Tank "Role Action" consolidated feedback thread.

Sentinel is moved to Role Actions.
(Shadow Walls deleted, but keep the animation)

Reprisal is DRK exclusive.

DRK Rampart has Shadowskin animation.

Remove Shirk.

There are better ways to make tank swapping transitions easier without completely neutering the enmity system.

I.e. Provoke blah blah usual affects, and places a 5 second debuff on target. Target cannot gain enmity from any other source.

The skill itself is mind numbingly overpowered and should either be nerfed or flat out removed imho.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Remove Shirk.

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Dear god no. wtf even

I would really like to see bloodbath on the tank role action.

Honestly? In my opinion, the Role Action System should have never come to existance in its current form. Instead of having to choose from 5 out of 10 skills, why not just give us access to the 10 skills? While I agree that some of the skills are situational, others are not (Rampart, Provoke and Reprisal for example are almost mandatory, if you do 8 man content, shirk is godlike).

I understand that this system was put in place partly to remove button bloat, but putting mandatory skills in there reduces the amount of choice players really have.

I think its even worse for healers, whose mandatory skills include the mp-regen, the cleanse, largesse and swiftcast, meaning they can take one more skill. Thats why most healers I know only protect at the start of a 4 man and then adjust their xrole skills to something else.

To me, it seems like too many skills in the xrole system are base requirements for the role you are playing. SqEx could have just given us access to those skills without choice.

The "Role Pool" for tanks is a disaster. They should have just left the cross class system, but removed the class requirement. Basically, your hit lvl 24 on WAR, you can select provoke, etc. I don't understand why they took the exact same abilities from 3 different classes consolidated them into one ability and threw it in the pool. It wrecked some classes mechanics hard for no reason. "fixing" ability bloat by forcing you to select abilities that you once had and need is just asinine and insulting.

Rampart - fine as is.

Anticipation - trash-tier. Completely useless outside of 4-mans, and even then only situationally useful.

Shirk - Great addition to end-game tanking. Being able to use it to stack emnity OR to force a tank swap onto a slow OT is great. Trolling use also a plus for funsies with friends.

Awareness - solid for what it is. No complaints on it's effectiveness but a lower CD (90-100s) would be nice, given how niche crit immunity can be.

Conv - another solid one. No complaints or changes needed.

Low Blow - Just keep the native stuns for DRK and WAR. Remove their potency if you have too. Trying to remember to take Shirk off my bar in a 4-man and replace it with LB, then swap the two again in 8-man content is ridiculous.

Interject - useless. There's nothing this skill does that a stun can't do already. Only the stun will work on anything, not just magic.

Ultimatum - useless. I suppose it may have niche use as a "backup" provoke in case things go south and provoke is on CD, but there are no situations in game where generating snap aggro in an aoe situation requires a provoke-like skill. Current aoe emnity skills are more than enough.

Reprisal - solid skill, hampered by it's CD. Keep the duration where it is at 5s, but lower the CD to 45s. You won't see tanks spamming it (i.e. trying to keep it up as much as possible on CD), but it will become easier to coordinate between two tanks to mitigate raid-wide damage.

Provoke - no comment. It's provoke. Duh.

My Suggestions

Scrap Low Blow; bring back Brutal Swing/Low Blow as native skills to WAR and DRK. Ditch Ultimatum and Anticipation completely. Lower the Cd on Reprisal, and either give Interject some use, or remove it as well (my preferred option).

In place of Ultimatum, Anticipation and Interject, add in a role action that functions as a charge. 0 potency, 30s CD, adds emnity on par with Flash. This gives PLD a charge options, and allows DRK and WAR to grab another oGCD charge for further mobility and/or threat gen (not like threat gen is needed really, but if you make it an early level role action then it's something that can help up-and-coming tanks). For the second role action, add in Bloodbath. Carbon copy it from the DPS role ability if you have too. 20s is fine, although I won't lie and say calling it Bloodshower and making it 30s would be great to.

Finally, add a final new role skill, "Protectors Gambit." 150s CD that resets the CD on Rampart, Sentinel, Vengeance and Shadowskin, at the cost of lowering the tanks damage dealt by 5% for 15s. The idea behind this skill is essentially a mulligan in higher-end or progression content, while also still providing a good deal of usage in smaller group stuff, say with large aoe-focused pulls, or during world content such as hunts or FATE's.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Remove Shirk.

There are better ways to make tank swapping transitions easier without completely neutering the enmity system.

I.e. Provoke blah blah usual affects, and places a 5 second debuff on target. Target cannot gain enmity from any other source.

The skill itself is mind numbingly overpowered and should either be nerfed or flat out removed imho.

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Yeah. no. Remove Ultimatimum instead.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Interject - useless. There's nothing this skill does that a stun can't do already. Only the stun will work on anything, not just magic.

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Actually, it does have use. There are certain bosses with cast skills that aren't silence immune, but are immune to stuns.

The first bot in A6S was one. The Iron Giant add in O3S is another. Although you hopefully have a different party member to throw in a silence.

I think too many are mandatory, meaning other classes (Dark Knight cough cough) gave up skills to this for no reason.

Rampart and Provoke are undeniably mandatory. Shirk is in 8-man content. How much choice does that actually leave you?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Remove Shirk.

There are better ways to make tank swapping transitions easier without completely neutering the enmity system.

I.e. Provoke blah blah usual affects, and places a 5 second debuff on target. Target cannot gain enmity from any other source.

The skill itself is mind numbingly overpowered and should either be nerfed or flat out removed imho.

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I had to laugh at this, because it really is the most lowkey overpowered ability currently in the game.

What if Ultimatum did this instead:
applies diversion effect to party, transfers enmity to tank while active?

They need to start with giving back rampart, shadow skin and foresight to their respective classes and go from there. Theres still not many choices that tanks can make in these pools and for some, like DRK, you pretty much need to grab all the mitigation you can, especially below 70.

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet.

There is no problem with the current tank role action skills. Yes, some of them are useless, but that's not the main problem.

What I find INCREDIBLY frustrating, is that they released a new expansion, gave us a bunch of new role actions skills, and yet... WE STILL ONLY HAVE 5 ROLE ACTION SLOTS?!

So basically, the fix for this would be to allow level 70 characters to pick up 1 more role action skill, for a total of 6. This would allow people to pick the interrupts, which right now are a bother to use, to the point where they're not even worth slotting compared to what else you're able to take.

Rampart
Convalescence
Reprisal
Provoke
Shirk/Awareness

Nothing can contest those. With the extra slot, we can at least pick between Interject/Low Blow for certain fights, and Ultimatum/Anticipation for added utility.

Cross role needs to be full of abilities that are useful but situational and thus never required 100% of the time. Right now it isn't.

Awareness and the stun/silence are probably the only abilities in cross role right now that meet this metric.

Rampart should never have gone into cross-role, as it is far too powerful for this purpose. Bloodbath and Foresight should've been merged into a single ability with a dual effect, and Shadowskin should have had a different mechanic to a similar effect. (+30% defense and magic defense or something that equates to roughly -20% damage reduction).

The problem is the tanks lost varying amounts of mitigation that don't have parity with eachother and not all of them can get it back.

The placement of Anticpation in cross-role is utterly baffling. Dark Dance+Reprisal was a core personal mitigation tool for DRK, the raid mitigation was just icing on the cake, as you rarely tried to or even had the luxury to try to have it up when it would matter, so it was mostly just mitigating whatever it mitigated. Dark Dance and Reprisal should have been merged into a single ability (Reduces damage taken by 10% while increasing parry rate by 30%). Anticipation and Reprisal as the exist now are garbage compared to what they once were, and the former is not valued by PLD or WAR at all as they have conflicting synergy with it (PLD blocks overwrite parries, RI is 100% superior on WAR).

Speaking of WAR, all of WAR's existing cooldowns have ridiculous synergy with cross-role abilities. Thrill with Conva, RI with Awareness. These pairings offer similar mitigation to Rampart, so why was Rampart necessary? And why did WAR lose the additional combination of Vengeance+Bloodbath?

Even Provoke/Shirk being in cross role is fluff, and if they were going to make an ability as powerful as Shirk, they should have simply baked its effect into unique taunts for each tank.
For example:

PLD: Provoke - places you at the top of the target's enmity list while increasing said enmity value by 5%.
WAR: Taunt - averages your enmity with that of the current enmity target, and then increases the result by 50%.
DRK: Decoy - triples enmity generation while forcing the target to target you for 20s.

When I look at DPS cross-role abilities (I don't know much about the healers'), I see nothing that increases DPS directly. Nothing. Gone are the days of things like Blood for Blood, Internal Release, etc. So if DPS jobs aren't having to go into cross-role to increase their DPS, why are tank jobs forced to do the same to survive and mitigate damage?

Things like RNG mitigation, mitigation that only works for physical/magical damage, these are the things that belong in cross-role.

In much the same way that Bloodbath was moved to DPS, there are abilities in other roles' cross-role rosters that frankly belong on tanks. Palisade, Apoc, and Eye for an Eye feel like tank abilities more than anything else.

The role skill system in general is kind of bunk because they're not really choices... Must have skills should just automatically be learned by everyone at a certain level and not need slotting.(voke, shirk)

Role should be QoL and utility and maybe more of a commitment like a spec.

Additionally, there's no good reason for the way we learn skills to exist as they are. Butcher's block is not something that needs to be learned separately from skull sunder... Much less a class quest skill. Ignoring the debate of it being on its own button or not(it shouldn't be) all of our skills that basically belong together and are lackluster alone(why is eye a 50 skill? Maim is a dead combo until 42 or whatever when we learn path. Why is ib 35 while the beast gauge is useless for the most part until that point? Why is onslaught so expensive and also not learned until 62?) are learned at staggered and nonsensical times for pretty much no good reason. They could very easily just all be learned in pairs at no real impact to the learning curve. The number of skills never really needed to be trimmed in the first place, the number of buttons did.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

snip

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They could have just removed Spinning Slash/Savage Blade/Skull Sunder entirely, and nerfed the potency of RoH/PS/BB to like 200-ish and made them stand-alone GCDs.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

They could have just removed Spinning Slash/Savage Blade/Skull Sunder entirely, and nerfed the potency of RoH/PS/BB to like 200-ish and made them stand-alone GCDs.

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Sure, that's fine too ofc.

There's a lot of things that could have been done and they really just dropped the ball on trimming anything and it really just seems more like a homogenization patch the more I think about it. Maim could have very easily have just been deleted and built into path and eye, or heavy swing. Other stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

In much the same way that Bloodbath was moved to DPS, there are abilities in other roles' cross-role rosters that frankly belong on tanks. Palisade, Apoc, and Eye for an Eye feel like tank abilities more than anything else.

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Gonna disagree on this point.

FF14's utility division is odd at best, and generally runs counter to the Trinity formula (And while innovating is a good thing, this is more shifting than innovating.)

-Tanks- generally have access to the permanent defense/offense reducing targeted debuffs. It not only cements them as the 'Priority' marker, but also solidifies their place in the group. Tanks dealing less damage is fine, because tanks enable everyone else by virtue of better mitigation and enhancing via focus fire mechanics. With this in mind, the 'Resistance Down' afflictions that are scattered about make very little sense on the DPS, but are much better placed on the tanks.

However, selective protection is generally the realm of -Healers- and occasionally DPS, in very select variations.

Palisade makes more sense as a Healer Role ability. Eye for an Eye in its current form is strange and honestly could be between any role of Healer, Tank, and Caster. Apocastasis similar to Palisade would be something under Healers.

Mitigation abilities are generally Tank related when they are -self-, and Healer related when they are -given-. This is primarily because the tanks responsibilities are enemy-centered while the healer responsibilities are party-centered. In this regard, 'Arms Reach' definitely makes more sense as a Tank Ability, but would also arguably be much stronger.

Rampart should go back being mandatory tank skill, period. There is no reason for it to be optional in the first place. I COULD argue for most other optional role skills, but not Rampart.

Knowing what mitigation we have access to with the fixed recasts makes balancing content easier.

The only reason Rampart is in the cross role is because of PLDs Intervention.

Although I I do firmly agree that cross role should be utility only and not mitigation.
Provoke/Ultimatum
, Shirk, and Awareness should definitely stay.

the problem is they put two things together into the cross role system wich doesn't work together.

they should either put mandatory skills like mitigation and provoke into cross role so every tank has access to those skills all the time without choices.

or they should put situational skills into the cross role system with choices what to take.

but they put the two things together, so the only choice we have is which mandatory skill we don't take. and this doesn't feel good...

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

asdf

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You know, it completely escaped me until I read this (I guess because my brain is wired still that Rampart=PLD), that PLD is as far as I know the only job in the game with an explicitly stated and specific interaction between one of its job abilities and what is now a cross-role skill. Feels really, really weird.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You know, it completely escaped me until I read this (I guess because my brain is wired still that Rampart=PLD), that PLD is as far as I know the only job in the game with an explicitly stated and specific interaction between one of its job abilities and what is now a cross-role skill. Feels really, really weird.

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Not completely true, but mostly, SMN gains one more bahamut wyrmwave if they use addle (any action) within their Bahamut summoning

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Originally Posted by Aletin

Not completely true, but mostly, SMN gains one more bahamut wyrmwave if they use addle (any action) within their Bahamut summoning

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Yeah, but the tooltip of Intervention SPECIFICALLY mentions Rampart. Its almost like SE knows the skill is mandatory... >.>

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yeah, but the tooltip of Intervention SPECIFICALLY mentions Rampart. Its almost like SE knows the skill is mandatory... >.>

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Yeah it's really awkward, as encounters are even designed with rampart in mind usually. I think they really just need to make it so every tank has it baked in, it was kind of dumb to make it a removable option to begin with.

Also to OP: For all that is sane and unholy no way in hell would I want to lose more mitigation, let alone shadow wall, to the role skill pile.

stuff like rampart, conva, anticipation, provoke, awaresness should be native to any tank. as someone mentioned in another topic cross class skills should be for utility (or situational) skills.
When they first talked about cross class skills i wasn't expecting that we still need to chose 5 out of 10 skills. At least SE could lift that restriction.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yeah, but the tooltip of Intervention SPECIFICALLY mentions Rampart. Its almost like SE knows the skill is mandatory... >.>

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You know, it completely escaped me until I read this (I guess because my brain is wired still that Rampart=PLD), that PLD is as far as I know the only job in the game with an explicitly stated and specific interaction between one of its job abilities and what is now a cross-role skill. Feels really, really weird.

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There is also Eye for an Eye and SCH's Emergency Tactic.

have Reprisal, Low Blow, and Interject do 120 potency damage each and increase duration of Reprisal to 15 seconds and Inject's Silence duration to 5 seconds

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

I would really like to see bloodbath on the tank role action.

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Wouldn't that make PLD even more powerful?

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Wouldn't that make PLD even more powerful?

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It would make all tanks more powerful. Isn't that the idea of giving jobs role actions?

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Originally Posted by Quor

Anticipation - trash-tier. Completely useless outside of 4-mans, and even then only situationally useful.

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For dungeons you couldn't be more wrong. It has an amazingly short CD, it's basically up for every trash pull.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

For dungeons you couldn't be more wrong. It has an amazingly short CD, it's basically up for every trash pull.

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That's why I said "useless outside of 4-mans." It's pretty good for 4-mans, definitely more useful than Reprisal, but then again, 4-man's aren't really a problem. Even the biggest pull in Ala Mhigo or Doma can be handled with Rampart + job unique defensive + job super defensive if need be.

Now, if you took Anticipation and added a Bloodbath effect to it, then it would be a great addition, and a solid lock for any 4-man. Even in an 8-man it would be worthwhile as it would give an OT the ability to take care of themselves much more easily. Between a Regen and/or Cure, Storm's Path/Souleater, and Bloodticipation, most raid-wide damage would be taken care of.

Eh, Anticipation would be better paired with Awareness than Blodobath.

Anticipation (And by lesser extent Bulwark) is hampered greatly by enemy criticals. Awareticipation would at least not require a second cooldown just to function, as the 30% parry is completely overwritten on critical hits (which will happen at a greater frequency because large pack pulls)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Eh, Anticipation would be better paired with Awareness than Blodobath.

Anticipation (And by lesser extent Bulwark) is hampered greatly by enemy criticals. Awareticipation would at least not require a second cooldown just to function, as the 30% parry is completely overwritten on critical hits (which will happen at a greater frequency because large pack pulls)

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You just described RI+Awareness for WAR's. Which is nice in large trash pulls, since it's basically the same thing as Rampart overall, minus the effectiveness on magic, which tends to not really matter when you're doing huge trash pulls.

The issue is largely with parry itself; it's pretty much trash as a defensive mechanic. Block is superior to it for PLD, and overrides it naturally anyway. Parry used to be nice for DRK's for resets on LB but with the changes in SB that's no longer a factor. Meanwhile, WAR has had parry covered since the inception of Raw Intuition, which does the job of Anticipation better than anything else, and is consequence free as long as it's paired with Awareness. Parry seriously needs some sort of advantage to it beyond just a 20% reduction in physical damage taken from the parried hit. That's an issue with parry though, not Anticipation. As a WAR at least, I have no need for Anticipation, since the combo of Veng + RI/Aware + Rampart is enough for even the biggest trash pack.

PLD "lost": Rampart, Convalescence, Provoke, and Awareness.

WAR lost: Foresight, Fracture, Bloodbath, Brutal Swing, and Mercy Stroke.

DRK lost: Shadowskin, Scourge, Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Dance, Delirium.

See the issue? WAR and DRK (DRK especially) lost class defining skills for their class they either can NOT get back in any form at all or can only slot crappy versions that are 100% by far, waaay worse then how they used to be.

PLD is the only tank that can slot everything they used to have and still have one slot left over for something they want.

I really upsets me that they removed the awesome shadowskin animation for the boring as hell rampart. It upsets me that they replaced it with rampart instead of allowing you to slot it alongside shadowskin and shadow wall (something DRK desperately needs to happen). It upsets me that WAR simply had foresight removed, they didn't change it to suit the class more like how they did with PLD and their combos, they just removed it. Same for mercy stroke or fracture, they didn't change them to make them less awkward, they just removed it. Same for scourge and delirium, they took away options and didn't replace them. Unlike PLD. And losing Dark Dance was a blow as well.

The whole tank role system benefits one tank and one tank only, and that tank is PLD.

All they did when "pruning" was made DRK and WAR be far less useful to the party, be far less unique in terms of animations and design, and give heavy heavy nerfs to the two classes while PLD was literally untouched by this system. (Actually, it benifits because it has 1 slot to pick and choose what it wants whereas DRK and PLD have to drop a skill if they want a stun/silence/any other particular skill for either general play, dungeons, or any other specific situation).

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

All they did when "pruning" was made DRK and WAR be far less useful to the party, be far less unique in terms of animations and design, and give heavy heavy nerfs to the two classes while PLD was literally untouched by this system. (Actually, it benifits because it has 1 slot to pick and choose what it wants whereas DRK and PLD have to drop a skill if they want a stun/silence/any other particular skill for either general play, dungeons, or any other specific situation).

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If half abilities are mandatory and other half is optional then everyone will be going for mandatory over optional unless an encounter says otherwise... so does not work unless that happens...

It's not a big deal, but I kind of feel like it's not fair that now only PLD has a built-in stun move. If WAR and DRK got theirs back, that'd free up a Role slot on those classes for those situations that need it (a stun), and wouldn't really be all that button-bloaty.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Wouldn't that make PLD even more powerful?

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Wasn't Bloodbath already available to both PLD and DRK pre-4.0?

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Wasn't Bloodbath already available to both PLD and DRK pre-4.0?

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It was but Stormblood launch it is now melee DPS only... and only few jobs that got bloodbath before role action took over probably know how to really use it now... DRG and MNK(I think MNK, not sure... never really lvled it) and all of the tanks really know how to use it to put less stress on healers... But tanks lost bloodbath so only a few DPS mains who got bloodbath pre-4.0 know how to use it now...