As a Tank main, please revert tanks back to VIT+STR Scaling

There was nothing wrong with this formula, and there was no good reason to change it. If you are worried that we will be too strong after dying, then change the weakness stat to lower damage dealt instead. This would fix all of the tank problems, while keeping the healers happy. It's a simple fix really. HP inflation(lol) will be a thing no matter what with the way our accessories are.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

There was nothing wrong with this formula, and there was no good reason to change it. If you are worried that we will be too strong after dying, then change the weakness stat to lower damage dealt instead. This would fix all of the tank problems, while keeping the healers happy. It's a simple fix really. HP inflation(lol) will be a thing no matter what with the way our accessories are.

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Yes, there was something wrong with the formula but the current "solution" is not fair for tanks either.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Yes, there was something wrong with the formula but the current "solution" is not fair for tanks either.

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What was wrong with it? I thought it was great and made sense, unlike STR scaling.

the census seems to think it's so a good tank cant out dps a bad DPS, or so tanks incur a weakness for being rezed, both dumb reasons in my own opinion.. What punishment does the tank face for dying mid fight? maybe the wipe that follows? or the loss of the DPS LB3? really it feels petty because a warrior out DPS'd a bard (that might as well of been a carry) to lose to a tank.
ill let these changes slide if they tank VIT off all gear not tank related, its a tank stat see, dps/heals have no business using it lol

Honestly, there are ways to make anything, full VIT, full STR and hybrid scaling work.

They're just being stupid and stubborn about it.

By far and wide the easiest fix would be to just put STR and VIT on accessories as they put it on the left side gear already. They're job locked anyway.
More convoluted, they can convert tank accessories to STR only and then either buff tank stance, or put more VIT on left side gear to compensate.
They can make tanks scale full off VIT and then simply set the contribution ratio of VIT to damage to the ratio between VIT and other main stats. At worst, that's one number change per big patch.

It's really not rocket science. There's no reason for them to struggle so much.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

What was wrong with it? I thought it was great and made sense, unlike STR scaling.

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The thing is, weakness in it's current form doesn't give you penalty for vit, so tanks wouldnt be penalized as hard for dying, when it should be pretty much the worst thing that can happen, so that would be backwards. BUT the tank in full slaying will be fixed in some manner come 4.05 and then it will be fine, probably.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

What was wrong with it? I thought it was great and made sense, unlike STR scaling.

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Basically tank damage was being too relied on for specific content (by which I mean nearly all content), so it was reverted back to STR so that the only real damage that would make or break a fight is coming from party members specifically there just to do damage.

The only real issue that came from the reversion is that a general deficiency of enmity generation became an issue in most circumstances and would only get worse as players grew further in power and item level. The current fix was to give flat increases in enmity generation to skills designed to generate threat, but that's just a band-aid to fix a severed arm. The fix then would be to find a way of making enmity generation for tanks--not damage, just enmity generation--adequately scalable so that it can continue to be beneficial amidst healers and dps getting stronger.

Remember, at the end of the day, you're a tank. You're the decoy. You're not a dps, and dealing damage is not--and should not--be a priority on any level.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

What was wrong with it? I thought it was great and made sense, unlike STR scaling.

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It's a balancing problem.

Increasing tank DPS through VIT has these possible side-effects:
-Tank eHP is increased in comparison to incoming damage
-Non-tank eHP is reduced if tank eHP is balanced by increasing incoming damage

Likewise, reducing tank DPS through VIT has the opposite side-effects:
-Tank eHP is reduced in comparison to incoming damage
-Non-tank eHP is increased if tank eHP is balanced by reducing incoming damage

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Remember, at the end of the day, you're a tank. You're the decoy. You're not a dps, and dealing damage is not--and should not--be a priority on any level.

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Remember that at the end of the day, mitigation and healing are binary pass/fail checks and completely worthless past the pass point. It's not surprising people aren't willing to excel at worthlessness and make something that actually matters a priority instead - namely damage.

People really need to get the thought out of their head that the trinity would somehow have 3 equally important pillars. The only thing that truly matters is damage, tanking and healing are literally chores you "have to" do because of un-avoidable damage, but they are completely useless beyond that.

Why not just increase the enmity that the tanking stances produce would of seemed the more logical step, switch stance to dps stance after a provoke affect on target which transfers enmity to the caster of provoke.

That way it helps dump aggro easier for tank swaps...

Job done!

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Why not just increase the enmity that the tanking stances produce would of seemed the more logical step, switch stance to dps stance after a provoke affect on target which transfers enmity to the caster of provoke.

That way it helps dump aggro easier for tank swaps...

Job done!

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Well, we already got a skill that transfers aggro - forgot the english name again, but tank swaps dont have to be difficult anymore if both tanks know what they're doing.

Aggro from certain tank skills has been increased with the last patch aswell and they've said they're looking into it. As a paladin main I can say: Yes, aggro got a little tricky in SB and I needed to use flash more often to secure it - but that was also mainly as a fresh level 70 with my jobset tanking against Susano-weapon-Dps. After I got my own Susano-weapon and a bit more of a feeling what goes and what doesnt go in SB, it wasnt really an issue anymore.

Those complaints are never from tanks who are having real aggro-problems. They're always about "but muh deeeeps!" and tanks who are upset that they're dealing less damange than a dps-class now.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

...The only real issue that came from the reversion is that a general deficiency of enmity generation became an issue in most circumstances and would only get worse as players grew further in power and item level.

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I have to admit, while trying to learn about tanking in general and with 4.0 fixes, I get so many mixed responses from this. I'm actually a bit confused, I get people saying holding hate is a problem, then I ask them what exactly are they doing because they might be doing something wrong that needs to be re-worked in 4.0. I get told that it's not enmity issues it's being able to do damage. The tank forums are very confusing to me now because some are claiming they can't hold hate and others are saying they can't do damage so why even bother trying to push anything out. Then some combine the two. The seeds of my confusion come from me not having any enmity issues since I started warrior but people aren't very fond of being corrected.

I've given up trying to get advice....I mean I want to learn, and I want to know how to be a tank, but when I do it gets into a debate of "switch to PLD" well..I don't want to. I like Warrior, then it turns into "well warrior is gimped.." and it's a rabbit hole from down there.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

What was wrong with it? I thought it was great and made sense, unlike STR scaling.

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I believe there's other ways to help with both damage dealt, damage taken and HP inflation without having to go back. We have the tool-kit, we just need some creative minds to help us leap forward. Lets not take a step back, but engage the system and put forth some effort to make it better.

From the way it seems it's a nicer system because the world hurts a bit more. Yes you have certain people who go "I have a great healer friend" and they can do a bit more, but in normal random set-ups, there's a middle-ground. Lv 50 / 60 roulettes and HW + I've noticed I get to heal a bit more as a healer, use cooldowns a bit more as a tank. I even ask for TP or MP if I need it. "You do? that makes you a bad player" ..well i do mess up time to time but i'm not above asking help from my fellow players. If me asking for a goad to get TP back because I wasn't paying attention vs me having no TP and holding on to my Sayian Pride makes me horrible, well I'm still a bad player and I'll learn one day. Thanks though!

Sorry for the rant, anyways I think with secondaries and the new gauge system we can find a way to get to where there's a middle-ground we can agree on, but only by applying them moving forward. Not moving backwards with a band-aid fix that says "well it used to work!"

The current scaling would be fine IF tanks were allowed to use STR jewelry, but since SE said no to that then going back to STR/VIT would be ideal.

Make damage scale off STR and enmity scale off vitality. There you go. Enmity issue solved while keeping to SE's stance of keeping tank damage low.

Well,

Tanks cold have a skill where they can convert X points of VIT in STR, something like Cleric Stance worked in the past, but only a percentage.

More VIT, more points can be converted.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Those complaints are never from tanks who are having real aggro-problems. They're always about "but muh deeeeps!" and tanks who are upset that they're dealing less damange than a dps-class now.

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Let's step back a bit here. Tanks were only ever dealing more damage than bad DPS. Even throughout Gordias, Warrior wasn't touching a good Dragoon or Ninja. Putting all that aside, why shouldn't tanks worry about their damage? If I have threat properly managed and can survive every ability the boss throws at me, what else am I to focus on? It's a huge misconception tanks only care about "muh deeeeps!" There is always a mitigation limit in the same sense healers always have ample time to DPS because there just isn't enough healing requirements.

They could also make tenacity not useless and have enmity generation based on it since they want to force it on tanks.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Let's step back a bit here. Tanks were only ever dealing more damage than bad DPS. Even throughout Gordias, Warrior wasn't touching a good Dragoon or Ninja. Putting all that aside, why shouldn't tanks worry about their damage? If I have threat properly managed and can survive every ability the boss throws at me, what else am I to focus on? It's a huge misconception tanks only care about "muh deeeeps!" There is always a mitigation limit in the same sense healers always have ample time to DPS because there just isn't enough healing requirements.

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My point wasnt that tanks shouldnt care about their dps - ofc they should, just as much as a healer should try their best to add dps aswell. My point was: people should be honest about whats the issue here. Because aggro isnt it - less dps-output is (and maybe the loss of flash for warrior).
Our aggro is fine (as long as you actually watch out for it) - our damage-output took a blow.

To me, raid accessories from omega being forever worthless for tanks is a pretty big issue. I raid for fun yes, but I also raid for the gear and knowing that my entire right side will not help me is a big disappointment.

Like, you think tanks wanna go back to overmelding crafted accessories like in gordias?

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Originally Posted by Kelg

There was nothing wrong with this formula, and there was no good reason to change it. If you are worried that we will be too strong after dying, then change the weakness stat to lower damage dealt instead. This would fix all of the tank problems, while keeping the healers happy. It's a simple fix really. HP inflation(lol) will be a thing no matter what with the way our accessories are.

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How about no.....how about focusing on damage mitigation and holding aggro than trying to play tanks as a DPS. Come patch 3.05.....it wont matter anymore. No more STR for any tanks and its smart to get use to it now!

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Originally Posted by Kelg

There was nothing wrong with this formula, and there was no good reason to change it.

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How about they actually utilize Tenacity properly since its Tank exclusive? The gear has also already been updated for it.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

How about they actually utilize Tenacity properly since its Tank exclusive? The gear has also already been updated for it.

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yes but then again i still prefer more crit dmg then tenacity.

I would like to vit as dmg scale for tank was great nothing wrong about it.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I have to admit, while trying to learn about tanking in general and with 4.0 fixes, I get so many mixed responses from this. I'm actually a bit confused, I get people saying holding hate is a problem, then I ask them what exactly are they doing because they might be doing something wrong that needs to be re-worked in 4.0. I get told that it's not enmity issues it's being able to do damage. The tank forums are very confusing to me now because some are claiming they can't hold hate and others are saying they can't do damage so why even bother trying to push anything out. Then some combine the two. The seeds of my confusion come from me not having any enmity issues since I started warrior but people aren't very fond of being corrected.

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So the general belief behind the whole damage argument is that damage = enmity,which is true since less damage from tanks does mean less enmity generated, but tanks have additional means of generating extra enmity that doesn't require doing extra damage such as tank stances and and Butcher's Block or whatever a basic enmity rotation a tank job has.

As for how well you're holding threat, that could be a couple of things. Even before the fix to enmity, Overpower still generated a good bit of enmity. You could've also had dps that were either bad, undergeared or smart enough to mind their own enmity. Same thing could apply to healers, especially if you're working your cooldowns well enough. Single-target enmity is a lot easier to handle than AoE enmity, which was why I learned the best way to hold mobs on Paladin wasn't to spam Flash endlessly, but to do my single-target enmity rotation to each target. Quite a number of circumstances that could arise from each case explaining a tank's efficiency (or even lack thereof) prior to the temporary fix to enmity generators like Overpower, but ultimately tanks will continue to be at a disadvantage at the start of each patch until a better solution is enacted.

I played only in 2.0 when PLD dps wasn't a thing, but Warrior dps did exist so I am indifferent about the whole tanks should or should not do dps. However, I have always been of the mindset that if you are actively tanking you need to be in your tank stance using your tank rotation until enmity is at a reasonable level to switch off to a dps rotation. As far as stats go I kind of wished they would have made secondary stats like tenacity, determination, skill speed, or crit scale better across the board and actually be useful to tank classes. Basically completely ignore STR as a stat and make these secondary stats contribute to dps, or mitigation abilities and provide slightly more variation for tank spec gear. You could keep Vit on everything, but now you could balance between how much mitigation and dps you're getting based on your secondary stats. In the case of Vit it needs to do more than just increase an HP pool. I would suggest increasing healing received both from self heals as well as from outside sources for tanks only, otherwise it only serves one purpose and makes the stat as a whole uninteresting.

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Originally Posted by Tagihi

yes but then again i still prefer more crit dmg then tenacity.

I would like to vit as dmg scale for tank was great nothing wrong about it.

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Tenacity isn't set it stone is what I am saying it can always be changed. Also I agree with Vit dmg scaling.

These 2 erase any need for STR, which should be useless to the Role and simplifies to avoid unnecessary confusion.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

My point wasnt that tanks shouldnt care about their dps - ofc they should, just as much as a healer should try their best to add dps aswell. My point was: people should be honest about whats the issue here. Because aggro isnt it - less dps-output is (and maybe the loss of flash for warrior).
Our aggro is fine (as long as you actually watch out for it) - our damage-output took a blow.

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That's fair. I may have disagreed before the enmity update, but now our aggro is fine.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

To me, raid accessories from omega being forever worthless for tanks is a pretty big issue. I raid for fun yes, but I also raid for the gear and knowing that my entire right side will not help me is a big disappointment.

Like, you think tanks wanna go back to overmelding crafted accessories like in gordias?

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They won't be forever worthless. Even if Savage difficulty is reduced yet again, we'll eventually reach a point where tanks simply won't survive attacks without Fending. It does suck though you're wearing Fending for a bloated HP pool you won't ever need but the alternative will have become too weak to compensate.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

How about no.....how about focusing on damage mitigation and holding aggro than trying to play tanks as a DPS. Come patch 3.05.....it wont matter anymore. No more STR for any tanks and its smart to get use to it now!

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Yeah, let's make tanking as boring as possible so that even less people will play it. Great idea!

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Tenacity isn't set it stone is what I am saying it can always be changed. Also I agree with Vit dmg scaling.

These 2 erase any need for STR, which should be useless to the Role and simplifies to avoid unnecessary confusion.

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Because of the changes to weakness, they can't make VIT dmg scaling. I would prefer to keep the current weakness where you don't lose VIT for death as getting up only to not survive the next raid wide damage always sucked.

Really, there are only two options to them. Add STR to 61+ Fending accessories or alter Weakness to be a flat damage down/healing down % and go back to VIT damage scaling. Personally, I think it'd be much easier for them to add STR to 40-50 Fending accs than to completely re-examine how they handle Weakness for all jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

Yeah, let's make tanking as boring as possible so that even less people will play it. Great idea!

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Thats your opinion Kelg but alot of the tanks in my FC and those I talk to in Twitch completely disagree with you. As I stated, 3.05 is when STR accessories can no longer be used.....thats SE making those changes so get use to them because they are the law of Eorzea when it happens no matter how your view is.....

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Basically tank damage was being too relied on for specific content (by which I mean nearly all content), so it was reverted back to STR so that the only real damage that would make or break a fight is coming from party members specifically there just to do damage.

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That sounds like they should have just messed with the scaling of VIT-->damage.

My favourite part was the excuse of "HP inflation" if tank damage scaled off VIT. It's literally impossible to get more VIT as tanks, because you're already capped on everything.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Remember that at the end of the day, mitigation and healing are binary pass/fail checks and completely worthless past the pass point. It's not surprising people aren't willing to excel at worthlessness and make something that actually matters a priority instead - namely damage.

People really need to get the thought out of their head that the trinity would somehow have 3 equally important pillars. The only thing that truly matters is damage, tanking and healing are literally chores you "have to" do because of un-avoidable damage, but they are completely useless beyond that.

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I don't like the think of healing as a chore. =/ I like healing.

We were discussing a solution in The Balance and we agreed that we would love 4 stat right side for tanks.

http://imgur.com/a/jXDex

When he said "but now tanks *and healers have more stats overall than DPS", I was like, "Good!" lol

Ummm no...

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Originally Posted by Zojha

tanking and healing are literally chores you "have to" do because of un-avoidable damage, but they are completely useless beyond that.

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You have to do those "chores", because if you didn't, the whole party would die. >.>

And, the fact that you see them as simply unnecessary chores makes me wonder if your one of those types that would tank as if they really wished they were dps.

If they remove tanks from from str acc the problem will be fixed I think that is what they will do in 4.05.