuke in FFXI was never exactly efficient, for the record -- it was something that was always more of a novelty than anything else.)

Elemental wheels aren't coming back. As absurd as it is for BLMs to kill Ifrit with Fire, that's kind of the way it has to work, otherwise the class would be completely neutered in that fight, and several others. They want to keep every job viable, even if not necessarily top-tier, for every fight.

Ifrit actually gets increased damage from ice in many (most/all?!) Final Fantasy games, so black mages instead of being "neutered" in that fight, would be glass cannons with no down-times for their heightened offense, as blizzard spells would deal increased damage just like fire spells do normally.

Also, due to how all jobs that have elements (not counting Holy since Holy and Dark are elements that are rarely resisted in Final Fantasy games...outside of undead absorbing the latter) have more than one element and usually two consecutive in the wheel, it's actually not terribly bad at all.

However, there is little to no chance of that in Final Fantasy XIV. The developers have proven to want to remove anything at all that requires planning or customization, and how materia is limited in stats (you can't add a stat that is already there at the "cap" for the item level, and seeing as that usually includes all the "good" stats you would want in the first place, your options to customize are actually barely more than zero), they prove to not want players have any part in making the games balance, outside of their playing skills.

As an RPG fan (and fan of Final Fantasy series) where there are many options at any stage of the game, this design is a real pain in the ass, but other than that, the game is very enjoyable...so meh. Gotta deal with it.

Undead enemies,huh ?
How about,Let's see,At some point in some 8-man content the undead adds spawn that invulnurable to any tanks and dps attack.
Those undead will automatically target MT and only healing spells from healer can damage them.
So both healers need to discuss before the fight who's gonna heal MT and who's gonna kill those undead.

Sadly this game doesn't support elemental affinity or monster types, so this will not happen. Furthermore you cannot cast Cure spells on enemies anyway. This, however, isn't impossible and may make for an interesting fight:

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I could see "Zombie" being an effect that causes the designated player to take damage from heals

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I could see "Zombie" being an effect that causes the designated player to take damage from heals, not sure if they would be able to incorporate it to be cast on enemies now though.

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That would actually be a fun debuff ^^
I'm all for a Cure that hurts undead mobs, I mean, come on, it's one of the oldest FF mechanics and a fun one ^^ (and my Cure would not be useless anymore when I mis TAB my targets.... ^^")

I remember back in Ragnarok Online this made Priests super-handy in undead areas/dungeons as their heals and AoE heals would do massive damage to undead as it was marked as "holy" element, sometimes one-shotting zombies. Thematically it's great, not sure how it fits in the FF lore though.

By that token a Phoenix Down would have to 1 shot an undead mob/raid boss.

Also the game's lore prevents such a trick - Cure spells are actually water aspected here (hence the fluid-like effect when you cast them, and water sprites materialize around the caster when it's cast, it's what those glowing blue orbs are) - they're not white magic at all but conjury, magic that comes from nature (the elementals of the Black Shroud specifically), not a deity.

Hence, no 'holy' effect (also most zombies in Eorzea are actually created by an alchemical potion and are not 'darkness' aligned, so that wouldn't even work anyway).

The lack of elemental wheel makes it less interesting than in FFXI. Back then we really had to plan what spell to cast to elemental mob, even water creatures like Crabs are weak against lightning.

Zombie debuff would be a fun raid mechanic. Any player not afflicted with zombie debuff will die in megadeath attack. However if they receive cure they will also take damage.

And to cure the debuff you have to /emote pray.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Zombie debuff would be a fun raid mechanic. Any player not afflicted with zombie debuff will die in megadeath attack. However if they receive cure they will also take damage.

And to cure the debuff you have to /emote pray.

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They already used that for Forgall, actually. His Mega Death instakills anyone without gradual zombification on them, but you need to have only one stack of the debuff, as two stacks will make you lose control of yourself and start attacking allies.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

The lack of elemental wheel makes it less interesting than in FFXI. Back then we really had to plan what spell to cast to elemental mob, even water creatures like Crabs areweak against lightning.

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If this is a FFXI reference, the it really wasn't at least for me, because for the most part you just used your highest level spell regardless of "weakness" since each spell was a bit stronger then the last, like thunder III doing more damage then blizzard III and stone IV doing more then both. Thunder III would not do more damage then stone IV on a crab, it just lessened the chance of doing partial damage (1/2, 1/4,1/8) There is an extremely short list of monsters that take static partial damage to elements, like elemental spirits, they do not take much to whatever element it is, and whatever element it is strong to. So if we use the little example of Stone IV, Thunder III and blizzard III, your strongest spell on an earth spirit would be blizzard III because of the static partial damage to the other 2 elements. It really wasn't that interesting because there was no increased damage for targeting a weakness, it was more of memorizing all the static partial damage stuff and knowing what to stay away from casting.

FFXIV however does have logic of FFXI's elemental wheel in the game, just hardly used. It is clear if you ever did a HW relic. For one turn in, you can do "astral-aspected materia, that is fire, wind, lightning, the 3 elements that made up the light skill chain in ffxi (the missing 4th be the holy element and we have no materia for that) and for Umbral-aspected it is ice, earth, water, same 3 elements for the darkness skill chain in ffxi, leaving out dark element.

But a real elemental wheel can't exist in this game since each job only has 1 or 2 elements, so it wouldn't be fair to lock out a job due to it. So that is likely why they left out the healing undead thing for 2.0+

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

By that token a Phoenix Down would have to 1 shot an undead mob/raid boss.

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Can't use Phoenix Down in battle though..

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

This would likely require more recoding of the way the spell works than they are likely to bother with. (Cure as an undead nuke in FFXI was never exactly efficient, for the record -- it was something that was always more of a novelty than anything else.)

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This as well, you simply did more damage with banish III or whatever, healing for damage never did much.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Plus, it will give more healers incentive to dps ; )

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I don't know why you think this is a good point. Healers do too much DPS and not enough healing. Healers heal too much and never help DPS. People need to stop using this as a point to whatever they're suggesting. It's an argument that will never be settled entirely. Just let that die.

Elemental wheels would screw up gearing and create issues for classes with elemental style attacks like BLM. Likewise, beyond it just being gimmicky, making cure spells damage undead would be only problematic in balance. Any enemy it would actually be particularly useful against, such as in raids and dungeons, would be immune to the effects.

FF14 is built on a fundamentally different design philosophy so a system that works FF11 isn't necessarily going to translate over well.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Ifrit actually gets increased damage from ice in many (most/all?!) Final Fantasy games, so black mages instead of being "neutered" in that fight, would be glass cannons with no down-times for their heightened offense, as blizzard spells would deal increased damage just like fire spells do normally.

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Unless your theoretical Ifrit takes ~80% more damage (to match af3 damage increase) from Ice spells then BLM would be nerfed in damage. That's not even bringing up how brain-dead the rotation becomes, being B1-B4x3 repeated until the boss dies. Does a Job with a main rotation of 2 buttons sound fun?

What about RDM in Air/Thunder/Fire/Earth resistant fights? How would they do their rotation optimally without suffering a large DPS loss?

Why not just take SMN, who has only unaspected magic, to completely all resistances?

Nearly every other FF game has it - I was rather disappointed that it doesn't work in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

By that token a Phoenix Down would have to 1 shot an undead mob/raid boss.

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IT CAN HAPPEN!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oLIfsj9hg

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Originally Posted by Aylis

IT CAN HAPPEN!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oLIfsj9hg

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Works on Abadon too :]

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Originally Posted by Avenger

Nearly every other FF game has it - I was rather disappointed that it doesn't work in FFXIV.

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In every other FF game, except FF XI, you decide who is part of the party and nobody complain.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Can we have an elemental wheel please?

Water>fire>ice>wind>earth>lightning>water.

Holy><zombie

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So you want SE to make classes more complex again after they made them easier? Not to mention that some classes would be completly useless in certain fights (meaning: players who play these classes will never see that content). Good idea.

Casting Stones at undead is blunt damage

Unless it's a really sharp rock

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Hi, a fun and famous mechanic of FFXI is casting Cure V on ghost, skeleton, bogy type undead to damage it. Personally I want to see this return. Any type of healing spells should damage undead. Plus, it will give more healers incentive to dps ; ) When I was WHM in XI, I loved to MB with Cure. Boom. Also, Raise to insta-kill undead.

Okay. Some ideas seem ridiculous but in general, would you want to see this return?

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Also when we have Zombie on us a heal should kill us.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also the game's lore prevents such a trick - Cure spells are actually water aspected here (hence the fluid-like effect when you cast them, and water sprites materialize around the caster when it's cast, it's what those glowing blue orbs are) - they're not white magic at all but conjury, magic that comes from nature (the elementals of the Black Shroud specifically), not a deity.

Hence, no 'holy' effect (also most zombies in Eorzea are actually created by an alchemical potion and are not 'darkness' aligned, so that wouldn't even work anyway).

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Check again, the Cure spells are actually wind aspected; not water. There's a green/wind aura that appears when you cast Cure spells which was similar when casting the old Aero II spell back when it had a cast time. One of the few water aspected spells that we have now is Raise which has a blue/water aura that appears when casting.

Esuna used to have the same blue/water aura but ever since it got changed into a cross role ability it's aura changed to some flashy/generic aura that all the 3 healers can use.

Also, not all undead/zombies are from an alchemical potion. Some are voidsent or brought to life by Necromancy.

In the lvl 60 White Mage job quest, you have to cast Cure spells on a Zombie Dragon to damage it after you've taken it's hp down to zero a few times.

Also, here's some quotes from FF Tactics for the Cure line of spells to further add to it's wind-aspected nature:
Cure: "Life's refreshing breeze, blow in energy! Cure!"
Cure 2: "Life's refreshing breeze, heal from the sky! Cure2!"
Cure 3: "Blessing breeze, blow in energy! Cure3!"
Cure 4: "Mighty breeze, heal from the sky! Cure4!"

As for the Holy/Astral element and undead, I found some interesting things about it:

*There is a Pomander of Resolution that does extra damage to undead enemies in Palace of the Dead: "Pomander of Resolution: Transforms the user into Kuribu, with the Heavenly Judge ability. This is a ground-targetted AoE that deals 750 damage (12500 to undead) and stuns all enemies - living or dead - who are not stun immune for (4/2/1 diminishing) seconds. Undead enemies include: Dark Dragon, Palace Knight, Insistent Inquisitor, Palace Mummy, Palace Corse, Palace Wraith, Nybeth Obdilord and his summoned zombies."

*Back in early 1.0 there were other actual Astral(Holy) and Umbral(Dark) spells as shown here:
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

*The Astral(Holy) spells were Banish and Dia while Umbral (Dark) spells were Scourge and Bio.

*Light Sprites and a few other mobs still use Banish and Banish III.

*Astral is composed of Fire, Thunder, and Wind while Umbral is composed of Ice, Earth, and Water (Hence why Black Mage's buffs are called Astral Fire and Umbral Ice as well)

*Holy's description says that it does unaspected damage but since ability descriptions that say "Does ____ aspected damage" is pretty much flavor text, it's safe to assume that it is indeed Astral-aspected.

I'm pretty much half asleep and rambling at this point but hey! The more you know!

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Also when we have Zombie on us a heal should kill us.

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No please what sort of masochistic madman are you :')
24-mans are bedlam enough as it is >.<

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Originally Posted by Roll

Check again, the Cure spells are actually wind aspected; not water. There's a green/wind aura that appears when you cast Cure spells which was similar when casting the old Aero II spell back when it had a cast time. One of the few water aspected spells that we have now is Raise which has a blue/water aura that appears when casting.

Esuna used to have the same blue/water aura but ever since it got changed into a cross role ability it's aura changed to some flashy/generic aura that all the 3 healers can use.

Also, not all undead/zombies are from an alchemical potion. Some are voidsent or brought to life by Necromancy.

In the lvl 60 White Mage job quest, you have to cast Cure spells on a Zombie Dragon to damage it after you've taken it's hp down to zero a few times.

Also, here's some quotes from FF Tactics for the Cure line of spells to further add to it's wind-aspected nature:
Cure: "Life's refreshing breeze, blow in energy! Cure!"
Cure 2: "Life's refreshing breeze, heal from the sky! Cure2!"
Cure 3: "Blessing breeze, blow in energy! Cure3!"
Cure 4: "Mighty breeze, heal from the sky! Cure4!"

As for the Holy/Astral element and undead, I found some interesting things about it:

*There is a Pomander of Resolution that does extra damage to undead enemies in Palace of the Dead: "Pomander of Resolution: Transforms the user into Kuribu, with the Heavenly Judge ability. This is a ground-targetted AoE that deals 750 damage (12500 to undead) and stuns all enemies - living or dead - who are not stun immune for (4/2/1 diminishing) seconds. Undead enemies include: Dark Dragon, Palace Knight, Insistent Inquisitor, Palace Mummy, Palace Corse, Palace Wraith, Nybeth Obdilord and his summoned zombies."

*Back in early 1.0 there were other actual Astral(Holy) and Umbral(Dark) spells as shown here:
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

*The Astral(Holy) spells were Banish and Dia while Umbral (Dark) spells were Scourge and Bio.

*Light Sprites and a few other mobs still use Banish and Banish III.

*Astral is composed of Fire, Thunder, and Wind while Umbral is composed of Ice, Earth, and Water (Hence why Black Mage's buffs are called Astral Fire and Umbral Ice as well)

*Holy's description says that it does unaspected damage but since ability descriptions that say "Does ____ aspected damage" is pretty much flavor text, it's safe to assume that it is indeed Astral-aspected.

I'm pretty much half asleep and rambling at this point but hey! The more you know!

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Healing spells element varies by game, I seen them earth, water, "light" (holy/ w/e, FFXI it was def light/holy element)

given FF's general history and FFXIV, I would guess healing is one of the Astral elements (fire, wind, thunder, holy/light) It would make most sense in this game to have healing backed by wind or light/holy.

Also cast visuals isn't proof for anything:
https://youtu.be/6pwD8hxaeL4?t=76
This is a light based spell, but it uses the black magic casting animation for it. It is from FFXI but still enough for me to question such logic.

I'm not sure I'd want the spells themselves to be usable on undead, and as many stated, this would require too much of a re-code. But I wouldn't mind some bosses to be vulnerable to a healer's Limit Break. DPS LB would still work just as well, obviously, but now the healer LB would also be viable offensively in those encounters.

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Originally Posted by Cenerae

Picturing a raid of 2 tanks and 6 white mages in order to down the undead boss makes me giggle.

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Well, someone already did this with Susano.

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Originally Posted by Roll

*Astral is composed of Fire, Thunder, and Wind while Umbral is composed of Ice, Earth, and Water (Hence why Black Mage's buffs are called Astral Fire and Umbral Ice as well)

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Some pedantry here, but that's not exactly true. Lore-wise, Astral and Umbral aspect more correspond to the concept of "active" and "passive/resting". The first three are most often found in Astral form, and the last three are often Umbral. Astral Fire, for example, produces the fireballs that Black Mages throw. Umbral Fire would likely produce a dehydrating heat, but no flame. Hence the era names- the Astral part of an era is the active growth and prosperity period, then a calamity happens which ushers in an Umbral era, a period of rest and recovery.

If this happens (which it won't, ever) RIP WHM healing themselves while targeting an enemy.