HP inflation?

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We've received requests for damage calculations to be made VIT-based again, like they were during the 3.X patch series. As VIT also influences HP, however, adjusting it is liable to lead to HP inflation, and so we have no plan to adopt this method at present. (VIT-based damage was deemed workable during 3.X and was employed in the interim.)

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What the hell kind of excuse is this to not scale us off VIT? We can only wear 1 set of accessories, VIT is the only thing we have access to, HP is going to inflate regardless of if it effects damage since we don't have access to STR accs... if this is the concern then lower the VIT cap on fending accs but also add STR onto them.

I think it means in order for them to increase our damage if it's scaled to vit, is to inflate our HP and possibly give lead to them giving us way more than they intended.

Our DPS scaling with VIT has nothing to do with our HP. Yoshi's post makes no logical sense whatsoever. In 3.2-3.5 it scaled at 45%. Before/after it scaled at 0%. Our HP scaling didn't change at all. Its clear they can scale it however they please. They just won't.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

I think it means in order for them to increase our damage if it's scaled to vit, is to inflate our HP and possibly give lead to them giving us way more than they intended.

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Then all they would need to do is change the scaling. So I find that hard to believe as well.

Idfk im not a mind reader, just my interpretation. Christ sakes

if they give tank too much damage what make you think player will not go 6 tank 2 healers? because warrior nearly took over dps back in 3.0

what does hp inflation got to do with any of it? This is a logical fix, given what they decided to address/force tanks to do. Are they gonna address DPS inflation with the right side gear of dps and healers? Thats a very silly argument. There has to be scaling, just to continue to be where youre at in relation to the other 2 roles, it doesnt make sense at all why, hp inflation(rememeber 3,2 tank fix cause da tanks dint have enough da hp to heal and was making the people cry) so i guess just let tanks wear str accessories again? boom no more hp inflation, and we've finally gone back to 3.0 in a complete circle.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if they give tank too much damage what make you think player will not go 6 tank 2 healers? because warrior nearly took over dps back in 3.0

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no more hour+ dps queues? that sounds awful.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

I think it means in order for them to increase our damage if it's scaled to vit, is to inflate our HP and possibly give lead to them giving us way more than they intended.

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if you have a tank, wearing vit accessories, look at your vitality vs attack power, a 1:1 scaling of vit would inflate the dps more than the hp, honestly. Hp inflation keeps happening cause you get alot more of it on your gear, esp including right hand side anyway - But youre only allowed to wear VIT accessories after level 60... The inflation of hp? Im getting dizzy

Unless they intended for us to wear 270 STR accs for the rest of time, attack power scaling has nothing to do with HP inflation, if we wear VIT accs of increasing ilvl as we are supposed to our HP is going to increase regardless of our attack power.

I'm sure they just want to be able to balance dps output and incoming damage seperately. It makes for easier balancing adjustments when increasing tank dps output doesn't in turn increase incoming damage to all other non-tank classes, or increase tank hp in relation to the incoming damage.

It makes sense, but the way they're handling accessories does not.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if they give tank too much damage what make you think player will not go 6 tank 2 healers? because warrior nearly took over dps back in 3.0

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The only dps jobs they came close to were BRD and MCH, both of which contributed far more to raid dps than WAR did.

.......increasing enmity every patch is more work than just scaling enmity/attack power with a stat that increases with an i level jump. I give up

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

no more hour+ dps queues? that sounds awful.

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and then you will go back to the same issue with reverse which is over population of tank and short of dps because dps is not doing enough dps to justify to be squishy getting 1~2 hit and death, because why bring a job that dies in 2 hit when you can have a job that survive almost any mechanic with poor performance and still make the cut the entire fight will end up been a joke!

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if they give tank too much damage what make you think player will not go 6 tank 2 healers? because warrior nearly took over dps back in 3.0

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I hate this argument. If the dps was even half way competent there was no way a DPS war was out parsing them plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Cevoh

I hate this argument. If the dps was even half way competent there was no way a DPS war was out parsing them plain and simple.

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if warrior was what it was on 3.x and they are wearing i320 str accessory you will see a 3.8k warrior

Yet the add tenacity an the Stat is broken, nobody has say anything about that, the Stat has no weight at all.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if warrior was what it was on 3.x and they are wearing i320 str accessory you will see a 3.8k warrior

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War only came close to brd/mch without drg in 3.0-3.1, and those jobs brought more raid dps utilities than war, they had hypercharge, battle voice foe requiem, mp/tp refresh which were crucial in some fights during downtimes.

Edit: Also in case you didn't know, war's dps wasn't even that much higher than drk in single target. Take the fastest a9s-a12s clears, in most cases they're really close together. In fact, in a9s drk should do more than war thanks to salted earth and dark passenger's aoe on the adds. Paladin was the only one left behind by a relatively wider margin.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

if they give tank too much damage what make you think player will not go 6 tank 2 healers? because warrior nearly took over dps back in 3.0

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Well then you're full of crap. Because if a DPS was doing so little damage that a WAR could almost overtake them then they were seriously doing a shitty job. Any DPS actually doing their job right could more than vastly exceed whatever a WAR could put out.

Adjust tenacity to actually be useful, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

Idfk im not a mind reader, just my interpretation. Christ sakes

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For your own sanity I urge you to not look deeper into his words, they are a trap luring you to the dept of chaos where unspeakable creatures lurk.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

I think it means in order for them to increase our damage if it's scaled to vit, is to inflate our HP and possibly give lead to them giving us way more than they intended.

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No, it means that they would be forced to inflate enemy Hp values as tanks would provide more dps.

If they dont want our HP inflating they should just change fending accessories to always have Tenacity/STR, no VIT.

Not like we ever had a choice to add VIT before.
(And nor does it mean they need to make VIT scale equally to what they add to STR/DEX/INT/MND in DPS, either just add STR by default, or make the % of what VIT gives different than 1:1. Heck 1 VIT could be 2 attack power, as broken as that is, and it would stop you from making gear with too much VIT real quick.)

The Ffxiv dev team are idiots. They made a useless stat, took away class utility, tried to widen the skill gap of players but tried not to make it noticeable. Then they made things hit harder and made us use old gear. NOW they wanna say that they don't want hp inflation, which is okay, only when it should have been tested first ! IDIOTS.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, it means that they would be forced to inflate enemy Hp values as tanks would provide more dps.

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I was like, "Am I the only one who thinks that's what they meant?" when I see peoples' reaction, but apparently, I'm not the only one. So either we're a very small minority who's right, or a very small minority who's wrong.

To people saying that Tenacity is worthless: stop spreading misinformation. The "1% per 1000 points" was debunked.
It's not optimal in terms of damage, but it's not bad either. It might even see use in progression.

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In regards to "HP inflation", I think they just don't want having to deal with scaling. They want the stat to be at 1, and not 0.45 or 0.90 kind of weird stuff. Having Attack Power coming from VIT means that Attack Power and HP are controled by one stat only, hence different stat weight.
It's just more simple to adjust Attack Power (without touching HP pools) with STR than having to fiddle with scaling on only one stat.

At least that's my take on their explanation.

Yoshi and SE, I respect you and all, but you do the dumbest shit sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, it means that they would be forced to inflate enemy Hp values as tanks would provide more dps.

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I doubt that's what he meant at all. Given what Yoshi-P specifically said in his post was:

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Lastly, players have expressed concern that enmity is difficult to sustain. Some have taken to using ilv 270 STR accessories to address the issue, and numerous measures have been put forth. We've received requests for damage calculations to be made VIT-based again, like they were during the 3.X patch series. As VIT also influences HP, however, adjusting it is liable to lead to HP inflation, and so we have no plan to adopt this method at present.

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He's definitely speaking purely of VIT in regards to it's influence on player HP. Given prior to the point about HP inflation he's talking about enmity and how they've gotten requests to return damage calculations for Tanks to how they were before. So he's clearly referring to players with that before moving into his "HP inflation" comment. Which makes it extremely doubtful that he's referring to monsters at all with that comment.

I'm confused. They don't want to inflate our hp, but we can only wear vit gear. We can't possibly over inflate it because it's the only gear we have access to. Does that mean tank gear is no longer relevant, because they won't increase vit? And if they are still going to add vit to new gear is over inflation still a concern? Is tank gear just for ilvl req. and glamour now?

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I'm confused. They don't want to inflate our hp, but we can only wear vit gear. We can't possibly over inflate it because it's the only gear we have access to. Does that mean tank gear is no longer relevant, because they won't increase vit? And if they are still going to add vit to new gear is over inflation still a concern? Is tank gear just for ilvl req. and glamour now?

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What I believe that quote is referring to is that they would have a much more difficult time scaling content if vitality was still giving out AP. They have to tune incoming boss damage along with the DPS in order to down the fight. Let's say that for a boss they assume tanks need 50,000 HP in order to feel "safe" and 5000 DPS to meet the enrage. Because of the high vit from the right side, it may be difficult not to give tanks "too much" DPS while also meeting the HP check. As a result, they would constantly have to play with the AP formula to not go overboard every patch.

1) Assuming we're wearing Tank accessories, there's literally no way we can get more Vitality/HP bc we can't even meld it bc it's capped.

2) It really is more effort to increase enmity every tier of gear rather than just have damage scale a little more evenly, i.e. vit-damage

3) [Re: 3.X WAR too strong] WAR did mainly burst damage, but aside from that WARs entire theme/gimmick was that it hit harder to do more self-sustain and maintain enmity whereas PLD simply took less damage in general and had way more defensive CDs. Even when OTing as WAR, I'd have to slow down to keep from ripping boss hate off (usually undergeared but insistent) MT while I was in Deliverance. Yes cutting it down is fine but the levels that they've cut it down to have left many WARs scrambling to perform actual tanking in 4-man content. 50 dungeons leave me with even less TP than before and less enmity.

4) We can have scaled-down vit-damage. It's not going to out-do the DPS or break the game. We're literally having enmity problems to the point that our enmity modifiers have been buffed so soon after the initial buff in SB.

5) 1000-Tenacity per point, whether debunked or not, doesn't feel too off the mark. Running the numbers, tenacity does nothing for any aspect I'm dealing with, especially healing received.

6) Surprise surprise not all tanks who want higher damage want it for the mad DPS numbers. I'm of the tankiest of tanks mentality where I have a job and I'm going to focus on that job, but I need adequate damage to do it. Spamming Flash until my MP drains out is not only bad form in single pulls in dungeons, but isn't going to save me from the RDM or BLM with a Balance or Arrow even when using their enmity reducers. Not only that, dungeons are gear capped. I'm about to hit end-story content where the DPS who are further in gear than me are going to have a far higher margin of enmity between me and them vs me and dungeon-capped DPS. AKA: Antitower Tank Problems all over again.

So our dps, no longer matters? Back to 1-2-3 flash? Fight or flight, sword oath, sprits within, total eclipse, goring blade, royal authority, Holy Spirit, and requiescat are just fluff? Why did they even give them to us if we're not suppose to do damage? Ot? Turn off shield oath and spam riot blade. Hahaha so after 4 years we are right back to 2.0 pld, "best expansion so far"...too funny.

Why do people want to be scaled off of VIT? it's a dumb band aid fix that's the exact same as just gearing for STR in the first place. The end result is you get dmg off your accessories... may as well just let tanks gear for STR and balance around that in the first place.

Either they make mobs hit harder because you have more health or you just have STR, not extra health in which case they tune mob damage lower since your health pool is lower. it's the same thing, personally I think gearing for STR is the more elegant of the two solutions. Prove me wrong.

As I saw the post from Yoshi and made no sense, all the changes made to accs and attribute distribution showed their intention to force their HP meta, I was even expecting the mobs to hit like a truck.
Now they come with this "HP inflation" concern? Retweaking numbers after the expansion release can end up really frustrating for the player base in general.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Prove me wrong.

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All the new Omega accessories you'd like to be grinding for to get ready for savage raid? Trash.

VIT is a tanks "main stat" according to the accessories. They are asking for AP to scale off our main stat - which isn't a ludicrous request. The fact that it looks like people will be wearing last expansions accessories is quite ludicrous, don't you think?

If AP scaled of Dex you'd be gearing for Dex - it doesn't matter whether it's str or vit or whatever tf, you'd be gearing for it and calling it bis. "str is more elegant" - no it's just the only other option you have.

They gave some really bad responses to player concerns, on multiple subjects.

I'm not sure why HP is considered to be a "primary stat" while MP very clearly is not. It's not like healer accessories boost Piety instead of Mind.

If you want players to be at specific HP or MP threshold for safety reasons, then build it into the gear independent of damage stats. Every other role in the game, including healers, has their main damage stat built into both left and right side pieces. At the moment, tanks use STR as their main damage stat, and healers use MND. If you're going to put MND on healer accessories, then you probably should put STR on tank ones.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

To people saying that Tenacity is worthless: stop spreading misinformation. The "1% per 1000 points" was debunked.
It's not optimal in terms of damage, but it's not bad either. It might even see use in progression.

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Do you have a reference for this? I've been trying to figure out melds for tank gear to prepare for Omega Savage and everything I found suggested Tenacity was useless and Direct Hit was the way to go.

The best solution at this point would be to just add STR to tank accessories. Even if it's only 50% of the VIT value, it would still immediately make the 270 slaying accessories inferior. Most good tanks are fine with doing less damage but are more annoyed than anything that 270 slaying are currently BiS.

They will do something I'm sure of it. They've already increased some enmity modifiers but admitted that it's a temporary fix. Anyway, it's not something they can just keep doing as the attack power gap between tanks and dps gets continously wider with more gear.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

The best solution at this point would be to just add STR to tank accessories. Even if it's only 50% of the VIT value, it would still immediately make the 270 slaying accessories inferior. Most good tanks are fine with doing less damage but are more annoyed than anything that 270 slaying are currently BiS.

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Most tanks in general. I haven't seen one post where a tank is demanding dps role numbers. We would like our right side to matter though. I don't want s/e to hold my hand and increase threat for me, I'd like to do it myself. I would be completely fine with doing less dps if tenacity made mitigation so great that I could tank in sword oath. That would be a noticeable sign of personal progression instead of just looking at how high I can get my hp numbers.

Yeah...what? Tank gear already has high vit on everything, so what's this about HP inflation?

It honestly worries me to read a response like this from the developers. I feel the changes they made and their reactions to criticisms both show a lack of thought, which in a game where they show us just how much though they have (and its huge, to be clear, I love FFXIV) is really strange.


A tank primarily hits buttons to hit an enemy in combat, as such they *want* to do damage. Limiting our contribution to damage to being minimal makes the job not fun or engaging to play, which is bad for a game that has such a high tank to no tank discrepancy that FFXIV has (more than any other mmo ive ever played, swtor/wow/tera/AoC/Warhammer/etc). No one says they should top meters but that isn't the case anyways, and even in 3.x the only time a tank was beating dps was due to gear and skill discrepancies--which is fine.

The easy solution is to use the 3.5 damage calculations. It ensured that tanks 'wanted' tank gear, where before that any tank went with slaying or similar because the truth is we don't *need* that extra hp, if you understand your class and the healer is not brain dead, than FFXIV works around damage 'mechanics' which you can mitigate down to being negligible. The only time health otherwise makes a difference is to cover for errors, which are only important while learning a fight. After mastering mechanics more dps results in shorter encounters, less strain on mana for healers, less chances for things to 'go wrong'. Offense is effectively a defense as long as you can comfortably survive the stressful mechanics.

So yeah in the end, HP Inflation as a statement made zero sense. Every new set of gear increases our health, and we have no choices around that. So what exactly is being inflated and why would having vit contribute to AP cause it to inflate more? You cant use slaying pieces, so melding vit is basically non existent.