Request: delay enemy actions , calibration feature

tldr version: Ifrit still hits even when I'm outside AoE, want more leeway. Delay Ifrit's attacks by the same amount of time we are delayed by.

First of all, my reason for this request is because of the current inevitable server delay.
Heres a video to show this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb9BF50bPyA

The video explains why the UI feels sluggish - its because actions made by you are delayed by the game to keep you and the server in sync. However this can't be applied to movement or the game will feel broken (remember the slow cursor in beta before they added "hardware mouse" option?), so what is seen by the moving player and observers are different.

This has existed since release and I discovered it at that time while trying to dodge puk's backflip. Not being able to dodge a puk was not much of a problem, but it became so to many players during the Ifrit fight. Though you can see eruptions and pepperonis stay on the ground for 3 seconds , you only have less than a second to react to it. SE responded with a "Feedback request on Network Delay" , but the actual problem is not the network because it happens to every player, including ones in Japan.

This delay cannot be fixed until the server improves (or as I remember , when 2.0 comes) so I am suggesting a workaround.

Implement an optional feature in the menu. Have the player warp to an instanced area when they select this. The player will be required to run to to a point on the map and the client records the current time when the player reaches the point. The server also records the time when the players reaches the point which results in a difference in time between the two. Then the player is warped back to his original location.

All enemy weaponskills that target an area will be delayed further by the difference in time to that player, giving that player some time to dodge an attack.

The process is a bit of a hassle, so players can choose not to go through it and have no extra delay on enemy actions just like now.

Heres an example. If I have a delay of 2 seconds, so If I reached a certain point on the map on my client at 10:00:00, the server would see my character reaching that point at 10:00:02. Then weaponskills such as eruption and plumes would erupt 2 seconds later, but only for me.
Let's imagine that the devs use a test server which gives them next to no delay. The dev would reach a certain point on the map on their client at 10:00:00, the test server would see them reaching that point at 10:00:00. This means that weaponskills happen 0 seconds later, which gives them no leeway.
So anyone who happens to not experience this delay or "lag" get no extra time.

Thoughts?
Like if you want to see this feature!

You obviously have a lot of experience with databases, programming, and networking - like totally.

I like that you're trying to provide a fix, but I don't think that will be easy (or downright practical) to implement.

I'd honestly want to know what the heck Square is planning on doing to address this position update latency before 2.0. 2.0 is a year away. I don't think I'd be able to keep playing until 2.0 comes out if Square doesn't address it within the next several months.

A second alternative I can think of is reducing the actual damage AoE but keep the graphics the same size. So a line AoE damage for a conal looking attack, and a smaller circle damage AoE for eruption etc. The targeted player will still have to dodge but it would mean adjacent players would not have to anymore.

The main problem about dodging those is the short duration of the enemy preparing the attack. Just increase it by 1-2 seconds and everything becomes dodge-able. Thing is, it will be still easier with people with low latency to dodge, potentially becoming a cakewalk for them.

Now, about Ifrit's plumes, that's a different problem. The server doesn't calculate your position but interpolates it. So if your interpolated position happens to be near a plume area, you're dead. They can't fix that unless they change the way server calculates your position, which most likely won't be possible until the engine switch. All we can do is hope they'll fix it in the new client.

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Originally Posted by Bahn

I like that you're trying to provide a fix, but I don't think that will be easy (or downright practical) to implement.

I'd honestly want to know what the heck Square is planning on doing to address this position update latency before 2.0. 2.0 is a year away. I don't think I'd be able to keep playing until 2.0 comes out if Square doesn't address it within the next several months.

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It's not latency.... If that was the issue, then it would affect people in Japan, but it doesn't. It's something to with a disconnect between what the client see and what the server sees, and when. It may be related to too many server calls during the process, or too much happening on the server end, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

The main problem about dodging those is the short duration of the enemy preparing the attack. Just increase it by 1-2 seconds and everything becomes dodge-able. Thing is, it will be still easier with people with low latency to dodge, potentially becoming a cakewalk for them.

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I'm not sure if you have read my posts or not, but what I am trying to suggest is a feature that increases the time depending on how much delay that person has, so a person with low "latency" would not get more time to dodge.

For the plumes, it is designed so that you can run out before it explodes. You can tell because on your client, you are able to get out of the AoE. We still take damage because the server thinks that we are where we were 2-3 seconds ago.

Like Ispano said, its not a latency problem. I think that this affects ALL players, except the devs who use a different server (probably). But just incase, this feature will not give players that have zero delay more time to dodge.

Err... I said it's not a latency for the plumes myself. It's tied to the way the server calculates your position and I'm sure the devs get it too.

Your fix won't going to work simply because of the large overhead produced by it. The servers are overloaded atm already, making them apply the offset for each player online would increase the load even more.

Also, the latency depends on the time of the day and network load, which means you would have to recalibrate before every fight which is too much hassle.

It's easier to just take the delay into account, follow the chatlog (successful actions by enemies) and not look at the graphic effects (cracks), since that's what lags behind.

What I suggested in my post above was an example that could work, but would introduce unfair advantage to people with less latency.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Err... I said it's not a latency for the plumes myself. It's tied to the way the server calculates your position and I'm sure the devs get it too.

Your fix won't going to work simply because of the large overhead produced by it. The servers are overloaded atm already, making them apply the offset for each player online would increase the load even more.

Also, the latency depends on the time of the day and network load, which means you would have to recalibrate before every fight which is too much hassle.

It's easier to just take the delay into account, follow the chatlog (successful actions by enemies) and not look at the graphic effects (cracks), since that's what lags behind.

What I suggested in my post above was an example that could work, but would introduce unfair advantage to people with less latency.

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It shouldn't matter where the plumes appear, even if you are right in the centre of it you should be able to dodge it , given enough time.

I imagine the workload on the server would be similar to enmity values, since each player has a different enmity value for multiple mobs. On top of that , the enmity is changing while this offset is not.

Yes I think that the delay will change depending on time of day, so I'm thinking if the game could calibrate automatically (eg calibrate when you move/do an action etc) without sending you into an instance. That was just an example of a possible fix. I don't know enough about the game to think of an exact solution, but the idea is there.

I find myself watching the chatlog often for boss fights and act accordingly, but not everyone can or wants to do this. Most people would rather watch the graphics rather than text right? I'm requesting this mainly for my LS members... Its very frustrating to see them die (and some complain about the unfairness) which leads them to giving up or thinking less about themselves which makes me sad =( .

Yeah its an issue

But after seeing it for 9 years and never been fixed in FFXI I dont see it being fixed here because I am 100% certain the developers are incapable of setting it up correctly.

It is likely the way it is because movement was a low priority in initial development and movement in battle not originally planned by the previous developers. And they forgot when it come to make Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Sylkis

It shouldn't matter where the plumes appear, even if you are right in the centre of it you should be able to dodge it , given enough time.

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I do agree, thing is, the way current engine works the server gets your position too late -> if you are on one of those small isles or run out just in time, you will get hit.

For my part, it isn't such a big issue cause i'm usually not in reach of plumes being a PGL, unless i mess up real bad.

I think this would be less of an issue for me if i didn't have to deal with getting stuck in a WS or casting animation at bad times, but even so, when I do get out of the circle, I would like to actually be out of the circle and not take damage. Some are saying this is not a big deal, when it really is a big deal. Its a handicap that some people rather not have to play with. I also don't think we will see any fixes to latency issues prior to 2.0, so I think they should do 2 things until 2.0's new servers; They either should Reduce the number of plumes or make the damage relative to your distance to the center of the plume, so if you 'kinda dodge it' you wont take 600 dmg, and instead take 200.

I play with 350ms of ping (i live in Argentina) and i don't have any problem to win a ifrit fight without get hit by a crack or plume. I usually play borh lnc and cnj.

Yeah such a pain. Severs in FFXI were the same way. Though it's more of an issue with new games today.

This SHOULD be fixed with 2.0's servers unless they get monkeys to code them and make the same stupid mistakes. I really hope not.

It's tiring to run to a mobs flank when he starts his TP move, where you can safely avoid it (because the game takes positioning into account) only to get hit anyway, even when you are clearly out of harms way.

all i know is the ifrit fight is THE most frustrating gaming experience in my decades of gaming... ever

and it can only be put down to the design and development decisions, the only saddening thing is this is content from the new development team- so should i expect more of the same?!?

their latest gaff- the moogle fight, you have to do a 45+min pre-req everytime u win and considering the drop rate this can ONLY result in more frustration if not down right aggrevation- this seems absolute common sense!! so the next question i ask is why implement it!?!?!?!

a little advice to SE, people have fun when they are winning, if the drop rate is 1% but the fight is winnable by a random party people will be having a good time regardless.. im not saying make the fight a cakewalk though.

if SE keeps stats on these primal fights i expect that 1/50 is a win.. maybe SE should take a look at those stats and consider their effect on the morale of their players?

DEVELOPERS PLEASE MAKE THE GAME FUN

are people really still having problems with ifrit? and are people still calling the moogle fight unwinnable?

lol idgi

for one, people have been having no problems with farming ifrit since a week after implementation. if you're having problems still, you're doing it wrong. people have been kind enough to give detailed strategies all over the internets. pay attention, stop sucking.

yes, server lag sucks. but it's a dead horse that's been beaten absolutely to death and there likely isn't any fix coming for the current game client. lag and animation lock should be gone in 2.0. waiting for that blows, i agree- but this is what we have to work with in the meantime, and if other people are working with it just fine... well.

secondly, people are having no problems beating moogles, even sans-exploit. if you're having problems still, you're doing it wrong. suck it up and play better.

yes, farming the pop items sucks. yes, it sucks that we can't farm stacks of them during downtime, and it makes moogle feel like even more of a grind when you don't have that opportunity to really take a break between kills anymore. but the drop rate isn't any different from ifrit (aside from requiring more totems to pick a moogle weapon). the fight is actually really easy, the exploit is entirely unnecessary to win, and nerfing it any further would make it an absolute joke.

tl;dr there are certainly things that can and should be improved upon in time, but in the meantime- stop blaming the game for *your* shortcomings as a player.

this is final fantasy. the fights are supposed to be challenging (in some way). the bosses aren't supposed to just lie down and let you take their loot... yet they already kind of are. if you need it to be even *easier* to win, well. maybe don't ruin the game for the rest of us and go play hello kitty MMO adventure.

firstly im talking specifically about the ifrit fight.

the difficulty of the moogle doesnt concern me, tbh i havent even fought him, but i know about having to do the pre-reqs after every win and like i said this would obviously be frustrating and hence my questioning the dev teams decisions and their competence.

its not my own short comings that concern me, its the short comings of the average party member who i am reliant on.

like i said, let SE take a look at the win rate and then make adjustments to their future designs, this would be balanced on hard data and im sure even you cant argue with that..

I estimate 1/50 is a win, does SE think that is ok? do you? hell even if im way off and its 1/20 is that even ok?

if im wrong and the win rate is something respectable like say 1/5 then im talking crap... but i dont think so, and certainly not from what ive seen.

XI was considered a difficult game but it was never this infuriating..

i see people getting frustrated with losses in this fight all the time- so- with this in mind- your words above dont make much sense to me.

so you dont have to try and belittle me to make yourself feel good lol.. im sure everyone knows your leet :D

anyway to get back on topic, if enemy actions were client side maybe the issue of latency would go away, i have no idea if SE have considered this and im not a developer obviously but it seems more realistic than what the OP is talking about..

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Originally Posted by fusional

are people really still having problems with ifrit? and are people still calling the moogle fight unwinnable?

lol idgi

for one, people have been having no problems with farming ifrit since a week after implementation. if you're having problems still, you're doing it wrong. people have been kind enough to give detailed strategies all over the internets. pay attention, stop sucking.

yes, server lag sucks. but it's a dead horse that's been beaten absolutely to death and there likely isn't any fix coming for the current game client. lag and animation lock should be gone in 2.0. waiting for that blows, i agree- but this is what we have to work with in the meantime, and if other people are working with it just fine... well.

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The attacks were designed to be dodgable if you run outside before it explodes (makes sense that you don't get hit if you are not in it right?). But instead of giving you 3 seconds to run out , you get 1 second. This would have been fine if it was designed so that you had to run out in 1 second - the eruptions explode 1 second after you see them. People would accept that they are not good enough instead of blaming it on the game.The post above you is an example of the frustration caused by this - on their screen they are safe, but not really. I don't think this is intentional.

If this thread was titled "server lag sucks" or "ifrit fight stupid and unfair" , then yes it would be a topic that been beaten to death. The main subject is about this workaround - Ifrit is just an example. Perhaps this thread should have gone in some technical part of the forum but there isn't one.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

anyway to get back on topic, if enemy actions were client side maybe the issue of latency would go away, i have no idea if SE have considered this and im not a developer obviously but it seems more realistic than what the OP is talking about..

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I'm certain that they have thought about it, but they chose not to. This goes back to every action in the game requiring to be okayed by the server which would include enemies.

And yeah it definitely about the the average party member. Not everyone is bluegarter or something like that where they exceed what is required by design to win. I would be happy if I could form a party consisting of 8 of myself.

i think.. the real issue isnt latency or ping.. rather that, SE designed a fight that emphasises the problems.. IE- having to dodge,

hindsight is a wonderfull thing but if SE would have known that latency would cause the problems people are describing then maybe they would have designed the fight differently... IE- not having to dodge

of course they could account for this by increaseing the time of plumes/eruptions as someone has suggested.. i dont know why they havent done this, it would be better to make it easy for people with low pings to dodge rather than having people feel cheated by the games mechanics.

BUT, there is more to it than that, if i use a weapon skill and then ifrit uses plume/eruption soon AFTER, then i am highly likely to get hit (so called animation lock), this is a seperate issue from latency, the effect of which is people dont want to do any actions... in my oppinion its a poor mechanic that leaves the player feeling cheated.

i like difficulty in a game, but not difficulty that leaves a bad taste or makes me feel like the game is cheating me.

lets hope things are better in 2.0 but that is a LONG way off yet...