WHM is much better now

At first i was afraid of the enormous amouth of changes to the only job that i can really play well but despite stoneskin missing Whm became a lot smoother in dungeons. No need to mess with cleric stance, dps feels better and assize is now a real tactical move. Like a quick medica. Good job SE. Finally a class without endless rotations~

- Juliana. Lv. 62 Whm.

WHM works surprisingly well without cleric stance.. it makes the synergy between different skills much more apparent and fluid.
Also Thin Air + Presence of Mind + Holy spam <3

Agreed on cleric. It just makes things feel a lot more fluid.

I agree with y'all on the part of the attacking and healing being of the same attribute. that part is nice. my problem comes in with the lilies not truely being of much help and the new shield that they gave us to replace stoneskin. Divine Benison, maybe it is good for one strike, but against a BOSS it doesn't even stop most of the damage. Right now it's just a waist of space all my hotbar. My problem comes in with them not truely putting much thought into PvE WHM. And I am someone who truely loves playing as WHM the most, so I am really sad that they have done more bad than good to my favorite job.

Yeah WHM is great especially MP management. There is lots of hate out there not sure why though

So I've been finishing up the MSQ as WAR and gearing up healer stuff from quests while gearing up my WAR in dungeons, so WHM is next on my list.

While running with white mages I didn't notice any real problems. I do notice I'm being hit a lot harder even in synced dungeons so I would assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that dungeon wise, I'll be using Cure / Cure II more often than we did in 3.0?

Can't say I agree with this. White Mage dps feels empty now and I can barely get a lily in my runs. The only period I've had any luck with lilies was level 52 up to 59 before I swap my Cure for Tetra.

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Originally Posted by GrislyRhyme

Yeah WHM is great especially MP management. There is lots of hate out there not sure why though

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Probably because we have to sacrifice cross skills to get what we had before :/
Still can't believe i'm a healer with no Esuna by default -_-

There is one aspect of WHM that I do not like and this would be Plenary Indulgence.

I find it to be too random and not have any specific relevance in relation to the actual mechanics of the class.

Plenary Indulgence needs to be re-worked in some fashion although I would have to see what it is like in raiding scenarios.

I said it in the WHM thread as a suggested change but something like a link to the actual Lilly mechanic where there is an extended duration of the plenary Indulgence buff based on how many lillys you have or something along those lines.

The other option is just to make plenary indulgence work with the Lilly Mechanic and having the heal based on a number of lillys you have.

I will give it the positive aspect of the actual heal is that it does not invoke the GCD giving you an extra heal.

An additional change that could be considered is adding a chance to Divine Benison that would cast a shield on the WHM it is a bit of an RNG wall which I am complaining about with the Plenary Indulgence but then again it would work with the mechanics that are given to us.

You could even instead of the WHM give it a chance to cast the shield on a party member with the lowest HP.

The cooldown reduction on Assize and Tetragrammaton are a welcome change.

The boost on Cure Potency is actually really good and the MP Management of WHM is a lot better.

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Originally Posted by GrislyRhyme

Yeah WHM is great especially MP management. There is lots of hate out there not sure why though

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Lillies and Confession stacks.

WHM is viable, and works very well without CS but that doesn't mean its good or balanced. The new mechanics are clunky, needless and unintuitive demanding one to play inefficiently to make use of them. If you can get RNG to grace you that is. SCH is in a worse place, but AST is so far and away better than both its unreal.

Also OP is only lv. 62. Which is when you learn Thin Air. An amazing Cooldown, but hardly a real indicator of WHM at 70.

I hit 70 a few days ago, and for the most part it plays well. WHM has always felt good to play, and the changes don't stop you from playing the way you did at lv. 60.

The problem comes in 3 forms. The first is that we lost 7 skills that were appropriated to the cross role system, so by default we lose functionality.

Secondly, the lily system. At best, it's a passive benefit you can mostly ignore (apart from timing your benison usage). At worst, it's a poorly implemented mechanic that incentivizes inefficient healing.

Third is the confession system. Tying your lv. 70 skill to something that is so situational seems like a complete waste.

Despite the glaring problems, it's not all doom & gloom. Our mp management issue has been completely rectified. Lowering our cooldowns on assize and bene give you more burst healing versatility, and the upgraded holy spamming makes us extremely viable in dungeon content.

WHM is definitely not as bad as people were afraid of it being.

I'd agree that whm isn't the living nightmare we made it out to be... but the changes are annoying.

The lillies are annoying. Being a manly man in healer gear was annoying enough but.. ew... lillies. A nearly completely useless ui taking up my screen, and I could careless about it.

As many mentioned, the role actions are a needless annoyance. I had this all already. Stone skin, the one thing different from all my heal spells got chewed up and spat out as this benson nonsense, a needlessly more complicated version of it.

Haven't dealt with the confessions yet but it seems annoying too. Honestly like the lillies I'm probably going to ignore it for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Ifrinne

At first i was afraid of the enormous amouth of changes to the only job that i can really play well but despite stoneskin missing Whm became a lot smoother in dungeons. No need to mess with cleric stance, dps feels better and assize is now a real tactical move. Like a quick medica. Good job SE. Finally a class without endless rotations~

- Juliana. Lv. 62 Whm.

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DPS is smoother, agreed. The rest, however...
Lillies could just as well not be there at all. They are ignorable at best, annoying at worst. Devinie Benison uses all Lillies but gains nothing from 2+. Couldn't test out Confessions, but all I hear is that's really, really awful.
Loosing Stoneskin hurts a lot. Loosing all those skills to the stupid job action system even more. I'm not even able to use Esuna because other skills are more useful, so I kinda feel castrated for that alone.

That's why people complain, because one change to the better doesn't make all the ones to the worse non-existent. And they far outweight the benefits.
Oh, and it's by no means more strategical, because I barely ever can blow those Lillies on the skills I want, mainly Assize because it returns the most. I also don't gain anything from a CD I already planned on using at a specific time being off-CD 4 seconds earlier...

I am still not sure why everyone is complaining about losing Stoneskin, when it was almost never used beyond a precast at the start of the pull.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I am still not sure why everyone is complaining about losing Stoneskin, when it was almost never used beyond a precast at the start of the pull.

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1. Because no one likes to lose abilities.
2. Because it wasn't lost, it was reworked into an awkward version that consumes lilies with a different usage design.

I agree that the CS and mp management changes are good and that having to take old class skills as role skills is not so great.

I think Lilies and Confessions are fine as part a gauge concept but need tweaking to be useful. I use a good deal of Cure and Cure II but I get why many players feel limited in earning and using Lilies and Confessions.

Divine Benison could be stronger (from what I've read, seen, and heard) and/or apply to multiple party members. Have the duration, strength, and/or number of targets affected scale with the number of Lilies stacked and that could balance out the RNG factor.

My WHM is still 60 and will be for some time because I'm not installing SB until I finish HW. But as of now, WHM at worst plays exactly like it did in 3.0. I don't see this as a bad thing, especially considering WHM MP issues are now a thing of the past. So it is improved no matter how you look at it.

I'm not the least bit upset about the role skills because my perspective is much different than most WHM mains. I was hurt about losing divine seal, but I'm over it. I loved my stoneskin as well, but losing it also frees up a gcd, so will fling rocks at the enemy in its place. I won't lie though, they should have taken away repose, not stoneskin. The casting animation to the role skill is also really pretty. A definite bonus.

The reduced CDs on tetra, bene, and assize are not given enough credit. They all contribute to a greater MP pool and increased dps potential. It makes WHM better at what they were already good at.
No longer having to stance really benefits the WHM here. It definitely feels more fluid now, though it took me a bit to get used to it.

As for the lilies, it's actually nice as a passive ability. I'm not going to frown at something that shaves off cooldown timers, even the negligible 4%, which I see as an additional reduction to the BS changes to CD reductions. I actually worry that any changes might make WHM OP. I believe it's the confession mechanic that needs to be reworked from the ground up. Going off of what players who have PL are saying, it's every bit as bad as it looks in paper.

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Originally Posted by Molucca

Our mp management issue has been completely rectified.

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Can I ask how? I ran Qarn last night on my level 44 WHM (not that that matters) but I noticed I was often scrapping the barrel of MP. On the 2nd boss, I completely went OOM at maybe 25% of boss health but fortunately, noone died.

I think mp has become a much bigger problem than it was post 4.0 but granted my experience with healing is mostly sub 40 content thus far.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I am still not sure why everyone is complaining about losing Stoneskin, when it was almost never used beyond a precast at the start of the pull.

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To be fair, it helped a ton with mitigation. Despite it having a cast time, if you know the fight you can pre-cast it to line up with any tankbusters, and it wasn't gated behind casting cure/cure II. You could also us it with Swiftcast, which improved its versatility. Versatility is the important word, because being able to use your toolkit to better adapt to changing situations is one of the best parts of playing a healer. Restricting spell usage hinders your ability to act on the fly.

To the people struggling to use Divine Benison. This is not a shield your looking to use when your target is almost full health. Most times the best time to use this skill is when healing your tank below 50% health. This to me is the danger zone, cast cure 2 then immediately cast Benison. This combo gives you a cushion to top off your tank and reapply those HoTs. If your having trouble healing as a whm your probably conserving your lilies too much. Think of it this way am i going to save more time waiting for those 1-2 extra lillies than i would if i just used the skill now? Use Benison off of cooldown, its a 15s skill that = 15% of your tanks health. Play like you have no idea the lilies exist you will notice your gameplay improve.

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Originally Posted by XenabelleS

Can I ask how? I ran Qarn last night on my level 44 WHM (not that that matters) but I noticed I was often scrapping the barrel of MP. On the 2nd boss, I completely went OOM at maybe 25% of boss health but fortunately, noone died.

I think mp has become a much bigger problem than it was post 4.0 but granted my experience with healing is mostly sub 40 content thus far.

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Right after you get holy it's gonna wreck your mp to start. Your mp issues get fixed by the skills you get going from 60-70. Once you get assize at 56 you'll be able to deal with it a bit better as well.

A good rule of thumb is to make use of ethers during low level dungeons. They refresh pretty quickly and can supplement your mp fairly well (and they're cheap).

Rest assured, it gets much better.

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Originally Posted by XenabelleS

Can I ask how? I ran Qarn last night on my level 44 WHM (not that that matters) but I noticed I was often scrapping the barrel of MP. On the 2nd boss, I completely went OOM at maybe 25% of boss health but fortunately, noone died.

I think mp has become a much bigger problem than it was post 4.0 but granted my experience with healing is mostly sub 40 content thus far.

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There are three factors involved with your experience:
How well geared is the party as whole? Poorly geared players who are supposed to deal damage will stall the fight to the point where your MP becomes an issue. Poorly geared healer and/or tank would increase MP consumption/minute
How much are you healing for no reason? Or also known as "overhealing"
How well was the party performing as whole? I hope that granite sandwich tasted awful to whoever eats it in Qarn. But oh well, healers adjust

Variables aside, Assize is practically the same as Aetherflow now. Something Astrologian does not have in their kit readily/reliably available (Ewer). If you'd look at just the healer aspect, Scholars pay more for their healing than White Mage and Astrologians do. But you don't get Assize till much later, so this doesn't apply to your experience in the sunken temple of qarn. Or any other dungeon till you reach that level, for that matter

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Originally Posted by Molucca

To be fair, it helped a ton with mitigation. Despite it having a cast time, if you know the fight you can pre-cast it to line up with any tankbusters, and it wasn't gated behind casting cure/cure II. You could also us it with Swiftcast, which improved its versatility. Versatility is the important word, because being able to use your toolkit to better adapt to changing situations is one of the best parts of playing a healer.

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This argument falls apart on itself. Stoneskin required knowing the tank buster is coming or a swiftcast. If you know the tank buster is coming you can pre cast cure 2, which gives you a lily which allows for Benison instantly. I was lucky to get 1-3 useful stoneskins off any fight and sometimes cost me my swift cast. Benison can be used 5-10 times in a fight and never requires the use of swiftcast. Only difference now is you have to cast a cure 2 first instead of after the shield.

I never felt WHM was going to unplayable. I just feel like for an expansion it seems rather under whelming that the only thing reliable and completely new we received was Thin Air. Pair that with the loss of some skills and needing to fill most of our job role slots with old abilities and it makes me a little angry. I'm waiting on a friend to continue leveling my WHM but the Lily system is already being ignored. I can't afford to sit around and wait to use my cool downs and since they already decreased the cooldowns of things like Assize, the added reductions feels lackluster. I'm not hearing good things about confession stacks either and while the removal of stance dancing does make DPS safer, I find I'm bored as WHM if I end up dpsing, especially single target. AERO, STONE, STONE, STONE.

Also I'm never not going to be a little salty about how our abilities look in comparison to other healers and salt in the wound was them taking Ensuna and giving it a pretty animation before handing it back to me, but not taking the time to make any of the WHM only spells just as nice. I don't think we've had an outright visually appealing spell since Holy. Certainly nothing on par with what they do for AST. All and all, I'm hoping for tweaks to make it feel like WHM got something worth while and that I'm not essentially playing SB with the WHM of HW.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

This argument falls apart on itself. Stoneskin required knowing the tank buster is coming or a swiftcast. If you know the tank buster is coming you can pre cast cure 2, which gives you a lily which allows for Benison instantly. I was lucky to get 1-3 useful stoneskins off any fight and sometimes cost me my swift cast. Benison can be used 5-10 times in a fight and never requires the use of swiftcast. Only difference now is you have to cast a cure 2 first instead of after the shield.

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Casting the big heal before the shield defeats the purpose of applying that shield in the first place. A shield is applied to mitigate damage. But if you precast Cure II to hit directly after the damage, you can save your Lilly because you won't need a shield afterwards. If you cast it to top of the tank, chance is your co-healer will be slightly faster, tops of the tank, and robs you of your Lilly. You didn't have any of this trouble with Stoneskin. Also, Stoneskin wasn't gated behind a stupid mechanic AND a CD, and that's not even talking about having to spend MP anyway to get it. And, btw, if you raid, you usually know when the tankbuster is comming or you aren't a very good healer, sorry to be so blunt.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Casting the big heal before the shield defeats the purpose of applying that shield in the first place. A shield is applied to mitigate damage. But if you precast Cure II to hit directly after the damage, you can save your Lilly because you won't need a shield afterwards. If you cast it to top of the tank, chance is your co-healer will be slightly faster, tops of the tank, and robs you of your Lilly. You didn't have any of this trouble with Stoneskin. Also, Stoneskin wasn't gated behind a stupid mechanic AND a CD, and that's not even talking about having to spend MP anyway to get it. And, btw, if you raid, you usually know when the tankbuster is comming or you aren't a very good healer, sorry to be so blunt.

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If a WHM is timing their cure 2 to land right after the TB, no healer is going to be fast enough to rob the WHM of their Lily, and even if they were, there is supposed to be coordination between healers in raids and savage, am I correct?

I get what he's saying, and the idea is if you need to cast cure 2 on the tank, they are taking enough damage to benefit from Benison. You only need one Lily, so cast cure 2 and follow with Benison to give yourself some breathing room. There is no RNG element involved with this. It is a straight heal and instant additional damage mitigation for the tank. This is exactly how I would use Benison in just about any content I run.

You can never really cast a bad shield. Even at full HP, a shield like Benison effectively increases the over all HP of the beneficiary.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If a WHM is timing their cure 2 to land right after the TB, no healer is going to be fast enough to rob the WHM of their Lily, and even if they were, there is supposed to be coordination between healers in raids and savage, am I correct?

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Actually, not in this case, because it appears that lilies do not generate on precasted heals. I've seen a few report this, and have noticed it myself but haven't done extensive testing. If the recipient's HP isn't sub-100% locally before the cast goes off but the heal lands on the server after the tankbuster like you want, no flower for you - but again that's with my limited testing so far. I've specifically tried it a few times, but don't want to state it as fact yet.

That I also seem to get lilies before the heal registers back from the server makes me think this is done a bit more locally in general than I'd like, as if the client doesn't tell the server to check and grant a lily unless the client itself sees a non-overheal. Similar to benediction going on CD but the heal not landing in time on the server's end.

I'm going to have to play more to see how much you'll actually have to "delay" a precasted heal to get a lily out of it if it is indeed true. Which would suck, as it penalizes good play, and the good ol' combo of tankbuster + autoattack is something you try to prevent as much as possible with good timing. I take pride in landing heals precise enough that the tank doesn't even notice their HP drop for even a fraction of a second, and it's unfortunate if I'll be penalized for that, now.

I'd rather they just remove the overheal component, at least on cure 2, as a workaround for that. No one's going to be spamming that for lilies in nearly all scenarios. Cures, maybe, but Cure 2s? Super unlikely. Even with cures, I wouldn't see the big deal. Savage healers are going to be spending that time doing damage rather than farming lilies at a 50% chance, so I don't see any significant balance coming out of it except not feeling like you've been robbed of quite as many flowers.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If a WHM is timing their cure 2 to land right after the TB, no healer is going to be fast enough to rob the WHM of their Lily, and even if they were, there is supposed to be coordination between healers in raids and savage, am I correct?

I get what he's saying, and the idea is if you need to cast cure 2 on the tank, they are taking enough damage to benefit from Benison. You only need one Lily, so cast cure 2 and follow with Benison to give yourself some breathing room. There is no RNG element involved with this. It is a straight heal and instant additional damage mitigation for the tank. This is exactly how I would use Benison in just about any content I run.

You can never really cast a bad shield. Even at full HP, a shield like Benison effectively increases the over all HP of the beneficiary.

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You didn't get the point at all. If I time Cure II to land after the tankbuster, chances are good that I don't need Benison anymore afterwards because the tank is out of danger zone already. Especially if your co-healer is worth their salt and heals as well when necessary. Shields are most useful when they are applied before the damage; afterwards, their usefulness is decreased drastically.

In A9S, for example, you applied Stoneskin before Ravensbeak to help the SCH mitigate as much DMG as possible. That's no longer possible in that way with Benison, because I have to heal first, then apply the shield, and if the tank is already topped, yay, no Lilly.

The Bigger Problem with Benison over Stoneskin is that Stoneskin could usually take 2 or 3 hits before wearing off. But Benison cant even completely stop one hit most the time. At least thats the problem that i have with it the most. because the lily thing, even though annoying, i seem to always have lilys so its whatever

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Originally Posted by Tjedition

The Bigger Problem with Benison over Stoneskin is that Stoneskin could usually take 2 or 3 hits before wearing off. But Benison cant even completely stop one hit most the time. At least thats the problem that i have with it the most. because the lily thing, even though annoying, i seem to always have lilys so its whatever

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I think that's an issue with either mobs hitting harder or undergeared tanks (compared to end of expansion gear with inflated stats). Benison statistically is stronger than stone skin.

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Originally Posted by IndoX

Benison statistically is stronger than stone skin.

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post nerf stoneskin, yes...

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

You didn't get the point at all. If I time Cure II to land after the tankbuster, chances are good that I don't need Benison anymore afterwards because the tank is out of danger zone already. Especially if your co-healer is worth their salt and heals as well when necessary. Shields are most useful when they are applied before the damage; afterwards, their usefulness is decreased drastically.

In A9S, for example, you applied Stoneskin before Ravensbeak to help the SCH mitigate as much DMG as possible. That's no longer possible in that way with Benison, because I have to heal first, then apply the shield, and if the tank is already topped, yay, no Lilly.

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I'm afraid you're the one not getting the point. What ability does WHM have to shield an oncoming hit now that stoneskin is gone? And why, and HOW could a tank possibly be topped off with a single cure 2 after a buster? Pre damage mitigation falls on SCH or AST. That is what your Co healer should be doing since WHM is unable to do so.

Tell me, in your extensive savage history, does the mob divert its attention to someone other than the tank after a TB, or does it continue to try and kill him? If the answer is the later, the tank benefits from Benison. Shields have to be reapplied after they are stripped. WHM does this in an instant with Benison. And even if the mob does turn its attention to another player, you can slap them with the barrier.

Again, you can't really cast a bad shield. Especially one that is ogcd and MP free. Benison does have a duration, but if you're paying attention, this shouldn't be a problem.

You also might want to factor that WHM runs content other than raids.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

snip..

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That's a good and interesting point. You definitely should not be punished this way for proactive healing. I have noticed lilies procuring while in mid cast, but just figured it was server lag, but it would make sense if a pre cast fails to proc on a target at 100%. Hopefully they can fix this if that truly is the case. I'll have to run some tests as well. :)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

post nerf stoneskin, yes...

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That Nerf happened when?... over a year ago? Let it go dude. The poster was clearly comparing Benison to 3.55 stoneskin, not 2.X.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That Nerf happened when?... over a year ago? Let it go dude. The poster was clearly comparing Benison to 3.55 stoneskin, not 2.X.

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I was gonna say... stone skin was nerfed over a year ago. If it was recent I'd understand... but it's not. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Snip

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That's the point. I would take Stoneskin over Benison any day, because Stoneskin can actually be applied to more than one person a time, has a considerably longer runtime meaning it will actually be up when the person gets damage unlike Benison, and doesn't have a 30 second CD. And no, if both healers help topping off after a buster, Benison is not that dire, because the tank is out of danger zone very fast. So you are the one acting as if you are alone out there. Besides, you do know Stoneskin stacked with Adlo and Aspected Benefic, right? That was two layers of mitigation there. There is also no need to have shields up constantly. And pre-damage mitigation falls on anyone capable to do so, but hey, Square just stripped us of our only option, so yes, WHM is unable to do so because Benison is far too wonky a skill for it. Which is what I say this entire time.

Also, no need to get snappy here. Day was bad enough as is.

White mage is fine.

I tend to feel like I waste lillies because I have nothing to use them on at times, but I suppose it could be worse (not having any at all).

Plenary though; it just sucks. It's obviously not meant for group healing, just tank healing. Even then, it hardly ever procs. Half the time I don't even look at the spell to use or pay any attention to the stacks. Make it stack like lillies, 50% on cure I, 100% on cure II. You wont be spamming those spells on group players all the time, but you will be using them on tanks a decent amount. Also remove the goddmned timer, let us keep the stacks for emergency usage on tanks.

The rest of white mage? I am pretty happy with. Although losing an iconic skill like stoneskin hurt my feels.

Lillies makes me feel like i ALWAYS have assize when i need it (The 68 trait also isn't bad IMO since stacking crit isn't terribly hard to do).

Anyone claiming that WHM wouldn't be fine in dungeons didn't understand the class, or the changes. WHM should be seen as the premier dungeon healer. And either mandatory or irrelevant for raid content. If WHM becomes actively sought after for raids, it will be ONLY due to nerfs to SCH.

The problem with WHM is that 4.0 WHM is the same as 3.0, except that instead of stoneskin we have some RNG-gated bubble. There is nothing that WHM brings to the table that is different from what SCH or AST have, aside from slightly stronger personal hps and dps. That's it.

There is nothing that makes me want to play this class anymore, not least because SE gutted it and told me to be happy about the changes.

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

Lillies makes me feel like i ALWAYS have assize when i need it (The 68 trait also isn't bad IMO since stacking crit isn't terribly hard to do).

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20% chance on top of whatever your crit chance is? No, that is terrible. It's RNG on top of RNG.

I will admit that WHM isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be though.

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

Lillies makes me feel like i ALWAYS have assize when i need it (The 68 trait also isn't bad IMO since stacking crit isn't terribly hard to do).

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Probably because they brought down Assize's cooldown from 90s to 60s. Just to break down the imply, or lack thereof, Lilies have on it.

1 Lily: 58s (4%)
2 Lilies: 52s (10%)
3 Lilies: 48s (20%)

That's not exactly anything to brag over.