Everyone enjoying those lovely DPS queues? At least they've normalized a bit....sorta....well at least there are other things to do....maybe....hopefully....
Anyway, while sitting around during those lengthier queues, I got bored and came up with this concept: a perpetually desired role (tank) with a personal favorite theme of shapeshifting, made with the same ORMOA system I've used for every job concept I've made.
As with all the other job concepts, there's lots of text and there won't be any TL;DR version, so those of you who do take the time to read it, 1) thank you, and 2) grab a bite or something since some bits are substantially longer than the rest. Also like the other times, each section is in spoiler text for reading convenience.
Without further ado, I give you the Sorcerer.
Origin
The Origin refers to the story components of the job within the game in the forms of background lore and the story told through the job questline. This is effectively the job's reason to exist within the world of the game, and without this element, there would be no point to its inception. The "short" story presented here provides a possible means of establishing Sorcerer into storylines already established into the game.
The Hunt for “The Sharlayan Monster”
The story starts with a Wood Wailer in Gridania speaking of concerning reports regarding an unusual monster sighted in various locations throughout the Central Shroud and that the Warrior of Light's assistance in investigating the matter would be greatly appreciated, starting with speaking to residents of Bentbranch Meadows for more information.
After talking to a handful of villagers, the player receives what sound more like rumors surrounding this creature: “I heard it was nearly three yalms tall and feasts the largest creatures in the wood”, “I recall hearing from a friend about an experiment in Sharlayan gone horribly wrong”, statements along these lines. The last person spoken to though, in addition to another would-be rumor, also mentions that one of the residents has yet to return from their daily hunting expedition, requesting the aid of the Warrior of Light to find them.
Heading northwest of Bentbranch Meadows, the missing hunter is found surrounded by a pack of monsters. When the player defeats the monsters and speaks with the hunter, they warn that more are coming. A cutscene would then follow showing more of the same monsters encroaching on the hunter and the Warrior of Light only to be interrupted by an unusual sound followed by a yeti charging in, knocking some of the monsters aside and making quick work of what ones were unable to flee. A moment after this, a puff of smoke goes off around the yeti as it disappears, revealing an oddly robed figure who pauses, briefly panics, transforms into a spriggan and hastily scampers toward the Standing Corses.
Once the Warrior of Light enters the cave in the Standing Corses and starts searching, a young man's voice is heard: “Are....are you here to kill me? Like all the others?” The Warrior of Light shakes their head (maybe some lip flapping would be involved), and the robed figure steps out toward a more lit area of the cave, removing their hood to reveal themselves as a adolescent male hyur. The young man introduces himself as Lanrich Seward, a student of sorcery, which according to him is “the art of embodying great beasts” that was recently deemed forbidden in his homeland of Sharlayan. Lanrich also goes on to explain the reasons as to why he is in Gridania, including sorcery necessities, sanctuary as an exile and also to search for a tome written by his grandsire said to contain advanced knowledge of sorcery. As soon as the player agrees to help, Lanrich gives the Warrior of Light a soul crystal he claims to be his grandsire's and a chest of secondhand gear that could help in the search.
Research, Train, Research....
Throughout the starting quests, Lanrich teaches the art of shifting and how “in order to become the creature, you must first know the creature”. In addition, the end of each new quest would give a clue as to the whereabouts of the elusive tome Lanrich is looking for.
The end of the starting questline would lead to the finding of the tome, albeit in a heavily guarded area.
The Bestiary of Ranimus Seward
What would be considered the “current” questline for Sorcerer would involve protecting both Lanrich and the tome from Sharlayan envoys attempting to make a claim on bounties for Lanrich as a traitor to his homeland and the tome for property stolen from the nation of Sharlayan.
The story would also involve excerpts from the tome, ranging from the zoological research endeavors of Lanrich's grandsire to his perspective on sorcery, why he believed it should be banned from practice in Sharlayan, where it should be practiced, why it should still be practiced and why some creatures should not have their forms assumed by sorcery.
Painting on the Wall
Any future questlines would delve into the origins of sorcery and archaic forms, most of which being unknown even to Lanrich.
Role
The role of Sorcerer will be a tank because 1) of course we need a new one, and 2) this role seemed like the best excuse for a shapeshifter that could have a wider variety of forms without making it too overly complicated.
Mechanics
The goal here is to provide a simpler overview of how this job works than going straight to the Abilities section and saying “what the &#@% is he on about?”. Here are some of the basic features.
True Caster Tank
Oh yeah, this isn't some tin can with magic tricks. This is the real deal. An actual spellcaster--cloth and all--dealing exclusively magic damage and taking all those hits just like any other tank.
”But won't it be super squishy because it's not in heavy armor like those other tanks?”
No it won't Captain Whinypants, because this job will have both the gear and the skills needed to not just be as tough as every other tank, but to feel as tough as every other tank too.
Instinct
Ever wonder how an evasion tank would work in a game while being balanced? By making it only look like it's evading, and the Instinct buff would do just that.
The goal of this ability is to use periodic shielding at the expense of MP to help in the compensation for wearing lighter armor to tank with. This would allow for a sort of mechanical illusion of an evasion tank while making it easy to balance as well as being less of a burden on healers having panic attacks after seeing not a lot of damage and then one or two quick damage spikes that would happen with healing a real evasion tank.
The numbers listed for the ability are placeholders for now. I didn't feel like doing too much more math on those, but mostly just wanted something to give an idea as to how it would work.
The Resolve and Fury Gauges
So with every job now having their own shiny new job gauge, this job would be no different. For Sorcerer, its fancy UI toys would be the Resolve and Fury Gauges: a pair of generic animal paw prints, with the Resolve Gauge on the left and the Fury Gauge on the right.
When the Sorcerer performs a weapon combo, one of these paw prints will light up depending on which combo was used. When the Sorcerer performs their enmity combo, the Resolve Gauge on the left will turn yellow and marked as “Level 1”, and when they perform their damage combo, the Fury Gauge will turn red and marked as “Level 1”. Each time afterward that a combo is used, its corresponding paw print on the Beast Gauge will get bigger, up to a maximum size at “Level 2” at 52 and “Level 3” at 62.
Beast Gauges are used for Shift spells, which is explained below. Just keep reading, you won't miss it.
Shifting
Sorcerer will receive three combat-oriented “Shift” spells: Resolve Shift, Fury Shift and Wild Shift. Casting either Resolve Shift or Fury Shift will deplete its respective gauge and transform the Sorcerer into a monster for a brief period of time, with the type of monster dependent on the level of the gauge used upon using casting the corresponding Shift spell. Wild Shift will consume both gauges and its effects are determined the lowest of the two gauges.
Unlike transformation effects from previous content (i.e. Palace of the Dead), Sorcerer transformations are temporary buffs and do not replace any of your hotbars or abilities, so normal weaponskills and abilities can be used, and Beast Gauge levels can still be accumulated while shifted.
With that being said, no Shift spell can be cast while under the effect of a transformation effect, and all combat-oriented Shift spells will have cast times--don't worry, they'll be just short enough to cover for a wrong button.
The Forms
So the forms I have selected are more or less spitballed to give an idea as to what kind of form should be at what transformation levels. Many of these forms would probably be (some would definitely be) smaller than the counterparts they are inspired by for mechanical purposes, and a lore-based reason would also be provided in the job story.
The only three rules I had for picking beast forms were nothing humanoid (i.e. gigas, moogles or other beast tribes), no plant creatures (this would be explained in the job story) and no dinosaurs or dragons (which would also be explained in the job story).
Outfitting
Outfitting is simply the gear and core stat preference. Due to the um....”nature” of this job, unless tank accessories are converted back to their pre-4.05 state for a more universal solution to tank threat, a new accessory type would be needed. Vitality with Intelligence rather than Strength as a sub stat (most likely dubbed “Warding” gear) would be required.
For armor, we'd have three options:
1) The “current gear” option: Use of Casting gear with a starting trait increasing Vitality, Defense and Magic Defense to compensate for the stat difference between it and Fending gear.
2) The “new gear” option: Use of the new accessory type to create a new armor type that would accommodate for a spellcaster tank. To keep things easier (at least for me), this is the option I'll go with for now.
3) The “not-that-caster-esque” option: Use of Striking gear with a starting trait increasing Vitality, Defense and Magic Defense to compensate for the stat difference between it and Fending gear. This would put Strength as the main power stat, allowing the use of Fending accessories and otherwise providing the most minimal development effort at the expense of going against the "caster tank" theme and probably some irritated Monk and Samurai players upset over yet another job rolling on their gear.
Any relic armor associated with the job would be more on the wild side ( /badpun), having a greater amount of furs adorned with various types of animal claws and teeth.
The weapon of choice for the Sorcerer is the beast soul: a glowing, fist-sized orb that floats between the character's hands when drawn. When sheathed, it would just look like a normal glass orb at the character's hip, either by itself or in some sort of satchel. When the Sorcerer is under any Shift effect, the orb will not be present.
Relic weapons for Sorcerer would most likely be named after various mythical beasts.
Abilities
First off, neither the abilities nor their values are set in stone. This list of abilities is to mainly provide some idea as to the basic combat functions of Sorcerer and getting an idea of how it would fight. Unlike the other job concepts I've posted on the forums, this is a full list of traits and abilities, all listed in order of level gained up to the current level cap of 70 with descriptions and extra comments added as needed.
Actions
1) Press Strike (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast, 60 TP)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 140.
(Beast soul launched forward toward the target and back into the caster's hands. While in a Shifted form, this would look like a headbutt.)
4) Natural Ire (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast, 60 TP)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Combo Action: Press Strike
Combo Potency: 200
(Beast soul swung in an diagonal upward arc. In a Shifted form, this would be a diagonal upward arc with either claws, horn, tusk, etc.)
6) Roar (Spell, 5y radius, instant, 2.5s recast, 11% base MP)
Deals unaspected damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 110.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
(The caster emotes a roaring motion with a spell effect (and maybe even sound effect) of the bull roar. This animation would not change for Shifted forms.)
10) Spirit Tear (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recaset, 60 TP)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Press Strike
Combo Potency: 210
Combo Bonus Effect: Restores MP
(Beast soul swung horizontally, briefly creating a white claw mark in front of the caster. Mechanically, this would restore 12% of base MP. In Shifted forms, this would be a horizontal slash with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)
15) Ghost Claw (Spell, 15y range, instant, 2.5s recause, 5% base MP)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
(Beast soul thrown at the target, briefly creating a slash mark. While shifted, this would be a similar animation for animals with claws or rearing the head up for animals without claws.)
18) Scouting Shift (Ability, instant, 5s recast)
Transforms the caster into a Scouting Form, increasing movement speed. This ability is canceled upon entering combat.
Duration: 30s
(So the plan for this would be a Spriggan, but it could be any small, less threatening animal-like monster.)
26) Seething Anger (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
Combo Action: Natural Ire
Combo Potency: 250
Combo Bonus Effect: Increases Resolve level by 1
(Beast soul swung upward, looping around the caster to strike the target twice. If used in a combo, the attack would briefly leave a minute amount of smoke. For Shifted forms, this would be an upward strike with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)
30) Aggression (Ability, instant, 10s recast, 18% of base MP)
Increases maximum HP by 10% and enmity generated. Reduces damage taken by 10% and damage dealt by 20%. Lasts until cancelled.
(The caster stamps their foot, cracking the ground beneath them. While in this stance, the Resolve and Fury gauges would appear steaming.)
30) Resolve Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast)
Consumes current Resolve level to transform the caster into a resilient monster based on the Resolve level consumed.
Level 1: Scarab
Level 2: Crab
Level 3: Mammoth
(The caster gains a yellow aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)
35) Gift of the Wendigo (Ability, instant, 80s recast)
All attacks restore MP and heal the caster for 10% of all damage dealt.
Duration: 20s
(A blue aura would briefly emanate from the caster's hands and beast soul. Mechanically, each attack would restore 5% of base MP. In Shifted form, the aura would appear from the animal's claws, horns, tusks, etc.)
38) Revenant Slam (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Spirit Tear
Combo Potency: 300
Combo Bonus Effect: Increases Fury level by 1
(Beast soul swung downward. For Shifted forms, this would be a downward strike with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)
40) Fury Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast)
Consumes current Fury level to transform the caster into a powerful monster based on the Fury level consumed.
Level 1 : Crow
Level 2: Tiger
Level 3: Predator
(The caster gains a reddish aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)
42) Instinct (Ability, instant, 5s recast)
Periodically create a shield absorbing 5% of maximum HP. This ability drains MP while active. Lasts until canceled.
(A pair of white beast eyes open up over the caster's head before disappearing. Mechanically, this would be 5% damage absorption at the expense of 17.5% of base MP drained every three seconds.)
45) Collapse (Ability, instant, 90s recast)
Inflicts damage with a potency of 150. Damage is doubled while under the effect of a Shift spell.
(A downward strike with the entire upper body regardless of form.)
46) Shell Shield (Ability, instant, 180s recast)
Reduces all damage taken by 30%.
(The caster quickly crouches down as a glowing green tortoise shell forms around them and disappears when the caster gets up immediately afterward.)
50) Survival of the Fittest (Ability, instant, 360s recast)
Restores all HP and MP.
(The caster roars, arms outstretched with the beast soul over the caster's head. For non-bipedal Shifted forms, the animal would rear up on its hind legs instead.)
52) Stampede (Ability, instant, 15y range, 60s recast)
Charge 15y forward, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 200 to all enemies in the path.
(The caster moves foward, leaving a trail of dust in the path to show the area of effect.)
54) Swiping Blows (Ability, instant, 45s recast)
All weaponskills strike an additional target for 30% damage.
Duration: 10s
(A pair of outward slash marks would appear in front of the caster.)
56) Deft Counter (Ability, instant, 3y range, 5s duration, 60s recast)
Evade the next physical attack. If the attacker is nearby, damage is dealt to them with a potency of 150.
(The caster's outline becomes hazy for a second. If the attacker is in melee range,
the caster lurches left and strikes to their right regardless of form.)
58) Revitalize (Spell, instant, 30s recast, 25% of base MP)
Restores the caster's HP over time.
Regen Potency: 300
Duration: 12s
(The caster visibly takes a deep breath, quickly shaking their head. This animation would be the same for all forms.)
60) Adaptation (Ability, instant, 180s recast)
Increase damage dealt by 3% and reduce damage taken by 3%. Each time the caster deals damage, damage dealt is increased by an additional 3% up to a maximum of 15%. Each time the caster takes damage, damage taken is reduced by an additional 3% up to a maximum of 15%.
Duration: 20s
(The caster briefly rears back regardless of form as it gains a faint green aura, which lasts for the duration of the ability.)
62) Stomp Smash (Weaponskill, 10y range, 10y radius, instant, 20s recast)
Inflicts damage to all enemies in a cone in front of the caster with a potency of 350. Can only be used under the effect of Resolve Shift or Wild Shift and removes the effect. Shares a recast timer with Beatdown.
(The caster leaps up a bit and slams hard onto the ground, briefly leaving cracks in the ground in front of the caster and smoke around the caster as they exit their shifted form. The reason why it shares a cooldown with Beatdown is that it would be the easiest means of combating a possible rotation glitch during Wild Shift.)
64) Beatdown (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 20s recast)
Inflicts damage with a potency of 450. Can only be used under the effect of Fury Shift or Wild Shift and removes the effect. Shares a recast timer with Stomp Smash.
(The caster repeatedly strikes downward with the last hit creating a shockwave and smoke as the caster exits their shifted form. Like partially stated, the reason why this shares a cooldown with Stomp Smash is that it would be the easiest means of combating a possible rotation glitch during Wild Shift.)
68) Savagery (Ability, instant, 90s recast)
Increases Resolve and Fury levels to 3.
(The caster appears to tense up regardless of form as fanged maw appears in front of them and opens up before disappearing.)
70) Wild Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 120s recast)
Consumes Resolve and Fury levels to transform the caster into a dangerous monster based on the lowest of the two levels consumed.
Level 1: Ape
Level 2: Yeti
Level 3: Behemoth
(The caster gains an orange aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)
Resolve Shift: Scarab
Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge Level of 1. Reduces damage taken by 5%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(This would look just like any other beetle in the game and around the same size as well.)
Fury Shift: Crow
Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 1. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(So I couldn't think of any better name for it, but the visual goal would be a black version of the Bi Fang birds in Yanxia that would be around the height of an average Miqo'te.)
Resolve Shift: Crab
Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge Level of 2. Reduces damage taken by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(This would look just like any of the red crabs south of Costa del Sol, but around the size of the adamantoise mount, if not slightly smaller.)
Fury Shift: Tiger
Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 2. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(Go find a tiger model. That's pretty much what it'll look like.)
Resolve Shift: Mammoth
Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge of 3. Reduces damage taken by 10% and increases maximum HP by 10%, restoring the amount of health increased. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(This might probably be a baby mammoth, and would be no taller than the tallest male Au'ra.)
Fury Shift: Predator
Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 3. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. Chance to critically strike increased by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(As tempting as it was to call it "Weasel Form", it felt better to give it a name that more suitably matched how threatening it would be. This would be the same model as the Doman Weasel or Gulo Gulo, and would be roughly the same size or smaller than the current models.)
Wild Shift: Ape
Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 1. Reduces damage taken by 5% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(As odd as it'd seem to have a Level 1 Wild Shift for a cooldown-based shift, it still felt necessary to have it as a failsafe. Think of it and the Level 2 Wild Shift like the Hyoton of shifts: there's not really much reason to use it, but they're there just in case.
As for looks, it'll be just like any gorilla model about the size of a Roegadyn.)
Wild Shift: Yeti
Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 2. Reduces damage taken by 10% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(Same thing with the Hyoton analogy. This would look like any other Yeti model about a head above the tallest male Au'ra or Elezen.)
Wild Shift: Behemoth
Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 3. Reduces damage taken by 10% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. Increase chance to critically strike by 10% and maximum HP by 10%, restoring the amount of health increased. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
Duration: 20s
(I'm not gonna lie, even I'm still on the fence about this one, but I still wanted this Level 3 Wild Shift to be something legendary, something worth shifting into. For the size perspective, it would definitely be smaller than the Behemoth mount with a goal of having its hitbox size being slightly smaller than that of Demi-bahamut. Also because of its oblong size, its rear end might stick out of that hitbox a bit, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal.)
Traits
20) Enhanced Vitality
Increase vitality by 8.
40) Enhanced Vitality II
Increase vitality by 16.
52) Enhanced Shifting
Increase the maximum level for Resolve and Fury to 2.
60) Enhanced Vitality III
Increase vitality by 24.
62) Enhanced Shifting II
Increase the maximum level for Resolve and Fury to 3.
66) Enhanced Swiping Blows
Swiping Blows now hits a third target for 30% of the damage dealt to the original target.
LIMIT BREAK – Protection of the Wild
Cast visual: The Sorcerer channels a powerful shift as all party members are surrounded by glowing, translucent tortoise shells.
End visual: The Sorcerer briefly shifts into a massive Adamantoise and creates a shell-like barricade before shifting back to their previous form.
How a Shapeshifter Could Work in FFXIV
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07-27-2017, 02:56 PMKazrahHow a Shapeshifter Could Work in FFXIV
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07-27-2017, 03:28 PMCapriana
I am happy for you and your creativity. Its nice to be this excited about something.
But please for the LOVE of GOD. No freaking shapeshifter in FFXIV. JUST NO! STOP!
I liked your bluemage, your dancer or whatever but god shapeshifter, JUST NO! ESPECIALLY AS A TANK. HATE MAGE TANKS. HATE is not even a strong word here. -
07-27-2017, 03:37 PMKazrahThanks for the compliments, but why so opposed to those two themes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capriana
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07-27-2017, 05:16 PMTankHunter678I hear shapeshifter and I think druid to be honest. Sorcery and the title of Sorcerer is more along the lines of Black Mage, White Mage, and Red Mage, and maybe dealing with voidsent rather then anything in the realm of shapeshifting like a druid in touch with nature and the inner beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
As for mage tanks, in general its a conflict of themes. Mages are always known to be thin brittle robe wearers, the polar opposite of tanks which are known for being bulky tough armor wearers. Sorcerer especially invokes the robe wearing bookish type that is not physically fit for the rigors tanking requires. -
07-27-2017, 05:45 PMkikix12
Mages are not always known for being brittle. Quite the opposite. There are many stories where they leave typical "tanks" in the dust. It's just that for some reason, most games ignore those stories.
Who makes use of barriers, knights or mages?! What's stronger, a very much destructible metal armor or a potentially indestructible magical barrier?!
Look at the prime RPG game, Dungeons and Dragons. Are mages squishy there themselves?! Yes. Except clerics which are almost as tanky as warriors, and even tankier than them when you factor in their healing. But what about mages?! They are squishy, but as levels go, they gain access to force kind of spells that are virtually indestructible (only other mages with only limited few spells can destroy force). Only a caster can stop a dragons breath from turning the party into a fried chicken substitute. That's why mages had to be held back by limited casts of their spells in 3.X and lower.
Look at Magi manga, where mages are surrounded by "Borg", a kind of forcefield, just because they are mages, making an adept tougher than your veteran warrior. The titular Magi are outright impossible to defeat for normal warriors.
Look at Harry Potter, a very liked story, where the casters throw barriers to stop attacks that should have killed any normal human.
And Gandalf fighting against Balrog (or Balrok?! well, one of these)? Could Gimli or Aragorn stop him even for a second? Fighting in a war on the front lines? Saruman and Sauron both were magical entities as well, and Sauron could not be defeated without destroying the one ring, which itself was completely indestructible outside of a very specific, single volcano right at the very middle of Saurons territory.
If you look at fiction, there are PLENTY examples of tough mages. Mages that cover their bodies with earth forming a tough, regenerating armor. Mages in bubbles of hardened water (and fun fact, at high enough pressure water is harder than any concrete, metal or even diamond). Mages in spheres of forcefields.
In non-game fiction, mages are most often shown as being able to withstand a lot more beating than non-mages. So your statement is entirely incorrect. There is absolutely zero conflict of themes. -
07-27-2017, 05:56 PMTankHunter678In general Magic Knights, Paladins/Templar, etc are the ones depicted as the merging of the durable melee fighter and caster types. Lacking in the potential strength of both sides unless they specialize. Like Paladins do as anti-undead/demon wielding holy magic in addition to their blessed equipment for dealing with undead/demons.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
Also a big flaw in the ones you bring up is that the setting needs to have no forms of anti-magic in order for the mages to surpass physical warrior types. Saruman for instance would be helpless against a warrior outfitted in anti-magic gear outside of trying to levitate objects to throw at the guy, if he lived through figuring that out.
Any setting where anti-magic is a regular and common thing, especially for policing mages? The mages are brittle and have to pick their fights carefully lest they get crushed by their more physical oriented enemies.
There is also the fact that when magic is in the setting mage superiority over physical opponents only really works as long as the physical opponent lacks enchantments. A fire mage trying to take on a warrior decked out in anti-fire gear is going to get crushed easily becaue that warrior can face tank a dragon's breath attack without need of a barrier. Which is also typically how dragons die in many fantasy stories. -
07-27-2017, 06:05 PMSylvina
It's true that a powerful mage can be defeated by a sword or axe wielding warrior. but that only means they're on equal footing.
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07-27-2017, 06:56 PMkikix12Again, you are talking about GAMING. I said clearly that game developers tend to do it like this (but not always). But in other kind of fiction, be it novels, be it manga, american comic books (Dr. Strange is a good example here), movies...this is far from that. The question is why are game developers doing it this way?! Because they are copy-cats. When first Idle games came out and proved to be successful, everyone and their mother started developing Idle games. Same with MMO's. Developers look at what was successful and reskin it. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
You know that this is an absolute joke of an argument, right?! Tell me, what is anti-magic?! It's magic...So yeah, you need a mage to defeat a mage. How does that put the fighters in any better light?! And besides, I've almost never met a story that even used anti-magic freely. Though there were those examples. And you know what?! Those mages whose magic was beaten still did sometimes come on top. It's very obvious in the likes of Fairy Tail where about half of the mages are combat specialists and dragon slayers in particular are shown as superior melee fight combatants. But even in Harry Potter, there were anti-magic spells if I recall. And there still were mages that lost despite knowing them, cause the other side could use it too or just managed to outwit them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
Ironically, "anti-magic" gear is also magical. And funnily enough, let's use Dungeons and Dragons as example again. You could make that gear using perpetual anti-magic field around a piece of armor. And how that ends?! A lucky Mordenkainen's Disjunction and that gear is nothing more than scrap metal. Because anti-magic is not almighty and doesn't fully affect certain spells. It doesn't affect already-cast force either, so that force barrier?! Yes. If it was there before the anti-magic field was cast, it will still be there and will still prevent the anti-magic warrior from doing a thing. I use D&D as an example heavily because it is what many RPG's were inspired by for a long time, and now, many RPG's are inspired by those RPG's. The "glass cannon" mage is theoretically born from that as well (as I said, when you take away their spells, mages ARE as tough as glass...meaning not at all). But the developers completely ignored the many defensive capabilities that mages had in a pen and paper setting of D&D.
Oh, also, there is no anti-magic in Final Fantasy. Remember what we are even talking about here.
Any setting where anti-magic is not a regular and common thing?! The non-mages are brittle and have to be careful who they pick a fight with. See what I did there?! You can make whatever setting you please. What's the problem of making a setting where in the presence of a mage all non-mages are turned into weaklings unable to lift a cup full of water?! Nothing. What's the problem of making a setting where MAGES lose their magic in presence of a non-mage?! Nothing (I recall an anime where a certain person lacking magic in a magical world was also fully immune to all magic as a result). But how does that affect the theme conflict?! Not at all. Because no matter what setting you do, there will be many others that will make the exact opposite, and their fiction is no less valuable than yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
What are you talking about?! Anti-fire gear IS an anti-fire barrier, effectively. And that warrior needs a mage/cleric/priest/whatever to cast it/enchant the gear. Effectively, mages can pass their defensive attributes to others, but physical guys cannot. MAGES are the source of those defenses, those enchantments, so it is MAGES defenses. What exactly stops the mages from doing the enchanment on their own garbs?! For example an enchantment that pushes away any metal that approaches?!Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
You are trying to give validity to your claims by making very specific situations, but you are forgetting that those very specific situations are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about mages viability as tanks. Are there examples of tanking mages?! Countless ones. There's nothing that can change that.
I know we are talking about magic and fiction all that, but let's look at real life for a bit here. You have two guys fighting in a swimming pool. One have a sword and another have technology as a magic-substitute. A nice, directional sound generator that creates a lot of loud noises. While the guy with a sword is going to be hard-pressed to do much with it due to the pressure of water making his attacks suck, the directional sound generator will turn his brain into mush. Take the fight outside, and that sound generator, commonly called "a speaker", will at best be a pain in the ass that can blow his eardrums, at worst a source of very pleasant music. It will have zero effect on his sword and his ability to attack with it though, and the "mage" will be dead, no questions asked. Now, arm the mage with a Faraday cage connected to a high voltage, and it's another story. The sword-master will die by trying to attack him out of water, but the mage will be killed by his own weapon if he'll get IN water. This change of potential based on the environment is the crucial point here. In pen and paper, you can adapt to the situation and that allows the concept to balance itself. In books, comics and the like the maker makes fixed constraints, so the adaptability is entirely based on what he wants to make. In a digital game?! Once it's set, it cannot be changed. That's why it is important to balance things thoroughly. Just so you know, there were examples of "battle mages" that did not suck at either magic or fighting in final fantasy past. Some were born from the customization of Final Fantasy Tactics, others were innate to specific classes (blue mage in tactics is pretty defensively viable if you ask me). In Final Fantasy VII everyone could be a decent mage and decent fighter, even though some were better for one or the other. In Final Fantasy VIII, the boundary was almost non-existent.
And how is it in Final Fantasy XIV?! The "theme" is just three roles. Tanks, healers and DPS. All tanks are tanky, all healers are somewhat resistant but have increased survivability thanks to self-healing ability and all DPS are somewhat resistant either magically or physically, but only Red Mage have significantly increases sustainability due to self-healing. Yes. A "mage" is the tankiest of DPS, just because he can spam a heal to make up for being hit...There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that stops a mage-tank. Heck. The nature of MMO's makes bosses, even magical bosses, one heck of a tough nut to crack, so you have "tanky mages" since day one of V1.0. Just not playable. The setting very much allows designated tank mages. -
07-27-2017, 07:15 PMChiramu
It's a good idea, but you could take ideas from WoW Druid for this as well.
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07-27-2017, 07:30 PMTankHunter678And if we look at FFXIV all casters are squishy unless they are hybridized with knights, like Paladin and Dark Knight who both have very limited magical capabilities and wear heavy armor. If we look at other FF games all dedicated casters are squishy, and even in the customizable versions all casters are squishy or speccing a character out to be a caster makes them more squishy unless hybridized to give up a sizable chunk on the caster side. Even in dungeons and dragons for a caster type to be durable they have to give up a lot on the caster side to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
And the ones shown to have any decent magic barriers main story wise in FFXIV are white mages, and just look at what happened to Y'shtola when some extra force was applied. Her shield was ripped in half and she was sent to the hospital for the 4.0 main story. Gameplay wise just look at how often WHM, AST, and SCH shields get punctured.
And by technicality dark knight is the "mage" tank. Its also considered the worst tank in the game outside of boss fights against enemies that use magic at max level.
I wish square would just remove that 1000 character limit already. -
07-27-2017, 07:48 PMKazrahFunny, because when I think of a Druid, I think of the Celtic druids that served as one of the main influences behind White Mages as well as some of their sacrificial rituals that may have inspired some elements of Black Mage in FFXIV. Now when I think of a Sorcerer, I think of this painting. One of the many detrimental things WoW has done in terms of history and culture is skew the meaning of the word "druid", and your statement serves as a remarkable example of that. Your comment on Sorcerers, on the other hand, is a bit more understandable since Sorcery covers a wide variety of abilities (including transformation).Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
As for the "conflict of themes" bit, much like the reference to druid, is yet another perception drawn from a stereotype, and if the druid you refer to is in fact the druid of WoW (a spellcaster that could be a tank), that only makes it worse.
Actually, I was trying REALLY hard not to because not everything has to be like WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
My original post was 26,363 characters. How do you think I feel?Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
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07-27-2017, 08:03 PMkikix12I just told you. Blue Mages have comparable survivability to Paladins and Soldiers, and few other "tanking" classes, in Final Fantasy Tactics advance. And you don't need to "spec" them either. Their innate stat boosts are like that. And in Final Fantasy there is no such thing as dedicated mage to begin with. Everyone is an equal mage unless you grow them differently. And a tanky mage suffers no more than a tanky physical. You have survivability, attack OR a balance of the two. Whether the attack is physical or magical doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
And this shows that you completely ignored most of what I wrote, only to make your own, little, nice setting that "proves" your point. I'm not talking about multi-classing. Mages have lowest HP, yes. Mages tend to be given low Vitality, yes. Arcane mages (and there are non-arcane mages, Druid and Cleric are the basic ones) suffer as mages from trying to put on heavy armor, yes (they need to spend quite a few extra traits in order to get to equal standing in that respect). But they have unmatched defensive spells. SPELLS. Their casting in no way suffers from taking them. It is part of them. There is, literally, no better defense than what can be used by a caster in 3.X. Nothing. Null. Nada. Mages are powerful offensively and defensively in D&D. If you fail to see that fact, then you simply "filter" it out cause it doesn't fit your bill. They are so powerful that their sustainability had to be severely impaired by spell slots so that they wreck enemies in one fight, but are all but spent later on. And they need to choose defensive or offensive spells for the slots they pick (Sorcerers had to make that choice for spells learned in addition).Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
...White Mage...White Mage. Mage. Yep, that's relevant here...Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
And what happened to Y'Shtola...is relevant how?! Now you're saying that a tank can solo him without a healer?! Of course not. Zenos Yae Galvus in story was shown to tear through Y'Shtola's barrier, but he was also shown to wreck the Warrior of Light just as easily at multiple times. Including tank Warriors of Light. Your point is?! Stronger beats weaker, simple as that. It just proves that magic in FFXIV is not almighty or superior to physical abilities. It's balanced out, and whichever you pursue, you're going to be able to cope with the enemies by overpowering or outsmarting them all the same.
And gameplay-wise their shields being punctured...now, this is hilarious. Go ahead, play a tank. Go to a boss and say "hey, I'm a tank, so you can't scratch me!"...And die five seconds later. OF COURSE the shields are being punctured. It's a GAME! We're not talking about bringing an invincible mage tank here!!!
What nonsense. Dark Knight is not the "mage" tank technically, thematically or lore-wise at all. He is a mage-tank mechanically, since he have spell skills. Paladin is more of a mage tank in any way, shape or form. He have actual cast times, he have targeted spell healing and his lore is actually showing it as a spell-casting knight. And he was always considered the best at survivability (and now considered the best overall). Dark Knights are shown to use darkness from within, which is just "spells" in mechanics for simplicities sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
Dark Knight was called "mage tank" because it was a class with the most skills to tank mage ENEMIES. And because outside of lore, people call everything either a warrior, mage or healer, so the distinctive nature of his "spells" didn't matter, just that they are mechanically spells.
Well, at least you can bypass it by editing. There is no limit to characters at that point. Though yes, the lone existence of it is horrid forum design. We can't even preview the posts if they are over the limit...Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
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07-27-2017, 08:06 PMTankHunter678The WoW druid bear tank never felt like a true tank to me, then again most of my experience with them was chasing after them as they mulched through everything faster then I could keep up like a steamroller of death only slowed down by bosses due to them having more HP then typical mobs. Also them relying on pure bulk and evasion granted by their armor to survive. They just happened to be the most tanky thing Night Elves had back in WC3 due to said sheer HP bulk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
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07-27-2017, 08:24 PMKazrahBy that logic, WAR isn't a true tank--wait a minute....I see what you did there....Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
At the end of the day though, you still have to ask yourself "is it holding mobs like a tank, taking hits like tank, and griping and moaning at the DPS like a tank?"--okay, maybe not that last one as much, but if it's doing the other two, then it's still a tank regardless of whatever armor it's rocking.
RIP Haurchefant.....Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
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07-27-2017, 09:07 PMShippuu
The itemization alone makes this job problematic. Your solution of them simply adding a new type of gear because it's "easiest for you" is actually the hardest for them. It pollutes the loot pools unnecessarily for a single job for zero reason except that you want them to wear robes. Your other solution to have them wear dps gear, misses the itemization issues of sub stats showing you lack the foresight to see those major complications especially now that we have tank and dps specific sub stats that are only found natively on their respective role's gear. This creates a balancing nightmare that isn't easily solved without straight up ignoring sub stats which is a big part of this game's gear treadmill.
On top of that, the concept of a tank that deals purely magic damage is another problem. Outside or being much harder to balance damage wise with the other tanks due to inherent weaker magic resistance in most enemies, it also creates problems in content where enemies or bosses reflect or are immune to magic damage. You now have a tank that takes extra damage in fights like leviathan extreme, or that cannot tank some bosses such as the one in void ark depending on which one because immune to magic.
This is just trying to be different for the sake of being different for pretty much no reason. It may be appealing to people who like casters, but is a concept that generally isn't desired for the community who plays tanks. Combined with the incompatibility of gear and other issues, this would be a less desireable tank for anyone to play. Why gear just one tank when you can gear 3? There's many reasons the tanks all share gear and future ones will continue to do so as well. -
07-27-2017, 10:17 PMClawbriar
This reads a lot like Guardian Druid.
We should get Outlaw Rogue instead. -
07-27-2017, 11:02 PMAriaFairchild
I propose WHM to have tank stance, and melee skills to their arsenal, using their staff to bitch slap people around. Their tank stance can boost their physical/magical defence up to like 300% or something, and raise their parry rate to a minimum 50%, and it should only be turned on/off while out of combat. Oh and please add stealth, group-wide stealth, and a button to enter stealth mid-combat to nope the heck outta there when everyone in the group begins to die. TYVM.
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07-27-2017, 11:31 PMKazrahBy that loot pool logic, we shouldn't have DRG. Or NIN. Or any melee in Heavensward since each one of them had exclusive gear, so that's not really an excuse. As for an option to use DPS gear, have a starting trait put in that increases Vitality and defenses while increasing Tenacity by an amount equal to Direct Hit gained from gear and adjust potencies to compensate for the increased damage caused by dealing magic damage. Other features can be balanced passively, so it's not really that much of a nightmare for balancing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
As for a tank dealing magic damage, we now already have two of those, which tells me that not only would mechanics revolving around opposing magic damage not be as big of a thing, but devs would probably know how to implement them in such a way that that sort of mechanic would not apply to any job in a tank role and could potentially retroactively adjust what fights have these mechanics accordingly should there be enough demand for it. Of course if devs happen to be as inept as you seem to imply them to be (which I definitely don't), that's why I included the third option of Striking gear, have a trait that readjusts stats accordingly, and even have them deal physical damage if necessary.
With the whole "being different" thing, look at SAM. Everyone was expecting it to be just like the armored tank of FFXI, but Yoshi decided to have SAM as something different, and despite the whining and moaning at first, people enjoy it now. Yoshi has even reinforced this by bringing up wanting to add jobs unique to the Final Fantasy series because he wants the game to be different. Sure, there might be more tanks that use Fending gear like all the others, but there could just as easily be a tank that breaks that rule, much like a DPS that can heal.
Lastly, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you speak on behalf of all tanks (which I still can't stop laughing at the thought of it). If what you say is true and more caster players would favor it than tank players, then guess what? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!! What better way to make tanking more inclusive than to bring in a tank that more DPS players would prefer than tank players? Keep your Warriors. Keep your other tin cans. I'll stick to being different. -
07-28-2017, 02:23 AMAlphaFox
I admit, the idea of a mage tank I love. I feel it is not something I have ever really seen done as its usually the tin can variety. I do admit however when I hear shapeshifter, I think more along the lines of say Terra and Espers. The gauge being a bit different in that it starts at 100 and while in Esper form it counts down, quickly recharging out of combat but also able to be built up while in human form.
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07-28-2017, 02:33 AMeschaton
Just wanted to say a new tank class which does things this way might become very popular if only because it makes people want to try it out. And even more if it actually turns out on the field as a new fun alternative! Great idea, love it! Fresh idea's are always needed!
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07-28-2017, 02:46 AMkikix12
Loot pool logic is something that developers can easily "fix". The first though that comes to mind as just an example is giving guaranteed chest upon defeat of the boss that will give one piece of gear for whatever class you open it as. Something like the chests with Red Mage and Samurai gears, except only one piece and based on the current class, not for a fixed one.
After that, add one drop that is randomly chosen for people to need/greed/pass on. And voila. Whether there is one class or a hundred, each with their own gear, they'll get at least a piece.
Another example is trading. Have X pieces for other classes?! Exchange them for a piece from the set of a class of your choice. And suddenly, all those "failed" runs where all you got was gear useless for you will net you that one piece you wanted.
This is a problem in the players and developers heads (manifested as a result). It's not a problem in reality. I have no idea why people still, after all the MMO's out there, after all the solutions (some of them having part in this very game!) already found, still think there is such a problem as loot pool. -
07-28-2017, 02:56 AMBrightshadow
Honestly the shapeshifter of this series is a Blue Mage. If Square wants to add a shapeshifter they should just add Blue Mage, which is basically a monster tanking since they use monster abilities.
As for gear, there is no reason why they can't just use Intelligence gear. All they need is a trait that converts Intellect to VIT. As for your shapeshifter I have an idea.
You know how in FFIX garnet would sometimes get like critical hit when summoning and have the full summon animation instead of a half summon animation. Perhaps blue magic could work similar. When using spells normal they would just use monster animation, but when Crit or an ability is used the spirit of the enemy would appear in back of the BLU to use the ability or something like that. Which would feel like a shapeshifter. -
07-28-2017, 03:19 AMKazrahAlthough that's not quite really a shapeshifter, I do like that approach to BLU. Thing to bear in mind though is that BLU only used monster abilities, never becoming the monster. Just because a CNJ and a spriggan both use Stone, that doesn't make that CNJ a spriggan. Same case with BLU, which was one of the reasons why I made this concept as a tank rather than a BLU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightshadow
Also, thank you all for the feedback. Keep it coming! -
07-28-2017, 03:19 AMShurrikhan
While I like the concept generally, this seems more like an Esper with just faintly differentiated buff forms / reskins. I don't understand why you would take all the potential of corporeal shift-forms and then shoehorn them into a caster.
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07-28-2017, 03:55 AMShippuuExcept that's not how it works and you know it. DPS jobs having their own individual gear worked at 2.0's launch partially because it was a holdover from 1.0's days. Those jobs have their own tier of gear because they must and are staples of either FF games, or Fantasy RPGs. Ninja follows the same way, as claimed by yoshida was a rogue class staple that he felt was necessary to any successful fantasy game/setting. There's also the likelihood of a longer term plan that intends for NIN to share gear with a future job (Dancer comes to mind) so that it remaining it's own set may simply be temporary, we don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
Most of the jobs added since then could have easily had their own tier of gear, samurai, red mage, etc. But they don't because from a developmental standpoint it's a bad idea. They have enough problems creating the art assets alone as they re-use the designs for every set of gear and that's with a tremendous amount of gear sharing. It's more work for the devs and more of a pain for the players as the loot pool would become ever more polluted.
It absolutely is not that easy. You can't just handwave it away saying a passive would cover everything because these stats aren't always static uncreases. That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity. The skills have different stat weights and it could seriously cause other issues such as when it comes to melding. From a coding perspective it's preposterous to demand such extra hidden systems to be developed for a single job for literally no reason when they can simply be developed to wear appropriate gear.Quote:
As for an option to use DPS gear, have a starting trait put in that increases Vitality and defenses while increasing Tenacity by an amount equal to Direct Hit gained from gear and adjust potencies to compensate for the increased damage caused by dealing magic damage.* Other features can be balanced passively, so it's not really that much of a nightmare for balancing.
This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.
There's a huge difference between a job that deals SOME magic damage, and a job that deals ONLY magic damage. DRK is already at a disadvantage in the situations I mentioned, but they're still capable of fulfilling their role adequately because their main form of damage and enmity is not hindered.Quote:
As for a tank dealing magic damage, we now already have two of those,
Glad you pointed out we have 2 magic themed tanks already, showing the redundancy of creating yet another one.
And there it is, the need for special exceptions. At that point, the tank isn't dealing magic damage then, they're dealing special kind of damage that only they can do, at which point there is zero reason for them to not simply do the same type of damage the existing tanks do. Special damage and exceptions makes for harder balancing which they already clearly have problems with.Quote:
which tells me that not only would mechanics revolving around opposing magic damage not be as big of a thing, but devs would probably know how to implement them in such a way that that sort of mechanic would not apply to any job in a tank role and could potentially retroactively adjust what fights have these mechanics accordingly should there be enough demand for it.
You can be optimistic all you want but they're still humans who have very busy work schedules. Their choices with tank balancing for 4.0 have been incredibly questionable and there is no denying it.Quote:
Of course if devs happen to be as inept as you seem to imply them to be (which I definitely don't),
Oh look, now who's speaking on the behalf of a demographic? Irony.Quote:
With the whole "being different" thing, look at SAM. Everyone was expecting it to be just like the armored tank of FFXI, but Yoshi decided to have SAM as something different, and despite the whining and moaning at first, people enjoy it now.*
As we established, no, it is not something that is easy and comes with many, many, many complications. At least the way you're trying to put forward.Quote:
but there could just as easily be a tank that breaks that rule, much like a DPS that can heal.
Dude, listen to what you're saying. The demographics just aren't there. Tank player retention is arguably more important than trying to lure new players into the role. You'd be taking a massive gamble that simply isn't worth it. Only if the entire caster population switched to it would it then be worth it, or even half, but that's not going to happen. Realistically you can't force people to play roles they don't like. Even then, the larger dps demographic is still melee dps and even your mage tank still has melee combos. There's more to caster players than just wanting to do magic damage and wearing a robe, it's the playstyle of having actual cast bars which doesn't work all that well for a tank and is already covered by paladin.Quote:
If what you say is true and more caster players would favor it than tank players, then guess what?
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07-28-2017, 04:10 AMShurrikhanPre-yoshida 1.x actually had far more gear overlap than 2.0. Perhaps we could trim a fair bit of inventory bloat by moving back towards that, in fact, especially if paired with the below [job-dependent gear stats]...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Complicated? What? It's an tag/index, the stats attached to which could be made dependent on the equipping class, e.g. item12312a, item12312b. You can adjust how it works for the tank equipping it without touching how it works for the DPS equipping it whatsoever. This is done frequently in other MMOs.Quote:
That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity.
This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.
...Granted, just because every other MMO is capable of, say, swimming without needing a brief zone transition on every dive/surface, isn't to say that XIV's devs are likewise capable, but this too is in a few too many MMOs to call "impossible" (you know, like having glamours in PvP was theoretically "impossible" until a whole two patches later...).
Just my nit-pick, as I actually think that the benefits of such a system would already extend well beyond a single new job's use. Agreed on all other points. -
07-28-2017, 04:15 AMShippuuIt's not a problem of players or the devs saying there isn't a solution, it's the practicality of of developing it for a game that comes out with such regular content updates. Resources and time are finite and from a development standpoint there is little logic in developing an entirely new system as well as increasing the workload of the asset team, itemization team, etc. When a simpler solution is on hand by simply creating jobs that continue to share the existing gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
It's a matter of choosing the path of least resistance which is absolutely necessary in developing this game.
Later Edit, rather than make another post:
This is exactly the problem when people start talking how things would be so easy, they show they have no idea what they're on about. You are aware that Int gear already has Vitality on it, right? And that converting all the Int into Vitality would mean that tank has more HP than the others by quite a bit, on top of that, they now have no primary DPS stat to go off of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightshadow
There are plenty of reasons a tank cannot easily use Intelligence gear, many of which I've already listed.
It's complicated in the sense of itemization, and on the end users (the players), having to consider equipment that has different stats depending on which job is wearing it. It creates a massive gearing issue between the jobs sharing it, you're still in essence creating 2 different pieces of equipment except with the added development of creating a system to easily display these stats. It still doesn't broach the idea of how it's generally a bad idea for different roles to have to compete with each other for loot. Part of a perk of playing a tank or healer is just that, knowing in most content you are relatively uncontested for drops. This works as a positive incentive for players to play tanks/healers, and taking that away is a step backwards towards getting more people to play the role(s).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Please do point out where I ever said it was impossible, because I absolutely never did.Quote:
but this too is in a few too many MMOs to call "impossible"
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07-28-2017, 08:51 AMZarabeth
I don't think shapeshifters really fit into the lore. However a caster tank would be cool. Also you are super creative! You should be working for a gaming company.
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07-28-2017, 03:03 PMKazrahThanks! I did have another concept for a caster tank, but Green Mage has a bit of difficulty differentiating itself thematically with what we have for White Mage in FFXIV. I am curious though as to why you think a shapeshifter wouldn't fit into the lore, especially since lore can usually be curbed so some concepts could be implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarabeth
You may not have said it, but the negative attitude you've displayed in every single post you've put into this thread certainly screams it in volumes. Just makes me glad that it's not the whiny pessimists who make this game better than its competitors, but the optimists who can take fascinating--sometimes even different ideas--and put them into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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07-28-2017, 05:49 PMZarabethI suppose you're right, they could make one, I just don't think shapeshifter when I think FF. In ffxi blue mages could tank some. I'd love to see a blue mage tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
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07-28-2017, 06:34 PMKazrahI have a feel a lot of people have that mentality on shapeshifters in Final Fantasy. My guess is because they didn't play Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarabeth
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...al-fantasy.jpg
This is the Morpher class from that game, and the inspiration behind my concept for Sorcerer. It would fight by assuming a stance of a monster and then actually transforming into that monster when performing an attack from that monster, and it had access to every ability that monster could use. The only thing I wasn't a fan of about it was its outfit since it just felt far too generic.
Now Blue Mage was in that game too, but like most Blue Mages in Final Fantasy's history, it wore lighter outfits and was about as tanky as any other average melee class, being able to take just enough hits to learn a spell without dying. Between that, the lack of tanking abilities in its average arsenal throughout the whole series and the fact that less than half of all the types of Blue Mages in every Final Fantasy game ever made had absolutely no choice but to get hit by an ability to learn it (pretty sure even BLU of FFXI could still see a spell to learn it as well) was why I usually made my Blue Mage concepts as melee DPS rather than as tanks. Now that's not to say Blue Mage couldn't be made as a tank--with how Red Mage was brought in, I think anything's on the table now--but there may be some reservations when looking at job traditions throughout Final Fantasy history. -
07-28-2017, 08:37 PMZarabethYou're correct, at least in my case. I have not played FF Tactics Advanced. That morpher is adorable. In FFXI Blue Mages had to learn their spells from monsters which is why I never liked the class and didn't play it. Since I was a RDM I did end up helping my BLU friends get their spells though. I hated it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
I still think a BLU as a tank job could be done fairly easily and the shifter idea is growing on me. -
07-28-2017, 09:20 PMShippuuThat's not how it works buddy, but ok. Just because you don't like that someone poked glaring holes in your idea that you thought you had really thought out doesn't mean you get to put words in their mouth that they never said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
Well then I guess I'm glad the clueless dreamers with no sense of realism or understanding of the reality of the situations have zero say on anything being added to the game.Quote:
Just makes me glad that it's not the whiny pessimists who make this game better than its competitors, but the optimists who can take fascinating--sometimes even different ideas--and put them into the game.
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07-28-2017, 10:32 PMKazrahOkay then, let's see you come with something. I'll wait until then to take your criticisms seriously from now on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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07-28-2017, 11:47 PMShippuuI don't need to jump through any hoops. You're incapable of actually taking realistic criticism or looking at things from the bigger picture from a developmental standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
Instead of adressing the entirely valid and logical criticisms you would instead prefer to make such immature responses. You clearly aren't interested in having your ideas challenged in the slightest likely because of your own ego, so we're done here. -
07-29-2017, 12:53 AMKazrahI'll take criticism, and have no problem admitting that yes, there are flaws just like every other job in the game. That's why I bring my concepts to these forums: to get feedback. Not just the positive remarks, but the constructive criticisms that can show not just flaws in the concept, but how to cover them make the concept better overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
What I won't take though is the sheer arrogance you've been bringing into this thread while offering absolutely nothing positive or productive to the concept. From nearly every poster in this thread and the other job threads I've done, I've learned something I can take away from to apply to future job concepts, especially for Blue Mage. Instead of saying something like "this doesn't really work, how about trying it this way" or "maybe if it was done with something different, that would help", you've just been nothing but condescending, and I have no intention of dealing with it.