Yoshi-p expressed that theme of PLD should be the designated MT and I think it's in a wonderful spot right now.
However, in my opinion they left out the thematics of DRK.
I think we can all agree that across all iterations of DRK we used it for damage. [So why is the FFXIVs DRK complex with little to no reward in dps?]
Our new mechanic is lame and tacked on. Our skills are lackluster and could have so much more potential.
Delete Delirium. Make Bloodspiller extend BW and BP. 100% uptime or just extending it would be amazing.
Delete Dark passenger. Add its DA potency to Quietus. 160 DA+Q 260 and silence 4xx in grit.
Blood Price needs a mechanic as well.
takes 10% chance that the next DA'd weapon skill deals critical damage.
Thematically PLD and DRK are supposed to be two polar opposites.
One boasts a stronger defensive MT kit while the other has a better offensive OT kit.
In terms of Mitigation...
MT kit: PLD≥ WAR > DRK
Damage
OT kit: DRK ≥ WAR > PLD
Yet another drk whining thread
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07-06-2017, 09:12 AMJhett_MagnumYet another drk whining thread
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07-06-2017, 09:55 AMDerio
Increase DP DA potency to 280 or reduce its no cost.
Quietus needs a potency buff for DA.
However SE said fixing tanks is high priority and we will see in 4.05 -
07-06-2017, 10:02 AMKalocin
In theory its a fun idea, in practice it isn't. I don't think any content should be gimped because you lacked a Paladin.
Now what I think putting it in practice here makes more sense:
Make our offensive cool downs defensive. Through damage we become better tanks.
Ie. Soul Eater's self heal currently.
Another one would be say dark arts with Bloodspiller puts a reprisal-like effect up. Dark Passenger's reworked as a mini debuff for bosses in mind. Heck it's in the name, throw a silence on Quietus. -
07-06-2017, 11:11 AMSyzzleSparkWith all due respect to Yoshi P and the work he does, he has a very casual view of his own game and no tank should be a better or worse MT than another. Differences should be in DPS and utility, and having 1 tank hold the boss for an entire encounter is woefully inefficient and leaves half both tanks' kits completely unused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
I disagree. After Gordias, DRK was used not for its damage but for the fact that Delirium and Reprisal were 100% superior to Divine Veil. Midas and Creator had far more lenient DPS checks and thus DRK's added DPS was not the primary reason to take one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
This is 100% subjective and I disagree. Most of the new DRK abilities are actually very good and well designed, and our gauge is by far the best designed out of all the tanks without a doubt. Yeah there are things about DRK that need fixing but they've fixed almost all of its conflicting design elements and made the overall framework of the job very slick. Most of the problems have to do with potency numbers/percentages and a lack of personal mitigation/DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
Delirium is amazing and I would not remove it or any part of it. It provides you with a surplus of MP and the extension of BW creates an incredible burst window that is very satisfying. For a DPS buff, I think they could make it so that Delirium tacks on a +30% damage dealt increase to Blood Weapon (this sounds like a lot, but across 2 minutes it is about a 5% increase). Its a window you have to hit just like WAR and Inner Release, removing it would make cries of "DRK IS BRAINDEAD" even more deafening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
The whole "Delete xyz ability" meme is really stupid and unimaginative. Buff abilities, sure, but remove them for no reason to make the job even less interesting? Even Shake it Off could be buffed to be useful, if for instance it blocked 100% of all detrimental statuses for a full 10s, basically a Hallowed Ground but without the invuln.
Again with the lazy delete meme. Dark Passenger should simply be reverted to its original form. There is nothing wrong with Quietus. Its our only AoE that doesn't cost mana to use and gives us a breather from AD spam while dealing more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
Our Grit damage is already crazy high, relatively speaking. I would rather Blood Price have an additional defensive mechanic, like a small heal over time, or -10% damage taken. Just to give DRK something that rewards us with some bonus mitigation/healing for a small sacrifice of DPS, similar to IB/Equilibrium or Clemency/Passage of Arms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
This is a really poor idea, because then you make DRK a garbage tank. No tank should be fundamentally weaker defensively than the others as this ruins the tank's ability to function in content. The whole MT/OT thing is foolish anyway, as I stated above. You are co-tank/co-tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
There should not be this prima-dona "I AM THE MT I WILL TANK ALL OF THE THINGS DON'T YOU DARE TANK ANYTHING FOR ME" schtick, or this shrinking-violet "Um, hey guys ...I'm the OT... I'm here for the carry and free pass to slip under the radar dealing subpar DPS while not handling any actual tank mechanics... I'll be over here if you need me..." mentality. -
07-06-2017, 11:25 AMJim_Berry
As a PLD main, I have been starting to level up my DRK (currently Lv63 after being Lv60 for a long time). In the current dungeon, I like how I can stay in Grit, and spam my Souleater combo with Dark Arts (I barely have a need to Power Slash at the moment). Since I don't dps on my tanks, I like it's current setup. Please don't change this.
I was good as a healer, but struggled to dps on her.
I was good as mechanics and such as a dps, but struggled to dish out high damage.
Tanking is my last resort to continue playing this game, and tanking has been great to me. I cannot dps much as tank, but I do everything else fine. I've already retired BRD, DRG, and WHM. I'm left with PLD, DRK, WAR, AST, and NIN. -
07-06-2017, 01:41 PMDaniel_FuryI'd like to add that this skill is designed as an OT skill. It provides no emnity and it's our only physical damage aoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
Coupled with blood weapon, it will return 4xx mp and 3 blood per enemy hit.
I don't know what aoe potential will be added to savage but if we factor in DRKS aoe performance, it actually sits fairly well in balance with the slightly lower single target dps. I just hope they make use of this in the upcoming raids. (Current encounters do not make use of this advantage) -
07-06-2017, 03:54 PMJhett_Magnum1. So basically you'd rather homoginize tanks. You're saying fact that PLD can passively block phys/magic and parry attacks means all tanks should. I'm for uniqueness.It all comes down to content design.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
2. We're talking about thematics from all Final Fantasies.
3. To each thier own on that one, but imo there's always room for improvement.
4. There's nothing fun and imaginative about Delirium. It's just an extra button with a rediculous recast timer. The MP you get back isn't even that good. I'd rather hit BS and extend BW. Frees up a DA without clipping my gcds.
5. Quietus is useless in LaEX, SusEX, DS1.0,2.0,3.0, and 4.0. So it does need a buff unless savage and future primals spawn multiple adds.
Also DP adds nothing really innovative really. It conflicts with Blood Price.
6. Our damage is far from crazy high so I'm not sure why we have to lose something for it. Although mitigation on Blood Price would be sick.
7. (See 1.) -
07-06-2017, 04:22 PMDalmacus
Quietus is really just a bad skill. I mean we already have Abyssal drain, unleash and dark passenger why do we need more AOE skills?! I rather they replace quietus with scourge.
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07-07-2017, 07:22 AMChrono_RisingI feel this would work better as a oGCD at the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalmacus
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07-07-2017, 09:33 AMSyzzleSpark1. This is such a big, fat strawman I don't even know what to say to it in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
2. No, we're talking about balance in a game with a trinity system, not staying true to previous FF games. If this is the route you wanna take then its just going to devolve into "DRK should be a DPS" arguments.
3. No argument here
4. Is there something fun and imaginative about FoF or Berserk? You hit a button and you deal more damage for it. I suspect that you're not using it properly.
5. In single target boss encounters with no adds the lack of Quietus usage is moot because you dump the resource for it on Bloodspiller instead, so I'm not sure what the complaint is here. In dungeons you can spam AD until almost oom, hit Delirium/Carve and Spit, Quietus, more AD spam, Quietus... It gives us an AoE that doesn't cost mana and a way to dump our gauge in AoE situations, that's what its for and it serves that design purpose. You not personally liking the thematics of it is not cause for change.
6. Again with the straw man - I said our Grit damage was high relatively compared to the other tanks, mostly because of Bloodspiller ignoring Grit. What DRK needs in Grit is more defense, not more damage. We don't have a single native cooldown with an uptime higher than 10s and two of those are on a 3 minute or higher recast. Its almost like they gutted 80% of the job's personal mitigation, designed it up to 70 without fixing it, and then said "oh crap, this job is squishier than a cup of jello, we better dump all of its mitigation into this ONE skill and force it to rely on that one button for 90% of the fight"
7. MT/OT design is still a poor thing to adhere to. The OT's defensive tools go unused, and the MT's offensive tools go unused, and aggro cannot be managed/buffed effectively between the two through swaps. -
07-07-2017, 10:34 AMVallamariaYeah, and back before Stormblood came out they also told us the reason we weren't going to get a new Tank Job this expansion is because they wanted to focus on balancing the ones we already have. But we've all now seen just how well that so-called "balancing" has turned out. If anything it just raises the question of whether SE even has any idea of how to fix Tanks. Since it seems their idea of a "fix" is to just nerf the current strongest Job of a role into the ground and buff the weakest one up so high that it's soaring up way above in the sky!Quote:
Originally Posted by Derio
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07-07-2017, 02:27 PMJhett_Magnum1.If you can't understand it then there's no point really.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
2. In terms of tank balance DRK should have the strongest offensive kit that could also mitigate via damage. Ask me why.
4. Did you read the part where I said BS exstends BW? I'll take 100% uptime on BW any day and inadvertently making TBN feel that much better to use. Delirium could be reworked as a defensive cd if you want it that bad.
5. Yet again to each their own. Although I have a feeling Quietus is going to get a change of some sort.
6. You didn't say that though.
I agree on the latter though.
7. Content design must adhere to tanks first and foremost. Also no stance dancing, burn phases, tank swaps, adds, shirk etc...) :^) -
07-07-2017, 10:57 PMMnemosyniaHEY just because you say something is a strawman does not mean it is. If you dont have a retort say I just disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
1. Yes you were asking for homoganization.
2. Pointing out another skill that has nothing to do with the topic and is with out a doubt a strawman of strawmans (hey skill a is boring but so is skill b so it's fine?
3. We do the least damage of all the tanks wtf are you talking about. With the grit damage thing holy God damn the level of disinformation on this is insane.
Lastly dumping quietus just to drop you blood guage because you happen to be in an big pull and doing it only because you can't gain any blood is bad design, if you would rather DA+AB in every other is testiment that the skill sucks. -
07-08-2017, 01:38 AMSyzzleSpark
Except that I never said I wanted anything homogenized, and I never said drk/war should be able to parry magic, you guys literally just pulled that out of a hat. Hence, strawman.
I think the tanks should deal differing amounts of damage, and have differing amounts of utility. I do not think that a tank should have a cool down that is rendered useless by content. -
07-08-2017, 01:58 AMChrono_Rising
I know it is unlikely for us to get anything truly ground breaking come patch, but heres what I would like to see replace our old parry mechanics:
1. Bloodspiller lowers the cooldown timer on carve and spit by 6 seconds.
2. Dark arts lowers the cooldown timer on delirium by 3 seconds per use.
3. Sole Survivor grants 15 seconds of no resource cost for abilities.
4. TBN grants 10% reduced damage taken for 5 seconds if shield breaks. -
07-08-2017, 04:59 AMSyzzleSparkYes, finally, someone else in this thread that wants to fix actual problems and not just shoehorn us into an OT role by making our actual tanking tools 100% inferior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
My only problem with your suggestions is that they make it even harder to fight resource overflow, perhaps even impossible in practice; I think certain mana returns would have to be returned to make it work, but otherwise these are nice. -
07-08-2017, 08:52 AMChrono_Rising
I don't see this as a problem, I can always dark arts something else lol. But I like the sole survivor suggestion because I believe it would mean we actually get to spam bloodspiller dark arts free of cost for a few. So just like mana floor first then do that. I kinda see it like a two phase dps system. On the one hand you build resources like crazy, for the other you get to avoid resources for a short amount of time. The trick would be never doing both.