MCH (a mostly positive viewpoint )

Hello. I rarely start a thread on these forums but lurk most of the time so I will get right to the point. I read a ton of reddit and look at these forums sections and I see so much negative about mch.

Yes It needs some adjustments. I am really new to mch as someone that was turned off/ by the super hard/punishing 1 billion gcd/ogcd opener n rotation + cast bars.

I tried pretty hard to get it down but just wasn't able to do it but I was always in awe at the mch that COULD pull off everything in 3.0 onwards. With the rotation and opener being a bit easier/ no cast bar I tried mch again in 4.0 and it is FUN.(feels strange with no buffs in opener) (lvl 69) atm. I went against everyone in 4.0 that just tells me to go brd or go home.

I am not gonna speak for all the experienced mch or pretend I am one because I am not. I am willing to continue being interested and practice more with it.
I am positive SE will do some adjusting for it come 4.05.

TLDR: as someone new to mch while a lot of things may be bad there are some positives to mch that shouldn't just be ignored/general pop shouldn't act like mch isnt viable but adjust voice your opinion both POSITIVES and NEGATIVES

thank you.

if u enjoy MCH then keep playing MCH, i am pretty sure MCH will get good buff in the future.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

if u enjoy MCH then keep playing MCH, i am pretty sure MCH will get good buff in the future.

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People can be very short sighted with their "main" choices when it's purely influenced by their place in the meta. Buffs and nerfs happen as a natural MMO ebb and flow- people just seem to have it in their head that certain classes will always be god tier and others will always be low tier which seldom is the case.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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I'd be more inclined to agree with this if it weren't for the fact that SB decided to (again) change job identity a bit. Monk, for instance, was a sustained single target dps machine, but that now goes to SAM.
If you speak purely from a performance perspective, MNK is probably better off now that in HW, being very competitive in terms of efficiency.
But I can understand that someone who poured their passion into mastering a job with a certain identity might feel turned off that it suddenly changes. Especially if they loved both aesthetics and identity (or, worse, grew fond of the aesthetics due to the identity).
MCH lost utility, SMN lost aoe power, BLM lost single target power- in fact, most of the "happy people" seem to be from jobs that retained this gameplay core identity.

When you invest this heavily into something (and MMOs are all about that), you get attached. And when the thing you loved changes this much so suddenly... yea...

I have a 70 mch that I wish I could main. its weaponskills look badass and its dps is on par with bard. its the low utility that makes it bad. its like they just forgot to balance the classes for 4.0. Yoshi did ssome obvious favoritism towards bard lol

The weird thing is, I really like the SB changes to MCH. Before, it was a relatively methodical (read: dull) proc-based 1-2-3 class rooted in place because gunmage. Now, with Stormblood, it feels very active, with lots of emphasis on resource management, and honestly, it's very engaging to me. The problem is that, right now, we deal less damage than bards do, with less utility. We're bottom of the barrel with few forms of raid utility to warrant bringing us over anything else. That's not me crying because we're not "meta", and the meta can go f*ck itself, but it's easy to understand why some of us are being turned away from party finder pick ups when we don't really bring anything to the table. And it sucks. It sucks so hard.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

The weird thing is, I really like the SB changes to MCH. Before, it was a relatively methodical (read: dull)

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I was and am a MCH main from 3.0 and as much as I was attached to 3.0 MCH I'm inclined to agree.

I do question if a lot of the concern and "clunkyness" (I don't feel clunky at all, personally) is the low maximum potential damage output of MCH at the moment. It feels good to play, overheating accidentally becomes a thing of the past with practice and development of a general sense of what your heat is at so you can look away from it and even the big bad skill of Flamethrower is used in your opener and every minute after that potentially despite people saying it's an unused skill that they take off their bar.

So yeah, if MCH was a high end DPS at the moment I wonder if a lot of the clunk and identity issues people seem to have with the class wouldn't be as much of a forethought.

It has it's issues, but aside from potency and stronger overheating mechanics I don't see or feel the clunk, except maybe having to weave back on your GB after a Overheated Wildfire but I only started hating that after the thread brought it to my attention, heh.

Naturally we all have our own experiences with the class- but I fail to see a lot of the complaints about MCH short of potency issues.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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For me it is more that the development of the 4.0 MCh kind of missed up on some areas of the new mechanic for MCH.


Starting with the general gameplay MCH is aiming for is that MCh is being developed to focus more on being a Range Damage Focus DPS Job as the opposite to Bard's gameplay being a Support DoT Focus DPS Job. MCh takes in less utility and more on damage but they kind of missed up on that part for obvious reasons.

Second is the utilization of the Heat mechanic as it is made to add on to MCH current management gameplay it had with Ammo back in 3.0/3.X while also serving to increase MCH damage. It does increase the damage by 5% and upgrades the basic 123 skill to Overheat skills but the Heat System could have provided so much more than just a extra 5% damage and upgraded 123 Skills. It also has added on some more restrictions for MCH to not go crazy with their ammo due to Quick reload reducing heat by 10 heat thus it become prefered to only use quick reload between 60 to 99 or if players can regain back to that 50 heat mark with Hot Shot.

Third is Hot Shot, what can I say it is a simple answer as Hot shot is just there to add on to what MCH has to manage being a 30 second 5% damage buff that adds 10 heat thus players will have to consider when to use it so they don't accidently overheat. There is no really much reason why Hot Shot is still with MCH other than to be extra management stuff for a extra 5% damage boost.

If anything breaks the "flow" of MCH, it's literally the heat gauge itself.


Ideally, you overheat for 10% extra damage on demand, preferrably lining it up with Wildfire and utilizing certain skills to manage ideal heat ranges besides.

What actually happens is a frequent start-stop micro-management of the gauge. Don't use your reloads under 50 heat. Don't overheat without the utilities to ramp back up as needed or it's a DPS loss. Manage ideal heat ranges (now impossible anywhere between 52 and 62. Reloads alone simply won't prevent it). The slightest mistake is costly, and mechanical interferrence (a la stuns, extreme caution mechanics, damage debuffs, etc.) can completely ruin Wildfire, and while that's always been a concern, combining that with overheating makes missed Wildfires even more punishing.

In BRD's case, there's almost no time you'd ever hesitate to use a skill. No worry of possible penalties for using what you've got. If you got it, use it, and keep that damage rolling. Songs are practically autopilot support on fairly short cooldowns, which you'll be rotating through anyways, thus keeping up the passive crit bonus, and most song mechanics working off your DoT ticks. Let me repeat that: Working off your DoT ticks. MCH currently has little that works together, and many elements that can work against each other (i.e. reloading under 50 heat stopping/slowing down heat generation, lengthy cooldowns on essential skills). As a 60 BRD, I've hit a Pitch Perfect crit nearly on par with Wildfire at 70. This hardly makes MCH unplayable, and I very much still love the job, but it really does highlight the disparity between the two:

BRD: passive party support through songs, ability procs/augments between songs, simplified DoT management allowing for constant damage uptime
MCH: conflicting skills, constant micro management to manage Heat gauge (less for optimal range, but more for prevention of poorly timed Overheat so as to minimize the damage penalties after) leads to awkward stops in execution, a full 10 levels of missing essential Heat gauge management for anyone between 52 and 62, and poorly implemented changes to things that worked fine as they were previously.

MCH currently works harder to achieve less and that's just not okay.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

MCH currently works harder to achieve less and that's just not okay.

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I don't see it really as hard work and I don't see an issue with classes having different difficulty curves because promoting identical workload inevitably thins the options for a class to have unique mechanics- I also don't believe that a class being more difficult is grounds for necessarily higher payout than its competition. I agree with you that MCH is a naked class before 70 that needs all of its tools and that needs editing, though I don't know how they'd do it personally.

I just don't think we have to castrate any semblance of difficulty with maintaining our heat to bring our "difficulty" curve in line with the other mana battery.

Edit: I use the word difficulty a few times which I feel is too stern a word for what I mean. Perhaps "alternate thought processes" for playing a class would be better heh.

It's not a matter of difficulty even. Fact is, you HAVE to manage heat or you Overheat and push a penalty as well as not using your tools that work well together to make full use of it. BRD? When should you NOT play a song? When should you NOT refresh your DoTs? That constant management simply isn't there, despite constant passive support, and skills that set each other up, not conflict.

Maybe I want the potency on the next shot? But I'm at 50, better not Quick Reload. Sure, one Hot Shot will fix that, but is that a choice BRD simply doesn't have to make.
Did you get targeted for a mechanic that stops/stuns you as you went to start a Wildfire? Overheated for it too? Too bad. Gonna use Flamethrower but now you need to move out of that aoe? Too bad. BRD - Played the wrong song at the wrong time? Is the other one still available? Minor loss. Cooldown on the one you misused? Hardly an issue. Can you still deal damage effectively with minimal loss? Without even batting an eye.

I'm all for unique mechanics for the jobs, but as it currently stands, MCH is high risk, heavy effort, low reward, and BRD is low risk, light effort, high reward. I'm not saying simplify MCH (it's technically "simpler" now than its original iteration), but the conflicts in the kit need to go. If we're to provide less support (and I should note, MP/TP are the biggest support utilities you even bring a BRD/MCH for, so there's really little gained or lost there), we ought to deal more damage. But as it currently stands, as a MCH you do more to accomplish less than a BRD, and unique job mechanics aside, that's not okay.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm all for unique mechanics for the jobs, but as it currently stands, MCH is high risk, heavy effort, low reward, and BRD is low risk, light effort, high reward.

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Like I said, I have no issue with this scenario short of MCH being low reward. I would go as far to say as "high risk" isn't exactly a thing in FF14's classes. It's not a high risk not paying off when you fat finger a skill and overheat, it's just a mistake that you correct over time. Seasoned 4.0 MCH's don't overheat much or ever by accident- does that mean the class becomes Low risk low reward at the moment?

That's my issue with that ideology behind risky classes- it's just mistakes and learning to correct and get over mistakes.

I'm inclined to agree. MCH is incredibly fun and active to play, and managing the heat is an intense feeling of euphoria not unlike KOing an entire room of mobs with one HEAT action in the Yakuza series! A couple tweaks here and there might help MCH, but as it is I've been considering swapping mains from SAM because it's so much more enjoyable~

This Thread might be old but I want to put this out there, even with all the changes from SB and gear. I have seen a 19k wildfire....19K!!!! keeep trying!! Keep Sticking with it!!! We can all do it!!!!

Your positive PoV is exactly what every MCH main agrees with: The job IS fun.
It is visually pleasing and despite a very good MCH being equal to a regular BRD; The job itself IS fun and hardly anyone disagrees.
The problem starts when peoples start refusing your favourite job into parties or you see your hard work not being paid off (Melding, Farming gear, etc.) yet your DPS stays under what it SHOULD be (because DPS is what matters to MCH right now, since we clearly aren't giving others any considerable support)
The idea of MCH, the skills, the sprint animation, the victory pose, hell, even the LB3 is fucking awesome.
But unless you're only running dungeons, you will want more.
I have a static, I am starting to level a BRD because even though they won't care that I play MCH, I have empathy for them and we ALL know that a BRD would bring more to our team, and honestly, I am enjoying it too, its brainless powerful.
I am trying to keep my hopes at bay so I won't be disappointed in case a MCH buff comes only in a couple months.

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Originally Posted by AmandaLashaquoa

Your positive PoV is exactly what every MCH main agrees with: The job IS fun.
It is visually pleasing and despite a very good MCH being equal to a regular BRD; The job itself IS fun and hardly anyone disagrees.
The problem starts when peoples start refusing your favourite job into parties or you see your hard work not being paid off (Melding, Farming gear, etc.) yet your DPS stays under what it SHOULD be (because DPS is what matters to MCH right now, since we clearly aren't giving others any considerable support)
The idea of MCH, the skills, the sprint animation, the victory pose, hell, even the LB3 is fucking awesome.
But unless you're only running dungeons, you will want more.
I have a static, I am starting to level a BRD because even though they won't care that I play MCH, I have empathy for them and we ALL know that a BRD would bring more to our team, and honestly, I am enjoying it too, its brainless powerful.
I am trying to keep my hopes at bay so I won't be disappointed in case a MCH buff comes only in a couple months.

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I went through a similar situation when I changed to main AST back in 3.0. Being rejected from parties, your static begging you to change job, SE doing small band aid changes and dealing with the negative stigma afterwards was rough. I believe Mch back in 3.0 went through a similar deal. SE isn't dumb. They read the forums and I am sure they have the data to support these claims. Sometimes they are a bit stubborn, but if it gets super bad they will do adjustments.

Mechanically the new MCH is tones of fun. Historically in most mmos/expansions the weakest class at the start gets over buffed so lets hope history repeats itself? I'm ready to main MCH at this point as soon as proper buffs come in.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

MCH currently works harder

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Played both, MCH definitely doesn't work harder than BRD, at least if the BRD is doing everything he is suposed to do.

If you only look at the DPS "rotation" yeah, overall, no.

Excuse me, your MCH is lv. 65; You haven't got to the end yet to judge that MCH is not harder than BRD; Third Child is only lv60 BRD too, and I am Lv.36; None of us have enough experience to judge the other class, including me. What we say is what it ~looks~ like; But we all know that we cannot say X is good or bad if we don't go all the way.

You do have the most lvs with both, but still; The community does say that MCH plays harder than BRD due to all managements, one good example of this is that BRD does not have to manage a gauge and their Straight Shot; The equivalent of Straight Shot to MCH is Hot Shot, but on BRD you have a 20% chance to proc a critical on a skill that increases 10% of your crit chance, MCH does not have this "incentive" to apply Hot Shot, so you have to apply it by yourself; BRD's DoTs can be applied pretty much one after the other, so you can't simply forget it, as far as I know, you don't need to know simple math while playing a BRD to make all your skills align and while doing your priority "rotation" you need to keep track of your gauge so you won't shoot away your chance of a decent Wild Fire and so on~
I am only lv36, what do I know, but I am enjoying BRD yes, but even at lv36, I can understand why it is easier to be efficient as a BRD than as a MCH, I do intend to keep leveling it asap to 70 so I can take it to my static raids, because it will benefit everyone in it.
But anyway, MCH priority rotation is not fluid at all, you have to preemptively think about your moves, BRD is just fluid, I might be wrong later on, but so far its what it feels like.

The statement was "MCH currently works harder to achieve less". Please don't quote it out of context.

Support wise nothing has really changed, we can still give MP/TP, still make the target vulnerable with Hypercharge, and still lower incoming damage albeit for a shorter time. But damage wise, even if you manage heat well, even if you're able to maximize every Wildfire, you still come up short compared to BRD who neither has to deal with as heavy gauge management or penalties for failing to do so if/when mistakes happen. I have no qualms about the extra support offered by BRD, but if we're to be fashioned as the Offensive Physical Ranged job, SE has a ways to go to make MCH live up to that.

As I said, if you only look at your dps rotation, yes, MCH is harder.

Support in mind, BRD has a shit ton of stuff more to look after/be aware of.

You can mindlessly use trobadour, nor nature's minne, and, the stuff BRD has to be aware of (dots, SS, and song/procs) are all in different parts of the screen. Making you be aware of up to 4 parts of the screen at the same time, but keep thinking BRD is easy to play with your lvl 36 BRD.

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Originally Posted by Exterium

As I said, if you only look at your dps rotation, yes, MCH is harder.

Support in mind, BRD has a shit ton of stuff more to look after/be aware of.

You can mindlessly use trobadour, nor nature's minne, and, the stuff BRD has to be aware of (dots, SS, and song/procs) are all in different parts of the screen. Making you be aware of up to 4 parts of the screen at the same time, but keep thinking BRD is easy to play with your lvl 36 BRD.

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Support works both ways. Nature's minne is no more difficult than knowing how to use pali for a tank buster. Troubadour is indeed harder because it's effectiveness depends on song usage and aoe damage type. Which realistically means you're 2/3 of achieving the desired effect of damage down. It certainly isn't as easy to use as dismantle. But moving from that, on the topic of four parts of the screen, MCH has to do that as well.
1) Heat and ammo
2) Bars for procs
3) Flipping hotshot. I hate hotshot. Get rid of hotshot. There's no desire for hotshot. It's so boring, has no extra interaction, and must be on at all times or suffer a dps loss. I wish I had a hotter shot proc so I could guarantee a crit with this thing. I'll even take a positional. I'D RATHER HAVE IT PRUNED. I HATE hotshot. Put this on the BAR or something. PUT IT ON THE HEAT GAUGE
sorry. Um. So;
4) Boss castbar. For things like using palisade.

I won't be so glib as to mention the difficulty of either kit because I was recently educated that just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

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If we are going to count everything:

1) Song
2) Bars for procs
3) Flipping Straight Shot, I hate SS.
4) Boss castbar
5) Dot duration
6) Own MP (Foe)

Also, Nature's minne is quite different from palisade, since it's not a damage reduction, most tanks won't ever need it without it being almost entirely wasted, it's best used for a DPS or heal taking unexpected damage, thus making you be more aware of people's HP when mechanics happen. BRD has palisade too btw.

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Originally Posted by Exterium

BRD has palisade too btw.

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I know that you silly goose. I'm saying that it really doesn't require much thought process. Most healers end up overhealing the heck out of the raid. My earthly star alone when it crits loses 20% of itself to overhealing alone. And I've been in susan where every single lightning has been dropped on the raid and we've survived.

Anyways I simply meant to show that aside from dot management we're not so different.
songs to heat (duration to amount)
procs for procs (my combo steps, your PP)
straight shot for hotshot (which we both hate)
castbar to castbar (troubadour to dismantle)
and you have as mentioned
Dot Duration
and
MP
I guess if I would list anything MCH have it'd be
CD syncs
and WF (But those would probably be the same thing as they're essentially the same thing)

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

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Testing out Bard now I found that...

1) Songs are far more easier to manage than Heat mechanic becuase keeping the song up is easier. All player have to do is activate the next song of your choice once the current song ends. With 3 songs players always have room to keep up the music.

2) The DoT is easier to manage since the upgrade to them into 30 seconds timer has greatly boosted Bard's DoT recharge timeframe for Iron Jaw use. DoT can also be placed on multiple enemies thus the Bard can focus more on multiple enemies while still causing damage through their DoT on another enemy. More enemies with Bard's DoT the more chance for Song's mechanic to Proc.

3) Stright Shot actually benefits the Bard's Mechanic, beyond simply increase Bard's skill attack crit chance, by increase Proc chance on DoT so the Song mechanics can proc more. Hot Shot lacks that type of synergy with the MCh Heat Mechanic which makes it feel more like a filler than a actual beneift beyond the 5% damage boost.

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Originally Posted by Atriamithra

This Thread might be old but I want to put this out there, even with all the changes from SB and gear. I have seen a 19k wildfire....19K!!!! keeep trying!! Keep Sticking with it!!! We can all do it!!!!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA51YWC-hI

Here's a 22k Wildfire which is pretty nifty. Granted the conditions are perfect but it's fun to see WF back around where it was when we pumped every CD we had into it before we lost them.

Edit: Looks like it's an AOE balance- so he wasn't even really being personally fed powerful cards.

Maximizing mch is harder than most classes. Some people might manage the heat, ammo procs, and cool downs to moderate or high efficiency but perfecting it I think might rank the class as the hardest in the game. Too maximize it you basically have to keep your eyes glued to the heat gauge, ammo, and hot bar.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Too maximize it you basically have to keep your eyes glued to the heat gauge, ammo, and hot bar.

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I feel like the better I get and the higher numbers I get is when I can start counting Heat and Ammo in my head. Sometimes I won't look at my heat for over 15 seconds-ish and it certainly helps with avoiding mixups. Still have to keep one eye on your bar for your 1-2-3 but I've been doing that for 2 years now.

If you get down about how MCH plays, just go play some PvP.
MCH in PvP is well thought out and tons of fun!