Suggestion: Give SCH an aoe heal (Medicia/Helios)

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Indominability + Employment Tactics Succor is usually enough with a co-healer and if you need more than that your group is doomed anyways.

Scholar has 2 AOE heals (?)

It's really the least of Scholar's needs right now.

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Originally Posted by Esrain

Whenever The Royal Menagerie shows up in trial roulette, i'd rather take the 30 min penalty and leave asap.

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... or you could - I don't know - teach them the fight so they can finish the story.
You're not meant to heal through tremendous raid-wide mistakes. Teach people mechanics and they'll eat for a lifetime.

The tricky part to SCH's AOE healing is you really have to have the timing down. You can't pop indom/et too early nor when unneeded, as (unlike helios/medica) you can't simply spam them if you mess up. That said, between those and rouse+wd, I've found the AOE healing to be sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The tricky part to SCH's AOE healing is you really have to have the timing down. You can't pop indom/et too early nor when unneeded, as (unlike helios/medica) you can't simply spam them if you mess up. That said, between those and rouse+wd, I've found the AOE healing to be sufficient.

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... and I only speak for myself, but timing [along with memorizing enemy rotations] is part of what has always made Scholar more tactical and more fun.
You have to know when to shield, and time your heals accordingly. You used to have to weave your Cleric Stance in and out.
You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. Well, maybe that's more Astrologian.

Astro in general is taking over the more "tactical" healer spot which is a bummer because Scholar by lore alone should be the tactician.
Astro should defy fate!

Don't need it. We have far greater issues to tackle, such as buffing back embrace as the change to cleric stance lowers the relative sustain to the other healers.
Excogitation needs to be better as its rival, Lustrate, can be used in place of it in almost every situation.
Dissipation works contrary to the Fairy Gauge.
Fey Union has a weak potency unless a bug is exploited. Also it's range sucks and the gauge takes too long to build up for what it gives you.
AoE is garbage.
And Succor and Adloquium cost far too much for no real reason.

You have Whispering Wind, Succor, Indom, ET Succor, Adlo DT.....5 is enough AOE healing I think.

I don't think this is needed even as much as WHM needs some kind of shield (pre-Benison). I solo healed on SCH for my group pre-SB and find it decent, but the real problems are in other areas now - SCH has needed some serious help elsewhere since SB launched (which should in turn alleviate the problems you're experiencing when the other issues are properly addressed).

And AST just has everything right now.

Scholar don't need for aoe indeed.
However yes... Scholar have less aoe recovery if your coheal dies and people fail mechanics.
So with people making mistakes, ast and whm can save it easier (in aoe situation).

I won't add anything else, everyone just already said what scholar has to heal.
Considering his job is to prevent damages, he was not meant to have high raw heal.
They gave him some tool for that in HW with Indom and Emergency tactics however so that he could have a little more impact in raw aoe healing, but it is enough.

While I agree with almost everyone about the aoe healing, I do think they need to review some things on SCH. I mean, Dissipation for example is the kind of skill I think I've only used 5 times as a big panic button to have extra aetherflow since HW was released. Almost everything else in our job screams STAY WITH THE FAIRY ON.

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Originally Posted by eikomakimachi

While I agree with almost everyone about the aoe healing, I do think they need to review some things on SCH. I mean, Dissipation for example is the kind of skill I think I've only used 5 times as a big panic button to have extra aetherflow since HW was released. Almost everything else in our job screams STAY WITH THE FAIRY ON.

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Dissipation is very situational at best but SE loves to give SCH barely used, situational skills, so it's not changing any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Dissipation is very situational at best but SE loves to give SCH barely used, situational skills, so it's not changing any time soon.

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It may have to depending on how well we perform in the Omega raids. If we have a hard time keeping up, we're going to get buffed. If not, the class will stay like this for a while most likely.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

However yes... Scholar have less aoe recovery if your coheal dies and people fail mechanics.
So with people making mistakes, ast and whm can save it easier (in aoe situation).

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2x AST can let the raid flat out ignore Susano Ex's lightning mechanic... :/

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Originally Posted by Pence

You have Whispering Wind, Succor, Indom, ET Succor, Adlo DT.....5 is enough AOE healing I think.

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Calling the Adlo DT shield a heal is straight up wishful thinking. You could as well wrap your party in one ply (two ply if crit) toilette paper and throw the empty roll at the enemies. The result is the same except you would save some MP.

I wonder if SE would consider drastically reducing the cooldown of ET (say, to 5 seconds?)

That could give SCH access to what more or less works out of a medica/cure II equivalent, but not completely do away with SCH's emphasis on shields.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

2x AST can let the raid flat out ignore Susano Ex's lightning mechanic... :/

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I mean, you can do it with ast/sch and ast/whm quite easily. I can't say for sch/whm (because I haven't experienced that combo yet), but its not exclusive to dual ast.

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Originally Posted by eikomakimachi

While I agree with almost everyone about the aoe healing, I do think they need to review some things on SCH. I mean, Dissipation for example is the kind of skill I think I've only used 5 times as a big panic button to have extra aetherflow since HW was released. Almost everything else in our job screams STAY WITH THE FAIRY ON.

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I used to use it in PVP reasonably often but... then they completely changed PVP, so I'm probably never going to use it again. At least auto-resummoning the fairy after the effect wears off might make it situational, instead of an unnecessarily complicated skill I'll never have time to sort out in any situation where it's actually useful. If they made Dissipation good and balanced it appropriately, it could even fix the current situation with the Aetherflow nerfs.

I would be fine with dissipation if it didnt consume my fairy, sort of acting like a Advanced Aetherflow. Similar to DWT on SMN id also like it to refresh my CDs, but that would never happen. SE hates SCH too much..

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I mean, you can do it with ast/sch and ast/whm quite easily. I can't say for sch/whm (because I haven't experienced that combo yet), but its not exclusive to dual ast.

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Um. No. SCH would burn aetherflow stacks and CDs it needs for Ukehi.

WHM could do it a bit easier but it would be a lot more MP intensive without AST's super shields.

2x AST just makes it trivial.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I wonder if SE would consider drastically reducing the cooldown of ET (say, to 5 seconds?)

That could give SCH access to what more or less works out of a medica/cure II equivalent, but not completely do away with SCH's emphasis on shields.

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Maybe not 5s, 10-15 would certainly save us a hell of a lot of trouble; not only with aoe healing but with overeager, clueless dungeon tanks :)
Our other aoe skills are fine imho, we don't need an "on-demand" spammable aoe heal, our planned aoe heals and "niche"-y healing tools are a core part of SCH's identity... I STILL defend that most of those skills could use (read: NEED) some tweaking, but aoe is, for the most part, okay.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Maybe not 5s, 10-15 would certainly save us a hell of a lot of trouble; not only with aoe healing but with overeager, clueless dungeon tanks :)
Our other aoe skills are fine imho, we don't need an "on-demand" spammable aoe heal, our planned aoe heals and "niche"-y healing tools are a core part of SCH's identity... I STILL defend that most of those skills could use (read: NEED) some tweaking, but aoe is, for the most part, okay.

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Unless your party decides to happily stand in every AoE, then as a SCH you're pretty much screwed whereas WHM and maybe also AST can save the situation. But in the end I have to agree we don't need more AoE healing. We need tweaks to the existing ones.

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Originally Posted by AmelieR

Unless your party decides to happily stand in every AoE, then as a SCH you're pretty much screwed whereas WHM and maybe also AST can save the situation.

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Meanwhile, as a WHM, if your party happily stands in every AoE you'll likely lose people no matter how overpowered your healing is, since our shielding is effectively non-existent for the majority of encounters in the game (pre-DB) and sorely limited for anything else; if the incoming damage is high enough then all of the Cure IIIs in the world won't save people from a fate a SCH/AST could have avoided. It's frustrating even doing easy, old content when someone messes up a mechanic and everyone dies because the WHM couldn't raise a shield of some kind to stop the mistake wiping people out. Stoneskin was a band-aid which really helped. I hope Benison can get there one day even if it shouldn't ever be as good as SCH's shield toolkit.

Both jobs are lacking in flexibility while AST excels at everything.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Both jobs are lacking in flexibility while AST excels at everything.

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Well... sad but true, I guess. As I said a few days ago, when the hybrid healing job outclasses the two OG healing jobs there's something wrong with the balancing. :/

Looks like you never played SCH since they have healing aoes......

an aoe heal like those wont fix schs issues

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Originally Posted by AmelieR

Calling the Adlo DT shield a heal is straight up wishful thinking. You could as well wrap your party in one ply (two ply if crit) toilette paper and throw the empty roll at the enemies. The result is the same except you would save some MP.

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But it is a heal......girl, you drag without nails don't you.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I used to use it in PVP reasonably often but... then they completely changed PVP, so I'm probably never going to use it again. At least auto-resummoning the fairy after the effect wears off might make it situational, instead of an unnecessarily complicated skill I'll never have time to sort out in any situation where it's actually useful. If they made Dissipation good and balanced it appropriately, it could even fix the current situation with the Aetherflow nerfs.

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Well, Lildragora kinda summed up why I think twice before using Dissipation. You can resummon fairy later, but not only you have to wait a bit to be able to do so, but it'll probably consume Swiftcast:

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

I would be fine with dissipation if it didnt consume my fairy

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Funny I just had this convo with my FC. Using rough estimates for Mana cost- but the potencies I know! But this is on AOE heals only! Also Potency from tool tips and JOB guide posted.

Succor COST 2200 For a 150 potency Heal
Indom- Aether stack - but has cool down - 400 Potency
whispering dawn - Fairy action -120s cool down - 100 potency

Medica - 1200Cost - for 300 potency Heal
Medica II 1080Cost - 200 Potency heal
Assize - no cost MP REGEN and AOE and DAMAGE - 300

Helios - 1100(know it was lower than WHM) 300 heal
Aspected Helios - 1080cost - 200 heal
Earthly star/Stellar det - dunno this one - 540 Heal to 720

Considering all that...SCH really have Jack Squat!

Considering the other two have AOE heals that they can spam and not be dry.

I do Wish though we could use Indom like we use Lustrate. No cool down. and if i have the stacks i can blow all three on AoE heals if i want.

Your fairy has pseudo medica 2 and you have indomitability and emergency tactics+succor.

Not to mention, with a cohealer, succor spam is fine. It doesn't do a lot of raw healing, but raw healing isn't the scholar's niche, mitigation is, and the galvanize from the succor will absorb some damage to make your cohealer's medica/helios spam more efficient so they're not playing tug of war with the health bars.

As a scholar, you need to ditch the mentality that you are a throughput healer, because you aren't. You're good at preventing damage, not restoring it.

SCH has:

Indom
Deployment tactics + succor (DT has a short CD)
Rouse + whispering dawn.

Their AoE healing is covered. Their AoE damage ability however is a big issue right now.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Your fairy has pseudo medica 2 and you have indomitability and emergency tactics+succor.

Not to mention, with a cohealer, succor spam is fine. It doesn't do a lot of raw healing, but raw healing isn't the scholar's niche, mitigation is, and the galvanize from the succor will absorb some damage to make your cohealer's medica/helios spam more efficient so they're not playing tug of war with the health bars.

As a scholar, you need to ditch the mentality that you are a throughput healer, because you aren't. You're good at preventing damage, not restoring it.

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This may be true yes, but you also need to take in consideration...some times we have to be. There are plenty of times, we have to be not just the preventative but the reactionary. Whether its because our co-healer is not doing their job, or its gon to hell in a hand basket.... if i took the mentality of oh i just prevention....there would be a lot more fail rans and wipes.

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Originally Posted by Abaigeal

This may be true yes, but you also need to take in consideration...some times we have to be. There are plenty of times, we have to be not just the preventative but the reactionary. Whether its because our co-healer is not doing their job, or its gon to hell in a hand basket.... if i took the mentality of oh i just prevention....there would be a lot more fail rans and wipes.

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If your cohealer isn't doing their job, that isn't your fault, that isn't your problem, and it does not mean that you must shoulder all their responsibility as well as your own. You are not obligated to carry a crappy healer. I don't expect anyone to be able to solo heal an encounter designed for two healers (sure, a lot of the time it works out, but i never expect miracles from people), and if one of them isn't pulling their weight i don't expect everyone to just deal with it to avoid hurting their feelings.

Getting stuck with cruddy cohealers sometimes isn't a good enough excuse to warrant further healer homogenization. Especially when you don't have to pug things and can go in with a pre-made.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Your fairy has pseudo medica 2 and you have indomitability and emergency tactics+succor.

Not to mention, with a cohealer, succor spam is fine. It doesn't do a lot of raw healing, but raw healing isn't the scholar's niche, mitigation is, and the galvanize from the succor will absorb some damage to make your cohealer's medica/helios spam more efficient so they're not playing tug of war with the health bars.

As a scholar, you need to ditch the mentality that you are a throughput healer, because you aren't. You're good at preventing damage, not restoring it.

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Except Scholar isn't good at mitigating damage in comparison to AST.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Maybe not 5s, 10-15 would certainly save us a hell of a lot of trouble; not only with aoe healing but with overeager, clueless dungeon tanks :)
Our other aoe skills are fine imho, we don't need an "on-demand" spammable aoe heal, our planned aoe heals and "niche"-y healing tools are a core part of SCH's identity... I STILL defend that most of those skills could use (read: NEED) some tweaking, but aoe is, for the most part, okay.

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Yeah... I was mostly suggesting that because of the absurd power creep from AST. SCH AOE healing is definitely 'good enough' to clear content.

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Originally Posted by Esrain

I'd just like to chime in, is that the reason I ended up switching to astrologian, is because if players are happy the way scholar aoe heals currently are, there's little incentive for Square Enix to update scholars aoe healing to be more in line with astrologian.

I feel that astrologian is "just right" at the moment and little or nothing about it should be changed.

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Except SCH's AoE healing shouldn't need to be brought up to AST's. SCH definately has problems right now, but the AoE healing isn't one of them (Other than possibly the MP cost on Succor, now with the Aetherflow nerf), and the primary problem in this comparison is that AST is just currently overtuned, and honestly something of a flawed design to begin with.

WHM is the pure throughput healer.
SCH is the mitigation healer.
AST was designed to be the hybrid, able to do both but not quite as well as WHM or SCH, plus RNG buffs.

Unfortunately, RNG buffs is a terribly flawed mechanic, and is only really worth bringing when it has the potential for crazy numbers like the current Balance, so almost no one seriously played it on release. Square responded by buffing every aspect of the job (the healing throughput, the mitigation, and the buffs), so now the "hybrid" class is in this weird place where it heals stronger than the "pure healer" and mitigates better than the "mitigation healer" on top of the insanity that is Balance.

It's great that AST feels good to play, but that's honestly not something that's really sustainable. The hybrid class should not be better than both of the other classes at what they ostensibly specialize in. The fact is that it's very design as the hybrid class rather than having a fleshed out identity of it's own means that it's balance is likely completely binary, with "too weak to use" on one side, and "overwhelming" on the other. This is helped even less by SE apparently getting lazy in it's initial design and just copying most of WHM's abilities.

AST is a broken monster. You shouldn't strive to be like them.

If you can't aoe heal with the sch tool kit i really don't know what to say besides play the other two classes that are more straight forward I guess.

Rouse + plus fairy aoe + indom all at once is a massive amount of aoe healing that's 0 mp cost with no cast times

Heck with a complementary healer you don't even need to indom a good chunk of the time. Medica 2 and roused fairy aoe heal together gets through a lot of stuff on their own

To use susanoo tripple lightning for an example, ast or whm do their medica 2, then a aoe heal while I do fairy aoe heal and I dont need to help the rest of the thing. If people happen to dip low after the second shock I'll just toss out a quick indom and go back to my business

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Originally Posted by Esrain

I respectfully disagree, ast is just right at the moment. If ast is really good, then its the other healers that need to be bumped up to Ast level.

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AST seriously IS a broken monster. they already buffed WHM's cures, and AST is still outdoing them. constantly buffing and no nerfing will just lead to headaches.

With succor, indom and whispering dawn, we really have plenty.

What SCH actually needs is a decent non-aetherflow single target heal...

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Originally Posted by Esrain

I respectfully disagree, ast is just right at the moment. If ast is really good, then its the other healers that need to be bumped up to Ast level.

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Actually, no. In the case of AST, they're actually fundamentally broken.
250% barriers? Healing on the level of. WHM? Buffing beyond anyone could ever dream of? It has a problem, and buffs to other healers will just make content too easy.