Can anyone say anything positive about 4.0 DRG?

I've been sitting here for like an hour trying come to a logical conclusion as to why they decided to remove any interesting mechanics or complexity to Dragoon and leave them as the weakest DPS job in SB, even taking into account the additional effective DPS they'd receive through their piercing resistance debuff and straight damage increasing party buffs.

Someone give me a reason to keep using jumps before I jump to a job that doesn't risk putting me to sleep mid battle.

Get to lvl 70 before making any definite conclusions. Mirage Dive only procs off of Jump and Spineshatter Dive btw. You will need 4 Mirage Dives to proc Life of the Dragon. Yes, starting at 60 DRG feels super dry bc of no Phlebotimize and no need to manage BoD, but there will be more to do as you progress to 70. I'm only 68 on mine atm, having done DRK first, but at 68 I find the rotation much more fun than at 60. DRK also felt really weird at 60, but also fleshed out more as it progressed, and I'm guessing other jobs might feel that way as well. Just gotta get to 70 and have all abilities unlocked to find out how the full rotation will play out.

They always put a damage buff on me while I'm tanking experts and they seem to be capable of putting out decent damage themselves? It's also one of the coolest looking jobs in the game. :)

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Originally Posted by Jabe

Just gotta get to 70 and have all abilities unlocked to find out how the full rotation will play out.

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I'm 64 now and just unlocked lance mastery which entirely removes any need for me to even look at my dragon meter, as barring me literally falling asleep for want of an interesting mechanic on my job, it will never deplete with me getting 20 seconds of blood every combo.

And looking towards the horizon, all I have to look forward to is another OGCD jump I can use after my other jumps and a red version of geirskogul that does more damage with a longer cooldown; In other words, absolutely nothing that changes how the class plays. Thanks Yoshida!

Nastrond actually only has a 10 second cooldown. So providing you go into life of the dragon with over 20 seconds on your BotD timer (though as close to 30 seconds as possible is better) you can do it 3 times while LotD is up.

Nope, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. We get a timer on a timer, a 4th on 4th weapon skill, a jump on a jump, and geirskogul on geirskogul. We got dragons eye, that's pretty cool. Everything is the same, just doubled, but our dps is halved. Oh and the added bonus of losing all progress towards LotD during phase changes. But! Reduced cool down on elusive jump soooo more backflips? If that interests you.

Can say something positive..

I'm positive it's not the weakest dps class right now.

I'm positive it has a huge player base and will be tweaked.

I'm positive a lot of jobs "don't feel right" - we didn't just get class changes, we also got a combat system revamp and pve style change. Change is hard

It looks cool?

It's the 3rd weakest dps as a MELEE DPS which is clearly off.

Its damage utility is fairly questionable as disembowel is 5% for the 2 lowest dps?

Dragon sight is just bad (bad range, weak, visual noise, doesn't even grant an eye stack)

Litany is the only thing that remained good about DRG and even that isn't at its final form yet as crit has been rescaled so its lower for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Grelvin

Can say something positive..

I'm positive it's not the weakest dps class right now.

I'm positive it has a huge player base and will be tweaked.

I'm positive a lot of jobs "don't feel right" - we didn't just get class changes, we also got a combat system revamp and pve style change. Change is hard

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I think they forgot to revamp dragoon. All they did was give a graphic to BOTD and remove skills that weren't used in every battle. Maybe this would be alright if the new skills and traits added anything interesting or changed things up, but it's just more jumps and more geirskogul.

The most novel thing they added is dragon sight, which is only interesting in that it's DRG's first skill that involves interacting with another player; very interesting decision of them to wait until level 66 before giving us a skill involving other players in an MMORPG.

I like lvl70 goon more than 60 if that makes you happy xP
The eyes make me happier in dungeons than the ordinary BotD. In primals is the same as the old thing which I already loved, I'm only bummed about not getting a new legit Jump.

Tbh I'm enjoying my DRG right now. Still fun to play.
However I feel like my damage is lacking compared to other DPS classes.

You can troll people who don't know what Dragon Sight does?

One word AWESOME if you know the job properly. Here is a tip for all who think it sucks....Read how the actions work. Practice with your chocobo in fates while waiting. Specially Dragon Sight, at 70 mobs seem to die too fast to use all moves and if you can incorporate sprint into main boss fights they become so much easier.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

One word AWESOME if you know the job properly. Here is a tip for all who think it sucks....Read how the actions work. Practice with your chocobo in fates while waiting. Specially Dragon Sight, at 70 mobs seem to die too fast to use all moves and if you can incorporate sprint into main boss fights they become so much easier.

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See, I'm glad you're enjoying the class and seeing those nasty mobs die quickly.

But unfortunately for you, DRG is objectively weak. I personally enjoy it despite Kaioken not actually doing much for the class and taking 70 seconds to activate in the first place. It feels like mnk did, it rewards creativity to keep up. But that doesn't matter when all the effort is for little.

If you can prove to me that DRG isn't the 3rd weakest dps I will cut off my nutsacks and eat them in a sandwich.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

See, I'm glad you're enjoying the class and seeing those nasty mobs die quickly.

But unfortunately for you, DRG is objectively weak. I personally enjoy it despite Kaioken not actually doing much for the class and taking 70 seconds to activate in the first place. It feels like mnk did, it rewards creativity to keep up. But that doesn't matter when all the effort is for little.

If you can prove to me that DRG isn't the 3rd weakest dps I will cut off my nutsacks and eat them in a sandwich.

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Sigh they say ignorance is a bliss let me ask you what do you focus on as a DRG? As a DRG it's all about how you are able to use your rotations effectively. Example I focus on Skill speed and Critical. Determination is next if I have maxed out gear or cap. (saving seals for highest materia before adding to new gear ) I've seen too many DRG leaving Skill speed last....nice they can hit hard but doesn't compare to getting more hit in, 2 for the price of one and still out damage within that same time. I can go on about rotations and such but if you already don't know the basics and how to add new ones in I can't help you with that. Also blood of the dragon and life of a dragon make a huge difference specially if you can keep Life of Dragon up. Mainly only been able to keep it up in Major boss fights or primal fights, yet it can be done. My guess is if your not seeing the damage out put is probably do to you being a bit too slow on your skill timers. For end game stuff is a bit different. You need to have a good balance and really depends onhow dependable your group is. When I have a chance I will place logs as an example. Now then, SAM is a power house I will give them that and currently working on it. So far a bit slow compare to RDM and DRG. I can't speak for nin...yet do to the short time I've had to level my alternates roles. I specialize in DRG, DRK, NIN, BLM, PLD, going to SAM and RDM once I get the feeling for them both if I enjoy them. Too bad we aren't in same server would have loved to show you rather then type specially in Duel.

Note I love relics and one can pretty much carry you weapon wise until 70 and you complete Job quest for gear and new wep. If you really want to test out your skills and implementing sprint into your rotation Do shin fight and practice in it :P Enjoy your meal by the way :P

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Rambling

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You proved nothing. Dragoon was the underdog in the last tier below both monk and ninja. And it only made up to compete with ninja because its synergy with bard and machinist and this class doing ok dps.
Now we are the underdog again in potencies, yet bringing bard and machinist doesn't make us competitive at all. Also skill speed has been proved with hundreds of data points to be the INFERIOR stat to our dps. Plus the fuck ups it causes to lining up of cds and such.
I think the friendo here, HoLoFoNo, has more of a clue about playing dragoon in high end content than you so no need to be snarky about it.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Stuff.

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This is most certainly bait. But ill take it all the same.

Skill speed is dog shit for DRG (unless you count the ultra high SKS rotation which is more of a theory than anything) so your 'feelings' don't mean anything when there is mathematical evidence which suggests what substats are more valuable than others.


It's quite clear that everything you say is completely anecdotal and is not backed up with any sort of fact or proof, instead you just spew nonsense and then claim it as fact.

You can never tell me shit about the DRG rotation as I've played it since 2013 and last time it was my main, I was hitting 99 percentiles on Gordias which even if fflogs is just epeen displaying, its still proof of knowledge of a class. You on the other hand have demonstrated how little you actually understand about the game and its mechanics.

LotD isn't a super significant contribution because in the end, it's 70 seconds of build up for what? 960 potency in a 30 second window? Obviously that isn't nearly enough as not only does it not feel like a core mechanic since it only affects 1 ability in the classes entire kit, it is much more punishing to drop than most of the other classes secondary resource, which does not deplete during downtime.

Regardless of if I enjoy the class or not, it is clear that DRG is suffering from poor design choices which leads to it being much weaker than all the other melee dps despite its offensive utility and the gap between dragoon and the classes above it is quite large when all things are considered. Coupled with the fact that its fairly punishing to play makes for a terrible imbalance of high risk low reward which is the equivalent of useless to the majority of people. This is further evidence from the numerous complains outweighing the positives from all language forums.

Send me your logs for your Lakshimi and Susano parses if you are so good. If not then stop spewing nonsense as if it is true.

P.S Yeah nice one, you will SHOW me your power in a duel. GL with that edge lord

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Originally Posted by Erys

You proved nothing. Dragoon was the underdog in the last tier below both monk and ninja. And it only made up to compete with ninja because its synergy with bard and machinist and this class doing ok dps.
Now we are the underdog again in potencies, yet bringing bard and machinist doesn't make us competitive at all. Also skill speed has been proved with hundreds of data points to be the INFERIOR stat to our dps. Plus the fuck ups it causes to lining up of cds and such.
I think the friendo here, HoLoFoNo, has more of a clue about playing dragoon in high end content than you so no need to be snarky about it.

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Thanks for summing it up nicer than I could, I wish I saw this before I posted that essay.

(That being said last tier DRG technically had higher dps than NIN on a dummy but due to the mechanics of the fights DRG couldn't produce its max potential.)

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Originally Posted by Erys

You proved nothing. Dragoon was the underdog in the last tier below both monk and ninja. And it only made up to compete with ninja because its synergy with bard and machinist and this class doing ok dps.
Now we are the underdog again in potencies, yet bringing bard and machinist doesn't make us competitive at all. Also skill speed has been proved with hundreds of data points to be the INFERIOR stat to our dps. Plus the fuck ups it causes to lining up of cds and such.
I think the friendo here, HoLoFoNo, has more of a clue about playing dragoon in high end content than you so no need to be snarky about it.

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End game and casual are two different things. I don't expect people to understand and your right Endgame gear needs to be more damaged based which I agree. However majority of players, DF lately seem to lack that understanding and hard when your taking hate from a Tank. Then again I don't expect people to understand this. While I'm sure your a great player in your own little world not everyone is the same style. People who rather lack keeping an open mind and want to belittle others really don't have perception to try different things. Also SE seems to have finally added some dungeons to give some basics on mechanics, which to my surprise even some veterans seem to forget on the most basic things. Yet to each their on, hope we don't meet in DF.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

P.S Yeah nice one, you will SHOW me your power in a duel. GL with that edge lord

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The world is dumb enough don't add to it-Foamy

Even in casual content Crit, Direct hit and Determination overrule Skill Speed because it's basically useless after you reach the minimum you need.

The class has turned to garbage in my opinion. I've been playing it at a high level since I started the game and I may have to switch. They took away the interesting parts of the job and made it a convoluted, clunky mess. Dragon sight is awful, clunky and the range is a joke. Mirage dive has worse animation lock than 2.x Jump. Wasting 90 seconds of relatively uninterrupted time on a boss to enter LotD is the most unrewarding gimmick of any class and should reset cooldowns of jumps, boost potencies further and/or be sustainable by competent play. This would make theclass engaging. I'd rather stay in LotD and get a nastrond for every eye I generated in the process of getting there. If I could sustain it as BotD and refresh eyes with more mirage dives the class would be fun, rewarding and require foresight into boss mechanics and buff application. Instead it feels awful and a hassle to even maintain average dps

Lmao OP, don't worry, you'll hate DRG once you get to 70, but it won't be because it lacks complexity I tell you.

I agree. They made Dragoon more complicated, and took away any reward for skilled play.

Nastrond is a cool sounding name I guess?

The dragon eye stacks have a cool basis in the lore I guess?

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Originally Posted by Riotpersona

Nastrond is a cool sounding name I guess?

The dragon eye stacks have a cool basis in the lore I guess?

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It's more than just cool sounding
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A1str%C3%B6nd

To me one of the worst decision they made with DRG is changing the timing for Geir. You used to be able to push out constant Geirs as long as you kept time on the clock but now you are gated by a 30 second timer which makes it kinda useless as a aoe attack. On top of that having only two jumps to activate eyes is pretty lame and in normal dungeon running minus boss battles its almost impossible to consistently use Nostrand in general mob pulls unless the tank is either keeping a really good pace and there are no breaks in the action or the tank is doing huge pulls.

I held off any opinions until I got to 70 and tried a few extremes. One positive - AOE can be sustained longer. With that said, after maining dragoon since beta, I'll probably finally jump off the ship.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

I held off any opinions until I got to 70 and tried a few extremes. One positive - AOE can be sustained longer. With that said, after maining dragoon since beta, I'll probably finally jump off the ship.

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Yea was thinking the same. Been a Goon main since 2.0 but really not feeling it this time around. I will probably wait and see what if any balancing/changes get made before I make a real decision though.

They share accessories with SAM so it's easier to go SAM.

It's very fun to play but Life of the Dragon is torture and if your tank isn't Sonic the Hedgehog you won't be using it much. I don't understand stuff like 5% piercing debuff vs 10 (especially if we're being moved in a high utility DPS direction), or why Ring of Thorns was removed for a redundant ability in an expansion about pruning redundancies. I also just don't feel the payoff is there for the amount of work we have to put in for this new rotation.

Not a drg player but, your 70 AF armor looks awesome