The new Spear card vs the Arrow...which one?

Just wondering between the new Spear card and the Arrow, which one brings more dps for parties?

10%(5%) crit rates for 20s vs. 10%(5%) speed for 30s

(probably the effect of either of them is too small, but I still wonder what the correct answer would be...Can anyone help?)

I would say: depends on the DPS you have in the party.

Got BRD or any other jobs that live for Crits, then Spear will help them out.
Got a MNK that lives off getting skills off fast to keep up greased lightning, then Arrow.

Because the 5% when spread is such a small number, you want to boost the things that the DPS are stacking. If the group is full of SkillSpeed stackers (that are not at the limit) then Arrow, if everyone is stacking Crit then Spear it up.

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Originally Posted by Maku

I Because the 5% when spread is such a small number, you want to boost the things that the DPS are stacking. If the group is full of SkillSpeed stackers (that are not at the limit) then Spear, if everyone is stacking Crit then Arrow it up.

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Looks like you flip flopped there. If people stack crit you want to increase their chance of critting with the spear. If people stack sps/sks you should arrow them.

Its the same reason we give highest dps the balance. The bonus is higher when you give it to someone whos base is already high.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Typo Correction

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Thanks for pointing that out. ^^ Changed.

Arrow. - No contest. The 20 sec duration really dampens spear's value. If not for that, the 2 might be more comparable.

Thanks for the answers!

Aye I wish SE could adjust the Spear to 30 seconds someday.

Do not use arrow on any class with higher speed, as its effect lessens the higher the speed. So NIN, MNK, SAM don't need it. Spear is good for BRD in Mage's Ballad and MNK in general for their crit chakra returns. Otherwise just use them on whatever. Spear has a better damage buff than arrow. That 10% speed up isn't actually as useful as it sounds except for BLM, as it only adds like 1 additional GCD over the 30 seconds and getting a crit is much stronger.

To be honest I hate arrow in general because it speeds up your rotation to the point you can't double weave your skills properly so in the end you're wasting the extra speed. BRD's LOVE crit. If you give them the Spear, they will love you.

Melee DPS generally hate the arrow, as it causes them to burn through their TP faster, but they can also suck it up if you get it for AoE because it is still a solid dps gain.

Everybody loves crit from the spear, doesn't matter who, crit is bad for nobody.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Do not use arrow on any class with higher speed, as its effect lessens the higher the speed.

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Actually, they benefit more from it than other jobs. I'm on mobile now, otherwise I'd give you a more elaborate answer

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Actually, they benefit more from it than other jobs. I'm on mobile now, otherwise I'd give you a more elaborate answer

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I'm on phone too but let me see if I can give an example.

Say you do 1damage/1second. After 100s you would do 100 damage or 100/100 = 1 = 100%.

If you increase your speed by 20% you'd end up doing 100 damage in 80 second or 100/80 = 1.25 = 25% damage.

If you get 30% faster you'd do 100 damage in 70 seconds or 100/70 = 1.42 = 42% more damage.

So yeah, more speed = higher returns.

Damage isn't quite as straight forward though since there are certain factors not affected by attack speed but it gets the point across more speed = higher returns.

I tend to fodder arrow and just spear/balance. Mfw I'm doing it wrong.

Arrows hit the (royal) road so the Spears and Balances last longer :P

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm on phone too but let me see if I can give an example.

Say you do 1damage/1second. After 100s you would do 100 damage or 100/100 = 1 = 100%.

If you increase your speed by 20% you'd end up doing 100 damage in 80 second or 100/80 = 1.25 = 25% damage.

If you get 30% faster you'd do 100 damage in 70 seconds or 100/70 = 1.42 = 42% more damage.

So yeah, more speed = higher returns.

Damage isn't quite as straight forward though since there are certain factors not affected by attack speed but it gets the point across more speed = higher returns.

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I'm amazed you managed to fit all that within thousand characters. I was thinking of something more in line with ingame numbers. So pardon me if I seemingly reword/translate your example.

On an unmodified target the GCD time is 2.5 seconds. 10% from The Arrow would reduce that with 0.25 seconds to 2.25 seconds/GCD. The Arrow is based on base cast time and GCD. So regardless of any innate form of haste the job possesses, The Arrow will always reduce the GCD time by 0.25 seconds. Let's take monk for example. They get 15% attack speed increase naturally through Greased Lightning. Without other modifiers, their GCD time is 2.125 seconds. Reduce that by 0.25 seconds and they have a GCD of 1.875 seconds. This translates into 11.8% faster attacks. Not convinced? Let's bloat the numbers with a 600 seconds encounter:
600 seconds encounter with 2.500 seconds GCD has 240 actions
600 seconds encounter with 2.250 seconds GCD (10% haste) has 266 actions or 26 more actions compared to the base
600 seconds encounter with 2.125 seconds GCD (15% haste) as a monk has 282 actions or 42 more actions
600 seconds encounter with 1.875 seconds GCD (25% haste) as a monk with The Arrow has 320 actions or 80 more actions. Which would have been 65 more actions if stacking speed had no increased effect

I like throwing a +Arrow on monks because I'm an arse

If you want to standardize Spear and Arrow to compare them then its possible to compare them each over 30 seconds since its difficult otherwise. Since Spear is only 20 s, then 5% benefit is over 20s with 0% benefit over the remaining 10 s. This means:

Spear gives 3.3% crit over 30 seconds.
Arrow gives 5% SS over 30 seconds.

So its 3.3%crit vs 5% skillspeed which depend on stat weights. Most (if not all melee) are weighted DH > CRIT > DET > SS as far as I know. BLM still weights SS highest and BRD is CRIT first although, Ariyalas site does not seem to be updated. I'm not sure about the others.

3.3% Crit will outweigh 5% SS for most classes aside from BLM. My bias has been to aoe a Spear over an Arrow. So, if I have a pocket Arrow and then sleeve a 50%AoE and draw gives me a Spear, I will opt to hold the Arrow and use the Spear on my party. We have DRG, NIN, BLM and BRD so I just hold the arrow to use on BLM after Spear wears off.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

If you want to standardize Spear and Arrow to compare them then its possible to compare them each over 30 seconds since its difficult otherwise. Since Spear is only 20 s, then 5% benefit is over 20s with 0% benefit over the remaining 10 s. This means:

Spear gives 3.3% crit over 30 seconds.
Arrow gives 5% SS over 30 seconds.

So its 3.3%crit vs 5% skillspeed which depend on stat weights. Most (if not all melee) are weighted DH > CRIT > DET > SS as far as I know. BLM still weights SS highest and BRD is CRIT first although, Ariyalas site does not seem to be updated. I'm not sure about the others.

3.3% Crit will outweigh 5% SS for most classes aside from BLM. My bias has been to aoe a Spear over an Arrow. So, if I have a pocket Arrow and then sleeve a 50%AoE and draw gives me a Spear, I will opt to hold the Arrow and use the Spear on my party. We have DRG, NIN, BLM and BRD so I just hold the arrow to use on BLM after Spear wears off.

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You can't really compare them like that, though. Unlike attack speed, crit is an odd mistress.

An extra 10% chance to crit has more value on someone with low critical hit chance. Someone with a 10% chance to crit gets twice as much value out of someone who has a 20% chance to crit:
100 attacks, 10% chance to crit would be 10 crits. An extra 10% would add in another 10 crits (+100% number of crit hits)
100 attacks, 20% chance to crit would be 20 crits. An extra 10% would add in another 10 crits (+50% number of crit hits)

Attack speed, on the other hand, has increased value the more you stack it.

Of course, the duration is one thing and practical value is another. Considering the chance to draw and actually use a spear or arrow throughout the duration of an encounter doesn't dominate the cards you draw and use the effective gains from one or the other is hardly noticable

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You can't really compare them like that, though.

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You're describing diminishing returns which exists for both Crit and SS but to a different degree. SS is better when stacked to a point, but eventually has diminishing returns as well. The exact stat weights and soft/hard caps haven't been updated yet as far as I know.

The way I'm comparing them is exactly what you are saying. I'm saying its 3.3% Crit vs 5% SS when you control for duration. So for any given class/current gear stats, all you have to decide on is 3.3% crit better for me than 5% SS. For most classes it seems like the answer right now is yes.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

You're describing diminishing returns which exists for both Crit and SS but to a different degree. SS is better when stacked to a point, but eventually has diminishing returns as well. The exact stat weights and soft/hard caps haven't been updated yet as far as I know.

The way I'm comparing them is exactly what you are saying. I'm saying its 3.3% Crit vs 5% SS when you control for duration. So for any given class/current gear stats, all you have to decide on is 3.3% crit better for me than 5% SS. For most classes it seems like the answer right now is yes.

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I'm not talking about diminishing returns, though. Which doesn't seem to be a thing with (secondary) stats in Final Fantasy XIV anyway. And I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me/us with that second paragraph

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'm not talking about diminishing returns, though. Which doesn't seem to be a thing with (secondary) stats in Final Fantasy XIV anyway. And I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me/us with that second paragraph

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The more crit you have, the less each additional crit chance is worth to a point. If you have 100% chance to crit already, additional crit is worth nothing. That is literally diminishing returns. The second paragraph is just to provide an easy way of looking at Spear vs Arrow. Its 3.3% crit vs 5% SS and you can decide for yourself which one is better. Not sure how to word it any other way.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

snip

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That's not what you said initially, though. And diminishing returns would be if you get less attributes with more stats you stack.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

That's not what you said initially, though. And diminishing returns would be if you get less attributes with more stats you stack.

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I appreciate your persistence, but that is what I said initially.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

I appreciate your persistence, but that is what I said initially.

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Well, then feel free to bold out anything in your initial post that mentions:

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Originally Posted by Ilian

SS is better when stacked to a point, but eventually has diminishing returns as well.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

The more crit you have, the less each additional crit chance is worth to a point.

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I'll even make it easy for you and quote your original response:

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Originally Posted by Ilian

If you want to standardize Spear and Arrow to compare them then its possible to compare them each over 30 seconds since its difficult otherwise. Since Spear is only 20 s, then 5% benefit is over 20s with 0% benefit over the remaining 10 s. This means:

Spear gives 3.3% crit over 30 seconds.
Arrow gives 5% SS over 30 seconds.

So its 3.3%crit vs 5% skillspeed which depend on stat weights. Most (if not all melee) are weighted DH > CRIT > DET > SS as far as I know. BLM still weights SS highest and BRD is CRIT first although, Ariyalas site does not seem to be updated. I'm not sure about the others.

3.3% Crit will outweigh 5% SS for most classes aside from BLM. My bias has been to aoe a Spear over an Arrow. So, if I have a pocket Arrow and then sleeve a 50%AoE and draw gives me a Spear, I will opt to hold the Arrow and use the Spear on my party. We have DRG, NIN, BLM and BRD so I just hold the arrow to use on BLM after Spear wears off.

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Also, I'd like to reiterate that there is no such thing as diminishing returns in Final Fantasy XIV.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, then feel free to bold out anything in your initial post that mentions:



I'll even make it easy for you and quote your original response:


Also, I'd like to reiterate that there is no such thing as diminishing returns in Final Fantasy XIV.

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Yes you have made it easy. My original post says 3.3% crit vs 5% SS and its bolded as you posted which is the same point I've been making in every post. I'm not sure why you are arguing this point.

A stat that has less value the more you get (from your original post I'll remind you) is literally diminishing in its returns. Whether the typical use of the term applies here to crit or SS is semantics and is not worth debating.

I've been saying the same thing from the first post I made, why do you continue replying trying to refute that? I was just trying to provide a way to compare them easily given their different durations but my post is essentially the tool tip of the two cards.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

BRD's LOVE crit. If you give them the Spear, they will love you.

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This is true, I do love me some crit. But, I love it most when everyone's CDs are being used (DRG's Battle Liteny, SCH's Chain Stratagem, MNK's Brotherhood, my own Raging Strikes). Someone who likes math more than me would have to figure it out but... on a duty to duty basis, I'm probably not going to overwrite my current DoTs if I only have the Spear going and nothing else as I don't think (keyword there) that it'd be that great of a bonus to get the increase to crit but lose the Raging/Foe/Trick Attack damage of them. Not ever going to say "no" to free crit buff though.