Please don't change Machinist core gameplay

I've seen some people advocating for a lower barrel stabilizer cooldown or suggesting they give us incentive to overheat often. I really pray that doesn't become the case. We just need some QoL buffs and maybe some minor potency buffs. Here's what I would love to see changed.

-Lower rook overload turret downtime from 30s to 15s
-Overheat damage boost from 10% to 25%
-Wildfire becoming AoE on exploding
-Give hotshot a small dot
-Flamethrower cooldown to 30s
-Perhaps GB auto equips upon cooldown. still not sure about that one.

We don't need much, just need hope from SE that they understand the current issues MCH have are not tied to our core gameplay but simply the fact that we don't do enough damage.

There's more wrong with MCH then damage...

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Originally Posted by Pence

There's more wrong with MCH then damage...

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Care to elaborate? I feel like they should have bard be the one with more support abilities and let MCH be damage focused.

From job guide.

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Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions.

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Bolded. This part bothers me the most because it fits BRD only, not MCH.

The only thing that MCH has is Dismantle and Hypercharge. Not looking at cross role because BRD has them too.
However, even melees have similar abilities to Hypercharge, they can provide TP and casters can transfer MP. NIN manipulates enmity.
My point is, most melees have utilities. MCH is not bringing anything extra like BRD does. So don't put them on par with BRD.

If they won't make MCH support then they should make them damage focused.

Here's the changes coming
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MCH will have their base damage increased
It'll be an overall potency increase
Heat Gauge will be made easier to maintain
Rook and Bishop OVERLOAD will have increase of potency of 400 to 800

Adding more to the above:

Hot Shot will change from 5% to 8%.
Heat will be slower to gain (Going to presume this is when heated only....surely SE isn't blind enough to make sub-50 gain slower)

I still advocate for it playing more akin to the Shadow Priest in WoW: Legion - in which Heat becomes a damage up that's activated, and can be maintained for longer by using stuff like Flamethrower & Heated Shots. The likelihood of that is slim, but really, coming from Legion to Stormblood, it's hard not to see a sliver of similarity between the two.

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

I still advocate for it playing more akin to the Shadow Priest in WoW: Legion - in which Heat becomes a damage up that's activated, and can be maintained for longer by using stuff like Flamethrower & Heated Shots. The likelihood of that is slim, but really, coming from Legion to Stormblood, it's hard not to see a sliver of similarity between the two.

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So if you finally do mess up and overheat, your lunchbox explodes and instantly kills you? :D And you can't be raised again until the fight is over?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

So if you finally do mess up and overheat, your lunchbox explodes and instantly kills you? :D And you can't be raised again until the fight is over?

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Yes, we definitely need Surrender to Madness

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

Yes, we definitely need Surrender to Madness

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I'm imagining a full SotM stack MCH becoming like some kind of bullet hell emulator where they just start firing everything, everywhere, while wildly waving their pistol around in the air yelling "USA USA". (If we want to respect the source material then I suppose they could just turn into a Gundam instead.)

MCH is fun but then they give them penalties like rng and penalty when you overheat...just too many penalties for just trying to damage.
Penalties are never fun. We can do deal with rng but penalties are never a fun idea.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Penalties are never fun. We can do deal with rng but penalties are never a fun idea.

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I'm actually a big fan of being penalized for making mistakes.

I find it lame that they are making it "easier". I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be competitive. The dps increase changes are questionable but will have to wait and see. I wish the damage increase would have focused more on wildfire and overheat mechanics because that is where the fun/satisfaction of the class is.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I wish the damage increase would have focused more on wildfire and overheat mechanics because that is where the fun/satisfaction of the class is.

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I don't find overheat fun nor satisfying truth be told. It just plain feels clunky. Wildfire at least feels organic because your cooldowns all align with its cooldown now. Overheat? You gotta clumsily work around it with flamethrower or trigger it naturally and THEN start setting up your cooldowns, thereby wasting lots of duration. And even if you do it perfectly, you just end up giving the Barrel Stabilizer a yearning stare, because even a perfect Overheat feels bad thanks to the required heat-up afterward >_>

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I don't find overheat fun nor satisfying truth be told. It just plain feels clunky. Wildfire at least feels organic because your cooldowns all align with its cooldown now. Overheat? You gotta clumsily work around it with flamethrower or trigger it naturally and THEN start setting up your cooldowns, thereby wasting lots of duration. And even if you do it perfectly, you just end up giving the Barrel Stabilizer a yearning stare, because even a perfect Overheat feels bad thanks to the required heat-up afterward >_>

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Well for me it only feels bad because what I get out of the overheat is not satisfying to line everything up right. If the damage was worth the work than it would be satisfying for me. Maybe its just me but I usually get satisfaction out of things that take work to pull off but pay out big when pulled off correctly.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I find it lame that they are making it "easier". I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be competitive. The dps increase changes are questionable but will have to wait and see. I wish the damage increase would have focused more on wildfire and overheat mechanics because that is where the fun/satisfaction of the class is.

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Pretty sure they're trying to tone down on those burst moments that were present in 3.x, especially when after going through that burst moment, MCH just kinda felt useless afterward. As for why they're making it easier, my guess is because they want more than a few dozen people playing the job compared to the thousands playing the other jobs.

I do agree though that it needs to be competitive though, since right now, MCH is about as competitive as a double-amputee in the long jump.

Gun mage makes a return please look forward to it.

Well I don't even think reducing the amount of heat gained and remove heat loss from reload makes it any easier. It is just going to force those of us who have learned to the rotation to relearn a new rotation for no reason without any real impact on difficulty...

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Maybe its just me but I usually get satisfaction out of things that take work to pull off but pay out big when pulled off correctly.

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I don't find it satisfying when the aftermath is just so... underwhelming.

Like, as Ninja, you also get those burst-y moments where you try to cram all your cooldowns into the Trick Attack window. And that is something I like with MCH as well and what Wildfire is good at. I gladly concur that this part is satisfying. But after you're done as Ninja, you're not locked out of Huton for 10 seconds and then get to slowly build it up again (or use Stabilizer). You simply continue with your normal rotation.

You don't suddenly get into the position where you technically really want to use your OGCDs (ammo in this case) to advance the combo or simply because it's off CD, but you also don't because that delays you getting back into the heated area and the minigame that comes with it. The entire heat-up phase feels bad and it comes automatically with every overheat that you use without Stabilizer ready, with 10 seconds lockout regardless. And that's what makes overheat feel bad in general (to me). It's not just a trick attack window, it's a trick attack window with a terrible follow-up attached.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I don't find it satisfying when the aftermath is just so... underwhelming.

Like, as Ninja, you also get those burst-y moments where you try to cram all your cooldowns into the Trick Attack window. And that is something I like with MCH as well and what Wildfire is good at. I gladly concur that this part is satisfying. But after you're done as Ninja, you're not locked out of Huton for 10 seconds and then get to slowly build it up again (or use Stabilizer). You simply continue with your normal rotation.

You don't suddenly get into the position where you technically really want to use your OGCDs (ammo in this case) to advance the combo or simply because it's off CD, but you also don't because that delays you getting back into the heated area and the minigame that comes with it. The entire heat-up phase feels bad and it comes automatically with every overheat that you use without Stabilizer ready, with 10 seconds lockout regardless. And that's what makes overheat feel bad in general (to me). It's not just a trick attack window, it's a trick attack window with a terrible follow-up attached.

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Yes it really sucks going into overheat without stabilizer ready but I don't think you should be going into overheat without stabilizer. I only overheat every other wildfire.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

But after you're done as Ninja, you're not locked out of Huton for 10 seconds and then get to slowly build it up again (or use Stabilizer). You simply continue with your normal rotation.

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MCH continue normal rotation after barrel falls off >.> The only changes in your button presses will be avoiding quick reload and that's only if your overheat was accidental without BS available. You still do 1-2-3 and the like during your no GB phase.

You don't want to overheat without BS.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'm actually a big fan of being penalized for making mistakes.

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That's what the instance itself is for. Shouldn't have to fight your own kit to do your job right.

I mean, wasn't that the whole point of all the job changes in Stormblood?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

That's what the instance itself is for. Shouldn't have to fight your own kit to do your job right.

I mean, wasn't that the whole point of all the job changes in Stormblood?

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I highly disagree with the sentiment of always doing good damage unless you "mess up" in which case it's still good but not that great. People make it sound like you're fighting your own kit, but MCH is just a kit of tools of ups and downs for your heat management and that's not fighting your own kit- that's decision making. Make the right choice or get zapped! It's exhilarating!

And the instance isn't the only thing trying to flub you up, if it was we'd only have 3 generic classes of tank healer and dps performing not much more than 1-2-3 instead of expanded upon ideas of kits, rotations, mechanics of their own that you try to fit into said instance.

What's the point of the heat gauge if the ONLY gameplay of the job is to stay between 50-100.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I highly disagree with the sentiment of always doing good damage unless you "mess up" in which case it's still good but not that great. People make it sound like you're fighting your own kit, but MCH is just a kit of tools of ups and downs for your heat management and that's not fighting your own kit- that's decision making. Make the right choice or get zapped! It's exhilarating!

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Purely a matter of personal preference. Any job can end up not dealing good damage, but that's largely a skill/effort thing. And lest we forget, it was always possible to mess up a Wildfire before. MCH was all about maximizing burst windows. What it didn't involve however was frequent stops and hesitation to use skills, lest you REALLY put yourself in a terrible position to do what you're meant to do. Bard for example has very little hesitation in their kit: If you got it, use it. Obviously use it at the right time, but IF you trip up, the mistake isn't hardly as punishing, recovery is much simpler, and the impact to your primary damage dealing is minimal. Same goes for RDM. This isn't me saying make MCH play like BRD or RDM, but if we're going to have a "risk/reward"-based kit, then it needs to actually be rewarding. And currently, it is not.

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Originally Posted by Kyuubee

What's the point of the heat gauge if the ONLY gameplay of the job is to stay between 50-100.

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It's not the only point of the heat gauge. If you're staying between 50-95 the whole fight then you're ignoring half of the mechanic. You overheat during burst windows.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

but if we're going to have a "risk/reward"-based kit, then it needs to actually be rewarding. And currently, it is not.

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I don't believe FF14 carries any risk/reward capabilities unless we're talking cards. There's hitting the wrong buttons- but that's not risky, that's just hitting the wrong buttons. An encounter doesn't change because a MCH was brought that actively goes against you unless sometimes.

As for if MCH is currently rewarding? Of course not- but that's because our numbers are lower than they should be, not because of our core gameplay. You could remove all heat gameplay with the current iteration of MCH and it still wouldn't be rewarding in that sense because the numbers are too low. The current system would prove to be very rewarding if the output was there to back it up.

Keeping up Blood of the Dragon: higher DPS. Losing it? Forced lv 50 rotations. In a high end fight, problematic if frequent.
Keeping up Enochian: higher DPS. Losing it? Forced lv. 50 rotations. In a high end fight, problematic if frequent.
DPS Stance for tanks: higher DPS. Not using it? Increased damage taken. In a high end fight, problematic if you stay in it and don't use cooldowns.
The old Cleric Stance: When Yoshi P himself says "I hate Cleric Stance", you know it's an issue. One that was fixed for that very reason.

Risk: making a mistake and/or not fully or properly utilizing said skills above.
Reward: higher damage dealt for properly utilizing said skills above.
My point stands.

For what burst? To push wildfire into a 500 potency attack? That's laughable when you consider the minute long cooldown. The overheat also isn't worth going into considering the MASSIVE potency damage loss. If it were, maybe we would see more than 100 parses that include machinist. The heat gauge as is, is literally a punishment device that does not reward good play but instead gates you from dealing normal damage. The incentive currently is that you either do it perfectly or your damage is going into the garbage.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

My point stands.

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All those examples are people hitting the wrong buttons to lose it/ plainly not using abilities or not using cooldowns.

You even flatly say in one example that it's just a tank not using cooldowns while in DPS stance.

That's not risk, that's hitting the wrong button- or rather no buttons.

The risk simply isn't there in predetermined encounters. The biggest risk I've seen for MCH this expansion so far is MCH getting the lightning lockdown on Susano during wildfire. That's about the closest thing to a point that gets.

So people are perfect and never make mistakes?

Well then, for actual air-breathing humans, one of the bigger differences currently is that IF you make a mistake as a MCH, your already low DPS completely bottoms out, and recovering from that only sets you further back. This includes elements of your kit that will work against each other in the process of doing so.

Let's paint an even better picture: Your party is trying to push DPS to eke out that last bit of percent to clear a fight. Barrel Stabilizer is on cooldown, Wildfire not available. Do you Overheat and try to push? Do you hold back and not take advantage of the damage increase? What happens IF it's not dead before that Overheat wears off? Sorry, no balance cards, you've got a WHM and SCH. No DRG for piercing. What do you do?

But hey, all players are perfect and never make mistakes. That's why they didn't have to change jobs to make them "simpler" this time around.

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Originally Posted by Kyuubee

For what burst? To push wildfire into a 500 potency attack? That's laughable when you consider the minute long cooldown. The overheat also isn't worth going into considering the MASSIVE potency damage loss. If it were, maybe we would see more than 100 parses that include machinist. The heat gauge as is, is literally a punishment device that does not reward good play but instead gates you from dealing normal damage. The incentive currently is that you either do it perfectly or your damage is going into the garbage.

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You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that the damage gain from doing it perfectly isn't worth it but if you aren't doing perfectly then you're doing garbage.

(You should be doing your darndest to maximize your damage to your capabilities anyways)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So people are perfect and never make mistakes?

Well then, for actual air-breathing humans, one of the bigger differences currently is that IF you make a mistake as a MCH, your already low DPS completely bottoms out, and recovering from that only sets you further back. This includes elements of your kit that will work against each other in the process of doing so.

But hey, all players are perfect and never make mistakes. That's why they didn't have to change jobs to make them "simpler" this time around.

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Let's be realistic here- and I'm not attacking you so no need to call me a robot or subhuman.

Naturally everyone messes up- but that's messing up. It wasn't a stray mechanic that took you out, it wasn't a random stun that happens sometimes and you need to realign yourself- it was YOU (Being the player).

There was no risk- just the player. And we already agree that MCH is low reward so I think we're fighting the same battle anyways so no need to be rude.

You're right. We ultimately want a better MCH. The difference is, my concern isn't the damage. My concern is the conflicts in the kit where they originally didn't exist. I have no issue playing the job as it currently is, even if/when I make a mistake. I have every issue with the amount of effort made to recover as a MCH vs other jobs that currently outperform it. SE themselves said they're reconsidering the concept of jobs that require greater effort dealing greater damage (a perfectly sensible concept, except when you suddenly look at MCH as the current big exception beside BRD, RDM, and SAM, which are all arguably easy to play and capable of high damage).

And if I came off as rude, it wasn't intended. Sarcastic, yes, but I agree there's no need to be rude. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

The high reward isn't there. Give MCH REALLY high damage for staying in the right. If MCH isn't supposed to be high damage then make the class simpler. You can't have low damage and complex at the same time, no one will use them.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

You don't want to overheat without BS.

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On that, we agree. I disagree however that the rotation doesn't change because Cooldown completely vanishes from it during the heat up phase (as would armor crush from a NIN that loses Huton) - and so does Quick Reload. On that note, I do take issue with ammo being a double edged sword in the heating phase in general. The design offers conflicting incentives (advance combo/extra damage vs faster heat up/extra damage) which is highly counterintuitive.

Plus, getting into Overheat for Wildfire is clunky - you want to load up before using Wildfire, but if you do, regular abilities don't generate anymore heat to get into overheat. You end up using an AoE OGCD on a single target to do so, only to instantly cancel it - truth be told, it doesn't even feel like that's intended usage of the skill, though it probably is. Either way, it's clunky.

I mean, yes, I personally work around it by simply never overheating when Stabilizer isn't ready. But it's just no fun to overheat at all, even when it is - it's something I just do because it's statistically a DPS gain, not something I want to do because it's fun and awesome. Wildfire is the high moment of MCH and bluntly, from an enjoyability perspective, Overheat offers nothing Wildfire doesn't offer already except a valley of drag afterwards. Which in turn makes the prior Wildfire you used it for less enjoyable.

That aside, I don't think Overheat is a very reasonable punishment for effing up. Doing so is pretty huge - You lose 10 seconds of 5% bonus damage from Gauss, 10 Seconds of around 13% bonus damage from the heated shots, the bonus damage from cooldown (which has a higher potency than your combo on average due to RNG) plus however long you need to get back into the heated area - with additional loss due to not using Quick Reload. And you get half of those punishments even if you have just delivered the most beautiful overheated Wildfire in the history of FFXIV. And that's just the numbers - The enjoyability issues that come with it are subjective. It might well be the most punishing job mechanic out there at the moment.

I don't like it and I like to think I give good reasons why I don't, even if I agree that some of them are rather subjective. And I repeat myself >_>

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Plus, getting into Overheat for Wildfire is clunky - you want to load up before using Wildfire, but if you do, regular abilities don't generate anymore heat to get into overheat.

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Expanding on the clunky comment: coming OFF of overheat is clunky AF. Mid-Heated Clean? RIP. Cancels your skill and you gotta try again.....

Meeh, wouldn't mind changes to the job. The turrent is currently just place and forget, since there is no syngergy with the rest of our job, and the only time you need to use overload is when a boss is vanishing.

Then it is Hot Shot which is also an skill that you just forget exists after using it once in the opening so this might as well have been incorperated into the new heat system.

Also wouldn't mind if we got the Quick Reload from pvp where it's quick reload that costs tp not our main rotation.