WHM Divine Benison

Hello! I wanted to discuss some abilities with whm's and specifically their Lillies mechanic.

I feel that for a job that was given a whole new mechanic the Lillies should do more than just hasten cd's. Whm's have Divine Benison, an ability locked behind Lillies that grants a shield (new stoneskin). Why do we expend Lillies to use Divine Benison without any sort of cool mechanic like Planery Indulgence/confession?

Why doesn't Divine Benison for example give:
1 Lillies 15% shield
2 Lillies 20% shield
3 Lillies 25% shield

I personally think this would make the Lillies a little bit more engaging then just an ability haste.

Or make Divine Benison ONLY cost 1 lillies and not ALL if you got 3 lillies and rarther spend 2/3 lillies on Assize/tetra.

Full disclosure, I really like the design of this skill.

First things first, 3 lilies being used on any skill is kinda meh, so I wouldn't worry too much atm about wasting 2-3 lilies on DB, provided you needed DB.

But onto the cost rational:
In my opinion, the lily cost is there solely to make skill order matter and DB is one of the only good designs within the lily system. On many tank busters, DB isn't "needed" and there isn't much wrong with spending your lilies on a tetra instead.
During a periods where HPS is needed, like a big dungeon pull or what have you, you may want DB or some other cooldown depending what cooldowns are available and how many lilies you have. IMO, this is a good thing for WHM and makes the class more interesting.

I just REALLY hate how everything with the build is pure rng.....rng to get free cure 2, rngto get lilies, rng to get the level 70 buff on a player.

Honestly, (and i am not running ex's yet) i do not care about faster cool downs. I do hate how you use up all three lilies on DB,. I would much prefer to use the lilies (one per) on a party member to add the level 70 buff, then when needed, pop the heals across all three or 4 people, especially in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by winsock

IMO, this is a good thing for WHM and makes the class more interesting.

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I see what you mean! I still personally like the ability, I just felt that using all the Lillies flat out would be funner if there was a little more incentive to be at full stacks. By no means is the skill bad, whm got the good end of the stick with new abilities.

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Originally Posted by Sylvaneste

rngto get lilies

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100% is not RNG.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

100% is not RNG.

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...if you're willing to spend 1200 MP overhealing for it...

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Or make Divine Benison ONLY cost 1 lillies and not ALL if you got 3 lillies and rarther spend 2/3 lillies on Assize/tetra.

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Yes please! I don't get why Benison uses up all lillies.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

...if you're willing to spend 1200 MP overhealing for it...

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WHM don't have issue with mana...

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

WHM don't have issue with mana...

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doesn't mean I think it's good design.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

doesn't mean I think it's good design.

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I agree with this. It doesn't feel good to be rewarded for playing inefficiently; there are plenty of situations now where I know I don't need to use a Cure 2, but I'll throw it out there anyway just to pad my gauge for an upcoming CD or because I want to throw out a Benison.

Sure, we have the MP generation to support this, but deliberately overhealing like this runs counter to every WHM (and general healer) instinct instilled by the past few years of gameplay. If you aim for maximum efficiency, you'll see many fewer Lilies than someone who leverages Cure 2 to work the new system.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

...if you're willing to spend 1200 MP overhealing for it...

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Uh, what? I'm not defending the lillies. All I'm saying is that 100% proc rate on Cure II != RNG.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I agree with this. It doesn't feel good to be rewarded for playing inefficiently; there are plenty of situations now where I know I don't need to use a Cure 2, but I'll throw it out there anyway just to pad my gauge for an upcoming CD or because I want to throw out a Benison.

Sure, we have the MP generation to support this, but deliberately overhealing like this runs counter to every WHM (and general healer) instinct instilled by the past few years of gameplay. If you aim for maximum efficiency, you'll see many fewer Lilies than someone who leverages Cure 2 to work the new system.

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Bingo.

We've spent years playing as efficiently as possible due to WHM's atrocious resource management before, so while it may not affect us as much now, it pains me to do so.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

...if you're willing to spend 1200 MP overhealing for it...

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why overheal then? just use cure 2 and slap a benison after using it every time you need to however sporadic it is. the cooldown reduction aspect isnt that impactful anyways but get this: whm's gauge is literally the only beneficial gauge healers have. scholar's gauge is just a marker for how many aetherflow stacks you have (useless) and the fairy gauge is tied to 1 action so it might as well just be considered part of aetherpact. ast's gauge is straight up detrimental to the job compared to the old buff system for cards. i really dont see what the big deal is

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Originally Posted by QooEr

why overheal then? just use cure 2 and slap a benison after using it every time you need to however sporadic it is. the cooldown reduction aspect isnt that impactful anyways but get this: whm's gauge is literally the only beneficial gauge healers have. scholar's gauge is just a marker for how many aetherflow stacks you have (useless) and the fairy gauge is tied to 1 action so it might as well just be considered part of aetherpact. ast's gauge is straight up detrimental to the job compared to the old buff system for cards. i really dont see what the big deal is

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Cure => Not overheal but only 50% chance of lily.
Cure II => Overheal but always lily.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Cure => Not overheal but only 50% chance of lily.
Cure II => Overheal but always lily.

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how is cure 2 an overheal? just cast the heal when the tank is at lower hp. mp management isnt even an issue anymore and casting less heals allows for more healer dps. i rarely ever use regular cure anymore

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Cure => Not overheal but only 50% chance of lily.
Cure II => Overheal but always lily.

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That's why I don't use benediction, it overheal too much

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Originally Posted by QooEr

just cast the heal when the tank is at lower hp

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Shhhhh, It's a secret.

Uh, being a low recast on Benison just means everytime you'll use Cure spells to heal effectively and get a lilly it will be ready there as an extra (and a strong one). Why would you need/want to overheal for it?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

how is cure 2 an overheal? just cast the heal when the tank is at lower hp. mp management isnt even an issue anymore and casting less heals allows for more healer dps. i rarely ever use regular cure anymore

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Because the times when you would normally use Cure 2 don't always coincide with when you want to stack Lilies.

Under most circumstances, Cure and various regens and oGCD abilities are actually sufficient, maybe with occasional Cure 2; however, you may not see very many Lilies this way, and/or you may not have them when you want them.

Since MP regen supports it, you are rewarded more consistently for using Cure 2 even when it's not strictly necessary. Deliberately letting the tank's HP to drop dramatically so that you can be restoring more actual HP with Cure 2 is basically the same idea except that you still might not get Lilies exactly when you want them. E.g. If you've spent your Lilies and have a tankbuster coming up soon for which you want to apply Benison, you're going to find something to hit with Cure 2 regardless of whether or not they actually need it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Because the times when you would normally use Cure 2 don't always coincide with when you want to stack Lilies.

Under most circumstances, Cure and various regens and oGCD abilities are actually sufficient, maybe with occasional Cure 2; however, you may not see very many Lilies this way, and/or you may not have them when you want them.

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this is exactly my point. you dont *ever* want to stack lilies for the sake of stacking them. lilies arent ever needed except for benison, so i pop benison right away on that occasional cure 2 since the lily will eventually get eaten by assize or tetra or asylum soon after. that way i have to heal even less, which lets me dps even more. besides, using benison only as a shield for tankbusters is unoptimal; even if you use cure 2 and benison AFTER a tankbuster, benison still works since its going to be eaten by autoattacks, so benison in itself is really more of a "heal" for 15% of the tank's hp.


bottom line is because cure 2 gives you a lily all the time, you can benison right after it and its a result similar to landing a critical hit on that cure 2. since cure 2 is not frequently casted, benison is usually up by the time you cast it again, which means its like youre critting every single cure 2 you use.

Overhealing has got to be the most overrated "bad" term in the healing Dictionary. There's absolutely nothing inherently bad about overhealing.
The issues only arise in one of two cases:
- You overheal when you don't have the mana (old whm gameplay or current WHM when you've just been rezed and all your mana management skills are on cooldown)
- You could use that gcd to optimize your play and dps instead.

Appart from those it's actually beneficial to overheal. Now in FFXIV that second point often takes precedence in class optimisation so it isn't as obvious. But just to illustrate this point, picture an encounter where you do not dps. Finishing such a fight with 30% mana vs finishing it with 10% mana but constant overhealing.. The later is clearly better, even if it's just a matter of comfort.

To rebound on what has been said. Casting Cure II instead of Cure I does not hit either of those drawbacks. So it's a perfect example of how overhealing is good. Not to mention that you actually get the overheal back in the form of benison for later use. It's just win win.

I will however agree that this is a bit of a dick move because it goes against all the whm gameplay optimizations that had been done by players up until now.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

you dont *ever* want to stack lilies for the sake of stacking them.

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My point is, with MP being a virtual non-issue, you are now playing sub-optimally if you don't find excuses to use Cure 2, and for many WHM players this is a strange and counterintuitive notion.

Sure, no one is forced to make use of Lilies, but that's not what we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

it's actually beneficial to overheal.

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I can't believe I had to read this sentence with my own two eyes

I'd like to think WHM play has gotten a lot less straight forward and individual White Mages will need to think more on their feet about what's optimal while continuing to understand the flow of the fight to maximize efficiency.

Cure now has a chance to proc three things
(1) Freecure
(2) Lily [Divine Benison]
(3) Confession

If you get Freecure, that gives the WHM more windows to DPS and then use their Freecure proc a bit later than normal or when it's about to expire and on top of that get them a Lily for Divine Benison immediately afterwards.
If you get the Lily just pop Divine Benison and keep DPSing
If you get the confession treat it like another free Cure and pop it appropriately while you keep DPSing

I feel it's non-optimal to save Benison for tankbusters. If the opportunity presents itself to allow you to shield a tank buster, go for it but having the ability to use Divine Benison and not doing so is just neglecting another excellent source of free healing from the WHM kit.

While I won't disagree that it would be nice for Benison to have additional benefits past one lily or only consume one lily, making good use of Benison doesn't require a White Mage to play non-optimally or ineffectively if the player understands the flow of the fight and the nuances of how their abilities interact with each other.

Ghishlain, good points as always, but I'd emphasize the chance part when it comes to Cure I procs.

Personally I think Benison is fine aside from consuming all Lilies without so much as a CD reduction; my concerns have more to do with how Lily generation currently works and how it disproportionately rewards Cure 2 usage.

I consider it in a different way - the 100% chance on Cure II means I get even more benefit out of my Freecures. I think it's important for White Mages of all stripes to consider the fact that you're not actively fishing for lilies but you should make opportunities to use Cure more often - especially now that Cleric Stance has gone the way of the dodo. Spend one GCD to DPS, while you're casting determine if your next GCD should be a Cure, make use of Cure when the HP windows are appropriate to minimize overheal and use any gained procs appropriately in your next decision making step. The chance part doesn't personally bug me in the slightest, to be honest. It just means I have to show a level of flexibility to adapt to the situations given to me. Given the rigidity of the healing game to date (make sure to save X CD for Y tank/raid buster, repeat ad nausea), this chance to flex in such a manner is a breath of fresh air for healing.

I feel a lot of players get hung up on the "chance" part of the Lilies and it just shows a incredibly massive level if inflexibility towards the White Mage kit. I will argue that White Mages might have a low skill floor because you could easily be effective without worrying about the RNG aspects of your kit but also has the highest skill ceiling now because of the level of knowledge the player must have of both the fight and the kit to properly manage all the RNG procs without losing effectiveness or efficiency. WHM is the healer to play if you don't want to repeat the same fight over and over again. Regardless if the encounter is the same the flow at which the WHM kit operates will always change.

I actually kinda wish 3.X MCH was still a thing. If the opportunity presented itself, I would've actively encouraged any aspiring Stormblood White Mage to play the 3.X MCH toolkit because the core optimization concepts of the MCH kit is the same. In fact when I reflect on, the fact that I played MCH for Creator (Savage) and deal with the RNG proc rates and mobility issues that come with it probably help me optimize for WHM even further.

Ghislain: always a breathe of fresh air. Everything you said I agree with completely.

No people are hung up on the fact that in dungeons and even in savage content a WHM may only use Cure I and Cure II a single digit amount of times because so much healing comes from Regen, Medica II, and OGCDs. Everything about WHM could be fixed right now with two simple changes:

-Divine Benison only uses one Lily. Its absolutely terrible design for it to need one, yet consume up to three for no benefit.
-Regen ticks have a 10% and 20% chance to create a Lily and Confession respectively.

If you're at a ilvl and skill level where you can get away with using a single digit number of cures in dungeons and savage mode, you and your party is probably well overgeared past the content anyway and don't need those additional tools to assist. Just DPS harder and enjoy the massive MP sustain the kit gives you at that point~

I won't dispute more ways to proc Lilies and Confessions would be nice, and the change to Divine Benison would be a good QoL but if it never happens I'd still be very satisfied with the kit. But my beef with the WHM community as a whole ATM is the absolute salt that's being laid about how unplayable the job is suppose to be when... the job has immense amounts of longevity in MP and can provide more throughput than any other healer in the game right now and provide tons of wipe recovery potential. It's not a dead job.

exactly my thoughts. whm is far from dead, and the current state of all the healing skills is pretty nice (except for plenary indulgence, they really should increase that proc). and aside from healing, whm's dps is so high that it can compensate for its lack or "utility" (versus scholar's strategem. if the party's dps is low, strategem is less impactful)

I will admit that at forst I did add to that salt, but now? I actually really like how WHM plays... beside PI.

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Originally Posted by KikodeYusaku

I can't believe I had to read this sentence with my own two eyes

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I can't tell if this is a statement against my argument or the current state of WHM. Also a little taken out of context ;p
But yeah, given infinite mana you should always use your most potent skills. Regardless of overhealing. Use cure II instead of cure I. Even if Cure I is already overheal, and regardless of Cure II procs. Not doing so just wouldn't make any sense. Your overhealing might clip a mechanic or a player mistake.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Use cure II instead of cure I. Even if Cure I is already overheal, and regardless of Cure II procs. Not doing so just wouldn't make any sense.

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If you are already overhealing with cure I, don't heal and dps ! But yeah, I understand your point.

My main prob is PI atm. I'm still not used to it and I forget about it while healing :mad:

I think healer is all about managing resources as efficient as possible while responding adequately to any situation. This mean using the right spells at the right time without any overhealing and lilies gauge do not complement this kind of playstyle which i think is the major reason why some people are complaining right now.

I actually seem to get pretty decent use out of the lilies during dungeons, it's a little quirky but I try to rotate 3 slightly different approaches for trash pulls depending on my cooldowns and the size of the pack. If Assize is about to pop I'll actively fish for lilies with cure 2 healing rather than using Tetra/Asylum etc. Once Assize is done, then I go back to focusing on healing only with the oGCDs. And of course I try to keep Thin Air/PoM on cooldown and ideally aligned with the larger pulls and packs for maximum holy spam.

Using this approach I can merrily push 3K dps leading up to the first boss in Doma Castle without big pulls. Gathering the first 3 packs into one sees me at 4k+. Assize is a whopping amount of damage on larger trash pulls and it can really pay off to leverage those lilies to get more value out of it. In the Expert dungeons I'm generally averaging 2.5k at the end of the dungeon.

Ironically though, I pretty much ignore the lilies in 8 man content so far, the primals just didn't need enough tank healing to have any points where you could realistically aim for 3 a lily assize without being hugely time and mp inefficient. The Omega bosses are a little better in this regard but still, the value just isn't there in my eyes.