Shinryu vs Deltascape

So... having finished Shinryu and Deltascape (all 4 bosses), I would have to ask this:

Why is Deltascape a heck of a lot easier than Shinryu, when Deltascape rewards a full set of 320 gear (though requiring a minimum of 7 weeks to get such), but yet Shinryu rewards nothing except for a quest clear and a gate to everything else in endgame?

That just seems.... strange to me.

Something with that many mechanics belonged at the end of the expansion, not at the beginning. You can easily compare Shinryu to Final Steps, in fact I think Shinryu is far harder with more plentiful instant-death mechanics and don't even get me started on the hilariously easy punching bag that is Thordan (the MSQ version obviously).

Now, I'm not calling for a nerf to Shinryu, though I do think that a few tweaks would make it a bit more palatable while maintaining its heart-pounding edge-of-your-seat action (such as, checkpoints in the various phases so you don't have to re-do the entire thing when you inevitably wipe in Phase #3).

I'm just wondering what is up with the out-of-whack difficulty progression. Are Kugane Castle and Temple of the Fist as easy/easier than Deltascape? I've yet to try those, I figured I would hurry and get Deltascape done before Tuesday as I saw it as being more important.

By the time people get to deltascape they should have a better grasp on how to play the game and how mechanics work. Also most of the players in deltascape at this point have atleast gotten a full set of verity gear for their class.

Shinryu is kind of like the test at the end of lessons. It throws a fair variety of mechanics at players which most players that played the game in ARR or HW are already familiar with. Add to it there are a lot of players going directly into the battle after ala mihgo that didn't take time to even do their lv 70 job quest they might be right at the min requirements for entry which can make it either harder if its the tanks or healers or just take a lot longer if its your DPS

About the only instant death mechanics I recall on shinryu was either falling off the platform or failing the Active time Event.

Anyway just think of Shinryu as being like that height check sign to get on a rollercoaster. Except in this case its to get to the current endgame content.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

By the time people get to deltascape they should have a better grasp on how to play the game and how mechanics work. Also most of the players in deltascape at this point have atleast gotten a full set of verity gear for their class.

Shinryu is kind of like the test at the end of lessons. It throws a fair variety of mechanics at players which most players that played the game in ARR or HW are already familiar with. Add to it there are a lot of players going directly into the battle after ala mihgo that didn't take time to even do their lv 70 job quest they might be right at the min requirements for entry which can make it either harder if its the tanks or healers or just take a lot longer if its your DPS

About the only instant death mechanics I recall on shinryu was either falling off the platform or failing the Active time Event.

Anyway just think of Shinryu as being like that height check sign to get on a rollercoaster. Except in this case its to get to the current endgame content.

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This. Every mechanic in Shinryuu has been seen in casual content before this point with perhaps the only exception being the water puddles and the fact that you're now all but forced to use sprint on cooldown. Otherwise it's all stuff the game has spent three expansions tirelessly beating into your skull and is quite simple once you accept that fact. It's also makes a huge case for forcing people to focus target who might not have bothered before, as Shinryu's telegraphs are no worse than any other boss. They're just less forgiving if you try to run through it blindly.

You only need 5 weeks to get a full set, not 7.

Shinryu: Put Sprint on hotbars. Do the well-indicated mechanics, all of which you've seen before.

Deltascape: At least has a couple newish mechanics.

When they see the amount of players not repeating Shinryu, that will tell the tale. No one I know repeats it and I am not the Lone ranger.

Story mode Omega introduced a few new mechanics each floor and held our hands gently through them since it's an introduction to the Omega saga. Shinryu was the final boss of 4.0. Their position in the narrative and what we expect from them in terms of difficulty is different. For Omega, it was showcasing the new mechanics people could expect to see in the Savage version while letting players of most skill levels get the story and some gear. Shinryu was the climax of the main story and he was bigger and badder than all the primals he swiped signature moves from- he needed to be harder BUT he also didn't do anything new so players could easily adapt if they kept their wits about them.

I expect that the last entry in Omega's story raids will be moderately challenging to PUG groups like A12 was. At least, I hope it will. I also hope the amount of qq about Shinryu doesn't deter SE from including challenging MSQ fights in the future. Save the truly difficult fights for EX/Savage, sure. But don't make the story quest fights face-roll easy either. If they're supposed to be epic fights against demi gods I want to really feel like I fought hard and WON.

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Originally Posted by Besame

When they see the amount of players not repeating Shinryu, that will tell the tale. No one I know repeats it and I am not the Lone ranger.

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You mean.....no one you know repeats content with no rewards? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I also hope the amount of qq about Shinryu doesn't deter SE from including challenging MSQ fights in the future. Save the truly difficult fights for EX/Savage, sure. But don't make the story quest fights face-roll easy either. If they're supposed to be epic fights against demi gods I want to really feel like I fought hard and WON.

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Honestly after the backlash that Final Steps received and the lack of any nerf to follow, I think Shinryu is well and truly safe at the moment. This isn't like 2.55 where they introduced a fight that was leagues more difficult than anything else the casual player had ever seen, requiring team work that most could barely muster on a good day like with the first Steps of Faith. Since that debacle the game has been steadily training it's player base to get better and better. Fights have more mechanics, enemies hit harder and are less forgiving of mistakes, there's now way more happening on the screen in any given fight than most dungeons you'd have found in ARR. And if not, I can guarantee those mechanics are less forgiving to compensate.
I'd be amazed if they nerfed it.

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Originally Posted by Tristann

You only need 5 weeks to get a full set, not 7.

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Is it? I must have mis-read the turn-in NPC, I thought I saw 7 items needed for weapons, not 5. Huh. Well, still. The point still applies.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Is it? I must have mis-read the turn-in NPC, I thought I saw 7 items needed for weapons, not 5. Huh. Well, still. The point still applies.

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I thought it was 7 too like in the past.

I thought it was 7 as well, huh.

When to it comes to the actual execution of the mechanics of Omega, I find Omega to be harder.
Shinryu I find to be easy to deal with mechanics.

But Omega is more forgiving if you fail mechanics.
And Shinryu is less forgiving.


Example, press a complex set of buttons, and only take half your HP in dmg if you fail.
or Press a single button, but die if you fail.

I think gear has a lot to do with it. Royal Menagerie is 290 and everyone is 290ish. Omega is 295 and everyone is 310ish.

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Originally Posted by Heliantheae

I think gear has a lot to do with it. Royal Menagerie is 290 and everyone is 290ish. Omega is 295 and everyone is 310ish.

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This is probably closer to the truth. Which is why Omega story mode seems easier

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Originally Posted by Besame

When they see the amount of players not repeating Shinryu, that will tell the tale. No one I know repeats it and I am not the Lone ranger.

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I mean... they already said they weren't nerfing it, just that they won't make content more difficult than it in the MSQ. Adding incentive adds repeatablitily, not nerfs.

Why is everyone even complaining about Shinryu being too hard? Why have we come to a point where things we can't absolutely steamroll like Cape Westwind are too hard?

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Originally Posted by LilLemay

Why is everyone even complaining about Shinryu being too hard? Why have we come to a point where things we can't absolutely steamroll like Cape Westwind are too hard?

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I'm pretty sure I expressed it in very clear terms in my OP that I was not asking for a Shinryu nerf, but more asking why something earlier in progression is harder than things that come after it in progression.

This was not a complaint about Shinryu's difficulty, but a mere observation that Shinryu is more difficult than the first 4 Omega Battles.

As to some of the other replies:

1). Shinryu has a lot of instant-death -- yes, falling off the platform is the only instant death, but yet there's several ways this can happen: Tidal Wave, Diamond Dust, that charge attack he does, and being on a square when it is broken by the tail. And then, the attack where he pounds the platform with his fist is pretty much instant-death for a 290 DPS or Heal (they usually die outright, or they have <1k left if they survive). A Death Sentence + Meteors can also be a 100%->0 death within 1-2 seconds.

2). Shinryu is a much longer fight, with 3 phases, especially if you end up with bad DPS. If you fail to kill the tail each time it comes out, that only makes the fight that much longer.

3). Shinryu has many more mechanics in the same fight, and is more complex than any of the Omega fights. Most of the Omega fights only have 4 or so mechanics while Shinryu has easily three times that.

4). Shinryu's stuff hurts a lot more than the Omega fights. You can eat mechanics in Omega if you've got a couple good healers pumping out AoE heals like nobody's business. You can't do that on Shinryu, however, not when a single mechanic can do 75% or more of your health in one shot.

5). Shinryu randomly attacks two people every 5-6 seconds as its auto-attack, and is quite fond of picking off people who just ate a mechanic they shouldn't have before healers can get them back up. None of the Omega bosses do this.

So yes, I would have to say that Shinryu is far harder than any of the first 4 Omega bosses. Again,t his is not a complaint to Shinryu's difficulty, nor am I asking for nerfs. I'm more confused by the weird progression, where you go from Easy to somewhat tough (Zenos) to "GAH!" that Shinryu is, and then you step into Omega v1 and it's "pfft, that's it?"

Omega v2 is "lol, this is a raid boss?"

Omega v3 is "huh, that was interesting but still easy."

Omega v4 is "eh. so-so."

Usually, progressions are... progression. Start off easy, gradually work your way up. Not "Easy->Mild->Hard->Easy->Mild".

I went into all these fights totally blind as a healer. I refuse to watch videos the first time I do something. That takes so much of the fun out.

Shinryu was rough but didn't cause me any extra stress or scary moments.

Deltascape had a few oh shit moments that made my heart skip a beat or two. Mainly the massive AoE unavoidably wind damage form the wyrm boss.

Either way, they are both cake and I beat them all on my first tries with PuG DutyFinder groups.

I've also gone in blind to every fight so far (except the EX primals, because I got around to those late and didn't want to hold everyone else in the group back), and Shinryu wasn't an issue for me. He was harder than each individual fight in deltascape, sure, but if you count that as one whole raid, rather than 4 raids, they were about the same tbh.

I cleared Shinryu after about 30-40m or so with a group that was also doing it blind. In deltascape I ran it about 15m after it was released so the whole group was also going in blind: 1st boss was no problem, 2nd boss had a decent deal of wipes (mostly while figuring out when to be floating/not, and how the tentacles worked), third boss has maybe 1 wipe, and the 4th boss had a decent chunk as well (figuring out the tank swap, and that his spells changed based on if he had void or not).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I mean... they already said they weren't nerfing it, just that they won't make content more difficult than it in the MSQ. Adding incentive adds repeatablitily, not nerfs.

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I mean...I could care less if they nerf it or not, I completed already.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Is it? I must have mis-read the turn-in NPC, I thought I saw 7 items needed for weapons, not 5. Huh. Well, still. The point still applies.

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I didn't count the weapon, because it wasn't available at all until the patch 4.05 hits. Let's be precise: 7 weeks for the weapon, 5 for all other stuff.

But this is the last boss, it should be harder.

I'm fine with the difficulty of Shinryu as it is, but what bothers me is the learning curve leading up to it. For the new or casual player base, there's very little before that prepares them for the number and density of mechanics.

I think the big thing about Shinryu is that none of the mechanics are new. It should be easier than it is, but many players are lazy or have been carried to this point. Try joining a mostly premade where the people actually know what their doing and you'll see how easy the fight gets.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

I think the big thing about Shinryu is that none of the mechanics are new. It should be easier than it is, but many players are lazy or have been carried to this point. Try joining a mostly premade where the people actually know what their doing and you'll see how easy the fight gets.

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The problem with this answer, though, is that there's enough mechanics that you can either forget, or perhaps Person A knew about a mechanic, but either forgot or RNG put him at a bad place to avoid it. Person A dies. Then, 5 seconds later on the next mechanic, Person B ends up in the same situation, he dies. Get 3-4 more deaths and it might as well be run over, ESPECIALLY if one of them is a healer or the MT.


Anybody can make mistakes, and Shinryu does not let you make very many mistakes until you're so far in the hole, the only thing you can do is desperately toss raises and Healer LB3s and you still won't make it in some cases. Once a healer goes down, everything goes to crap very fast.

Compare that to Omega's bosses, where most of them (except for Exdeath...) lack any sort of instant-kill mechanic, or at least getting insta-killed requires some seriously bad fail and even then, it's rare enough that the occasional death is not going to equal a wipe.

I mean, for crying out loud, I did the first 2 bosses without a single death, blind (having never read up on them or watched a video). I died on the 3rd boss as MT only because I didn't receive a heal quick enough and barely got clipped by an attack I was trying to sprint out of (bad RNG laying the AoE down in a very inconvenient spot), and I died once on Exdeath due to falling because again, I went in blind and didn't know about the knockback. Once I died to that, got back up, rest was easy. Didn't get hit for the rest of the fight as OT.

Compare that to Shinryu... wipe wipe wipe wipe wipe wipe. Some of Shinryu's choices of where to put AoEs are literally impossible to Sprint out of, one minor wrong step and you're dead, etc.

In Omega, you only meet people who got past Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Tristann

In Omega, you only meet people who got past Shinryu.

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Not talking about the people, I'm talking about the bosses and the mechanics themselves. There's not a single guaranteed instant death attack until Exdeath, lol.

Meanwhile, Shinryu's full of stuff that is guaranteed to kill you, such as falling off the platform, failing to stack on the stack attack, failing to help the tank eat Akh Morn, and the dozens of ways you can get pushed off a ledge or have the platform break from underneath you.

I'm glad they made Shinryu as unforgiving as they did, it just meant people were required to execute mechanics instead of, for the most part eating them. I think everything preceding Shinryu should've been a little more difficult to support the more casual (myself) player-base entering in the fight.

I also think that Omega should've been at least a little more difficult to give the casual base more a chance to grow naturally through story content. O1S should've been normal mode for crying out loud..

Plot twist: Shinryu is actually a double extreme savage boss. SE just didn't tell you because they wanted to test the limits of your power.