Why am I not seeing more shirk?

I need someone to explain why I'm not seeing more shirk in 8-man content. At the very least, you need to explain why you don't bring it to Susano Ex and Omega V4.

Now, before anyone jumps in and says tank swaps don't require shirk, let me say you are correct, but why wouldn't you use it now that it's available? Frankly, if you are going to make dps optimization your thing, then you should have it on your bar just as normal DPS should use their own enmity reducers. There have been a number of times now where I've been MT and had compensate for the lack of OT shirk with added enmity combos. I don't care enough about the loss of dps to make a stink over it in a group, but I really need to know why someone wouldn't bring it to an 8-man fight. Especially if you are going to go full 270 Meta Man as OT. (I personally don't wear 270 str pcs with PUG but that's me)

Because a new mechanic that is poorly understood by the general populous will always go underused.

I'm more asking the guys who roll up in 270 str gear. Those are the people who shouldn't claim ignorance to a mechanic.

The same reason you don't see other tanks using Reprisal or TBH/Intervention in the other tank. Also, DPS not using goad/feint/Addle/Mana Shift or BRD/MCH not using Refresh/Tactician for gods know why.

"I'm here to pew pew bro!"

You don't need to tank swap in V4. Thunder vuln up never goes up past 2 stacks.

Shirk is still good even without tank swaps if only to let the MT get away with dps stance and almost no hate combos.

Yep, taunt Shirk from the off tank and happy life.

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Originally Posted by Elixirboy

You don't need to tank swap in V4. Thunder vuln up never goes up past 2 stacks.

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Both tanks shirk swapping gives an instant (or staggered) 56% absolute threat increase per 2 minutes.

Because if you simply pay attention to the tank swap there is no need and more valuable choices.

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Originally Posted by Taubaud

Because if you simply pay attention to the tank swap there is no need and more valuable choices.

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More valuable choices? Given that, in an 8-man, each tank should have Rampart, Provoke and Reprisal, this leaves two slots.

Anticipation? It's trash.
Conv? Maybe. That's one slot potentially.
Ultimatum? Also trash.
Interject? Useful in some situations, but 8-man's is not one of them.
Low blow? See interject.
Awareness? Nice for WAR to cheese RI with, but not 100% needed. Possible option, but not really.
Shirk? Loads of threat control; tanks don't need to be in tank stance to hold hate; tank swaps can be cemented without issue (no random aoe's directed to the wrong target).

So of the 7 available options, only Conv is anything that could be considered "must have." Awareness is ok for WAR and not so great for DRK or PLD, but a WAR could go Awareness/Shirk just fine because they already get a boost to incoming heals thanks to Defiance if it comes down to it. So you're left with Conv/Shirk or Awareness/Shirk, depending on needs. But given that Shirk is super useful, there's no reason not to have it on your bar in an 8-man.

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Originally Posted by Taubaud

Because if you simply pay attention to the tank swap there is no need and more valuable choices.

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Please tell me a viable alternative to a skill that allows your tanks to stay in DPS stance the entire fight and never have to use an enmity combo (i.e. less potency combo)? Shirk definitely makes swaps easier, but that is not the skill's main value.

I was informed about tanks opening in dps stance with Shirk today. Sounds powerful. Where do I use it in say SusiEx? Straight away? Or a couple GCDs in? Hang on, are you saying MT pull, OT shirk then Provokes, then MT Shirk, so original MT that pulled is actually OT!? Am I overthinking this!?

MTs shouldn't have Shirk on their bar. There's 5 more important things actually useful for their job of survival.

OT can fit shirk in over Convalescence or Foresight.

NIN shadewalking + OT shirking is good enough if MT wants to pull in S.O. And on swaps a warr/DRK don't have to worry about losing aggro to a no-shirk PLD since there's no enmity in PLD combos anymore.

MT would have to go back to Shield Oath a minute after opener to keep aggro. But that's the point of MTing. You secure the run/clear and keep things as simple as possible for team (especially keep any (unnecessary) shirk-vokes out of things). And less dmg you take = less healers have to watch you = more DPS healers do. So evens out for the party either way.

I'm just talking about what I foresee in Savage content.

When I first heard of Shirk I thought it was laughable, I mean surely Tanks have been swapping for years just fine...

...but the more I tank EX fights, the less im laughing when we're both dps stance 90% of fight - especially as Warrior since stance dancing is trash now.

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Originally Posted by DrCynapsis

I was informed about tanks opening in dps stance with Shirk today. Sounds powerful. Where do I use it in say SusiEx? Straight away? Or a couple GCDs in? Hang on, are you saying MT pull, OT shirk then Provokes, then MT Shirk, so original MT that pulled is actually OT!? Am I overthinking this!?

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You still need a ninja with shadewalker to pull in dps stance without aggro combo. When I *tried* optimize in a susano ex run as pld I'd pull with goring blade (shadewalker on nin, smokescreen on brd, diversion on the other dps), pop sentinel and bulwark for the first assail and auto attacks, then around 30s into the fight the OT provokes the boss off me to take the second assail, and I'll shirk on him. After the big sword phase he'd take one stormsplitter before we do another tank swap, and that's where he'd shirk on me. For lakshmi It's quite similar, I open with goring blade, take one tank buster with sentinel + sheltron, the OT provokes to take the second tank buster, I'll shirk on him there, then provoke the boss off him after the tank buster.

I haven't tried pulling in dps stance without a ninja, but it might be risky even if you do an aggro combo at the start, since brd/mch don't have diversion, so without smokescreen they might overtake your aggro quickly.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

You secure the run/clear and keep things as simple as possible for team (especially keep any (unnecessary) shirk-vokes out of things). And less dmg you take = less healers have to watch you = more DPS healers do. So evens out for the party either way.

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During progression yeah, keeping it simple might help the group through mechanics or phases, but for content farming I'd say shirk isn't even complicated to use as long as there is communication (agree before pulling where you'd do tank swaps so the healers know too). The "turtle tanking = more healer dps" argument has been discussed for ages, and it's generally agreed on that in most cases (nearly every single ex trial and savage floor in 3.x, maybe excluding a8s), assuming the tanks and healers are competent enough, the extra healer dps afforded by tank stances' extra mitigation doesn't outweigh the dps loss from the dmg penalty of tank stances. Furthermore healers can still do respectable amount of dps even when the tanks are in dps stance most of the time. Of course, tank swaps to utilize both tanks' cds is important, so if your group is stuck in the "MT and OT" mentality your MT might struggle with mitigation without tank stance.

I personally take shirk as OT everytime because half of the time, i don't need much mitigation in that role.

For fights with swaps, I'll take it as MT or OT because that threat boost after provoke is ridiculous.

Yea, I'm not droppin into a random farm party tho and tryin to organize with the other tank and 2 healers when to do things lol. Not with the crap shoot ptf is when it comes to tanks. Remember KISS - keep it simple stupid.

IF you got a tank partner you know, and a competent healer, then sure add extra swaps to the run to stay in DPS stance more (wouldn't advise that for savage prog tho).

Edit: snip.

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Originally Posted by Quor

More valuable choices? Given that, in an 8-man, each tank should have Rampart, Provoke and Reprisal, this leaves two slots.

Anticipation? It's trash.
Conv? Maybe. That's one slot potentially.
Ultimatum? Also trash.
Interject? Useful in some situations, but 8-man's is not one of them.
Low blow? See interject.
Awareness? Nice for WAR to cheese RI with, but not 100% needed. Possible option, but not really.
Shirk? Loads of threat control; tanks don't need to be in tank stance to hold hate; tank swaps can be cemented without issue (no random aoe's directed to the wrong target).

So of the 7 available options, only Conv is anything that could be considered "must have." Awareness is ok for WAR and not so great for DRK or PLD, but a WAR could go Awareness/Shirk just fine because they already get a boost to incoming heals thanks to Defiance if it comes down to it. So you're left with Conv/Shirk or Awareness/Shirk, depending on needs. But given that Shirk is super useful, there's no reason not to have it on your bar in an 8-man.

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Awareness is great for both war and pld, in fact it is better for pld than it is for war.

Crits check before block and parry so if an enemy hit crits it will ignore block and parry even if you have 100% block or parry rate. You should always pair RI/bulwark with awareness. On pld this means more blocks for more shield swipes or for more gauge for more sheltron for more Holy Spirits in shield oath.

If you're also taking convalescence, reprisal, rampart and provoke that leaves you with no slots. So pretty much only DRK can afford shirk.

If you're playing with a static or another tank that you know, you can co-ordinate role skills, this is when shirk plays a bigger role, only one of you needs reprisal so one of you can take shirk for example. But when running with PUGs you have no idea what the other tank has set, you can try to co-ordinate with them but it's not worth the extra effort.

Because there are objectively better abilities.

A successful tank swap requires Provoke and a tiny amount of brain power to time your enmity skill with it. Shirk is redundant and a waste of a slot.

because tank swap is too easy with just provoke alone if both tank know what are they doing, and with the buff in potency of Flash/overpower/unlease recently it make shirk even more useless than before

i take rampart, provoke, reprisal, anticipation and convalescence as my role skil, even anticipation can only parry physical damage but it still more useful than shirk, as PLD i don't need low bow for stun, but will swap low bow for anticipation in dungeon which i need to stun monster when i play other 2 tank

I was in omega two days ago and mt did 3,1k+ dps. Shirk is really op skill if used correctly, you dont need tank stance or enmity combo if you know how to use shirk properly. We did not even have ninja in our party.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

A successful tank swap requires Provoke and a tiny amount of brain power to time your enmity skill with it. Shirk is redundant and a waste of a slot.

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because tank swap is too easy with just provoke alone if both tank know what are they doing, and with the buff in potency of Flash/overpower/unlease recently it make shirk even more useless than before

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Once both of you understand that shirk allows for not only aggro multiplication throughout the fight, but also allows you to tank swap without having to do an aggro combo (which no tank wants to do an aggro combo anymore for optimal dps), then you will understand the power of shirk. Embrace it.

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

because tank swap is too easy with just provoke alone if both tank know what are they doing, and with the buff in potency of Flash/overpower/unlease recently it make shirk even more useless than before

i take rampart, provoke, reprisal, anticipation and convalescence as my role skil, even anticipation can only parry physical damage but it still more useful than shirk, as PLD i don't need low bow for stun, but will swap low bow for anticipation in dungeon which i need to stun monster when i play other 2 tank

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Shirk is used to boost aggro, not "just" for tank swaps. I could hold aggro as pld without using a single halone in the entire susano fight, thanks to shirk and shadewalker. If that's not enough to convince people that shirk is good, then I don't know what is.

what i want to know is why you think this game's playerbase is even half willing to learn or even try to put some kind of effort into anything that isnt the absolute bare minimum.

I say we push Shirk to the point to where it IS the bare minimum (for 8 man content)

I'm curious as to what ability people are taking over Shirk. Honestly most of the alternatives aren't that great, there are maybe 2 abilities I would take ahead of it if I could only choose 1, but currently I don't see any reason not to have it.

My tank buddy always uses shirk and is also extremely confused at the number of tanks that don't use it. We've never encountered another tank in our Susano EX pug groups that will use it, even after he explains the benefits and how to use it. One guy even responded saying "I have shirk but if we tank swap correctly I shouldn't need to use it," and then proceeded to never swap out of shield oath for stormsplitter, making my friend's job much harder.

Most others we encounter just don't say anything and don't use the skill, unfortunately, and we've had issues where he provokes during the cast, but the other tank steals it back and dies.

If you are serious about pushing dps numbers on a tank role than shirk is too valuable to pass up. Personally I find that these five role actions are damn near mandatory for premade 8 man content ( Rampart, Convalesce, Provoke, Reprisal, Shirk)

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Originally Posted by Galkus

If you are serious about pushing dps numbers on a tank role than shirk is too valuable to pass up. Personally I find that these five role actions are damn near mandatory for premade 8 man content ( Rampart, Convalesce, Provoke, Reprisal, Shirk)

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As a WAR I am taking Awareness 100% of the time over Convalesce.

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

As a WAR I am taking Awareness 100% of the time over Convalesce.

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You should be taking awareness over shirk in 4 man content, where you can't really use shirk anyway, and awareness is more mandatory to use alongside raw intuition. In 8 man content though, where there's no large amount of adds to attack you from all side, shirk is a better pick over awareness. No reason to take out convolesence, a very useful ability, for any reason.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

You should be taking awareness over shirk in 4 man content, where you can't really use shirk anyway, and awareness is more mandatory to use alongside raw intuition.

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How often do you really have to use Raw Intuition anymore against more than a single target, though? Especially since Raw no longer provides stacks/meter like it used to?

I haven't encountered a use for it yet outside of mitigating tank busters.

Tanks never needed shirk before, why do they need it now? TBH it shouldve been a dps skill, whiist the exact oppositte shoulve been what shirk is

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

How often do you really have to use Raw Intuition anymore against more than a single target, though? Especially since Raw no longer provides stacks/meter like it used to?

I haven't encountered a use for it yet outside of mitigating tank busters.

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It's some alright mitigation against trash mobs, and I use it in susano ex when I'm tanking him before the third buster in dps stance.

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Tanks never needed shirk before, why do they need it now? TBH it shouldve been a dps skill, whiist the exact oppositte shoulve been what shirk is

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Again...completely missing the point. It's for maximing tank dps and multiplying aggro over the course of a fight, which in of itself is maximizing tank dps.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

It's some alright mitigation against trash mobs, and I use it in susano ex when I'm tanking him before the third buster in dps stance.

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Only if the mobs are attacking you from the front, which has always been the case. The thing that made Raw + Awareness useful in dungeon content beforehand was the fact that it provided stacks. I know I made liberal use of it for faster Storm Cyclones and Decimates, which helped with AoE damage on mobs.

Like I said, it doesn't seem to have much of a use anymore outside of mitigating tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Only if the mobs are attacking you from the front, which has always been the case. The thing that made Raw + Awareness useful in dungeon content beforehand was the fact that it provided stacks. I know I made liberal use of it for faster Storm Cyclones and Decimates, which helped with AoE damage on mobs.

Like I said, it doesn't seem to have much of a use anymore outside of mitigating tank busters.

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If you do big pulls, you will inevitably have some mobs hitting you from the side-hence where awareness still comes in use in dungeons, but not against trials/bosses. Sure it's not part of our dps rotation anymore, but no reason to not use it.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Tanks never needed shirk before, why do they need it now? TBH it shouldve been a dps skill, whiist the exact oppositte shoulve been what shirk is

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The average tank player, which is probably the majority of the tank population, will probably never need to use it. I guess it's mostly for those tanks that want to stay out of tank stance and push content. It's also most likely used in more coordinated groups like statics.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

If you do big pulls, you will inevitably have some mobs hitting you from the side-hence where awareness still comes in use in dungeons, but not against trials/bosses. Sure it's not part of our dps rotation anymore, but no reason to not use it.

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And that 100% parry chance only applies to when you're being smacked from the front, which makes using it pretty much useless in a big pull when you can just as easily use Vengeance, Rampart, and Thrill of Battle for mitigation and sustainability.

You're not wrong that Shirk is, essentially, useless in regular dungeon content, but I'd assume folks don't want to have to constantly open up that Skill tab just to swap Shirk and Awareness depending on which content they're doing and on their choice of Role Actions.

Of course, having both at the same time eliminates this issue, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

And that 100% parry chance only applies to when you're being smacked from the front, which makes using it pretty much useless in a big pull when you can just as easily use Vengeance, Rampart, and Thrill of Battle for mitigation and sustainability.

You're not wrong that Shirk is, essentially, useless in regular dungeon content, but I'd assume folks don't want to have to constantly open up that Skill tab just to swap Shirk and Awareness depending on which content they're doing and on their choice of Role Actions.

Of course, having both at the same time eliminates this issue, I suppose.

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What I'm saying is-raw intuition is a free cd you can use in dungeons to decent effect on trash mobs. But you need awareness to make good use of it-so swap awareness out for shirk, since you won't need shirk in dungeons.

My solution is just to not play war in dungeons lmao, pretty much only play drk in dungeons now and then war for my static. Though I know a lot of my healer friends just use a macro to swap out protect for something else after they've applied it at the start of a dungeon, so that could be a solution.

So normally during Susano, after you tank swap, you don't really need to use a cooldown. But it's not like you're gonna do anything with them for the next two minutes or so, so you might as well pop one to help out your healers. But which one should you use?

If you end up having to keep switching sides, obviously you won't want to use Raw Intuition. But if it's the marked players that have to move, you'll literally be standing there for the next 20 seconds. This is an example of a perfect situation for Raw Intuition, without having to bother with Awareness.

Between Vengeance, Thrill of Battle, Rampart and Raw Intuition, you can basically choose the right moment to use each one. If you play your cards properly, and save Raw Intuition only for those times when you know you won't be moving much, you don't have to bring Awareness.

That said, regardless of how AMAZING everyone says Shirk is, it's not required. I mean, maybe if you want to be one of those players who is obsessed about SQUEEZING every last point of DPS down to the very decimal, then you'll be worried about tank swapping without using your enmity generator.

But FFS, you don't even need to be in tank stance! Just use Provoke, ONE round of your enmity generator, and unless the other tank is in tank stance or uses their generator as well, you'll be just fine.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

What I'm saying is-raw intuition is a free cd you can use in dungeons to decent effect on trash mobs. But you need awareness to make good use of it-so swap awareness out for shirk, since you won't need shirk in dungeons.

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I understand perfectly well the purpose of using Raw Intuition and Awareness together. What I'm arguing is that Raw Intuition was more useful when it provided stacks because that frontal parry + negation of incoming crits, while still providing mitigation, was not nearly as reliable, especially in the big pull scenario you mentioned in which you'll have mobs on all sides of you.

I'm also aware of your solution. My point is, as I've said, that people most likely aren't going to want to constantly swap Shirk and Awareness for one another depending on which content they're doing as it is much more convenient to leave things as they are no matter what you're running.