Going with the current information available to us, these two seem to have some of the highest synergy.
DRK Grit interaction with the rest of its kit is an incentive for main tanking for the largest portion of a fight without any real drawback in stance swapping except for MP and a GCD, where as PLD is looking to be the new king of tank dps and seem like it would largely benefit from spending more time on sword oath.
In a scenario where slashing debuff will no longer be the luxury it is currently and will be far more accessible outside of having a WAR present, with the latter having a penalty in stance swapping and not bringing group utility to compete with either PLD or DRK, how do you think things will fare for WAR in a more serious raid environment?
PLD + DRK synergy; WAR falling behind?
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06-10-2017, 01:00 AMophPLD + DRK synergy; WAR falling behind?
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06-10-2017, 01:05 AMLambdafish
If you don't bring a SAM or NIN, WAR is likely better than DRK. Ultimately, we can't answer this question yet because we don't have the final potencies, and the jobs haven't been tested to find their potential. I can see DRK and WAR being interchangable if I'm honest, with PLD being the new WAR.
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06-10-2017, 01:12 AMkonpachizaraki
it's going to be PLD+ 1 of the other 2
that's the very least that i can see happening
though IMO dual PLD will be better than PLD with 1 that isn't PLD -
06-10-2017, 01:14 AMLambdafishThe added mitigation isnt always necessary though, when fights allow it solo tanking might be the way to go. Perhaps even going PLD/SAM, taking advantage of third eyeQuote:
Originally Posted by konpachizaraki
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06-10-2017, 01:21 AMkonpachizarakiit is necessary when you haven't mastered the fight yet, especially since PLD is much better offensively now so they don't need to worry about not having warrior in it to act as a pseudo DPSQuote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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06-10-2017, 01:23 AMUltimatecalibur
I wouldn't be so certain about the Warrior falling behind.
Potencies and Beast gauge costs are not necessarily the same as what we have seen so far so the Paladin/Dark Knight/Warrior relative dps numbers are not set to what has been mathed out.
The utility Warrior is gaining is also likely being underestimated. Onslaught's ability to quickly engage/reengage during a fight should not be down played even with the changes to sprint. Shake It Off is likely to be surprisingly good now that the UI will have a white line over any debuffs can be cleansed. Inner Release's ability to spam Fell Cleaves is fairly visible but the Stun/Sleep/Bind/Heavy/Knockback immunity should not be underestimated. -
06-10-2017, 01:32 AMLaunchedThat's not the kind of "utility" people want. Divine Veil, Passage of Arms and Intervention are utility. Blackest Night is utility. We don't call DRG's Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive utility, or MNK's Shoulder Tackle. Their utility is Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, and Brotherhood: all things that actually help the group. WAR's new skills help slightly increase DPS uptime, but that's it. PLD and DRK will be able to pick up adds just fine without Onslaught (DRK even has Plunge), and no fight is going to have debuffs strong enough or often enough to make Shake it Off and Inner Release better over PLD or DRK. Be honest, how often does Tempered Will do more than just increase DPS uptime? Not much, because mechanics won't be designed around a skill only one tank has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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06-10-2017, 02:28 AMLyth
In 3.x, Cover was useless and everyone wanted a gap closer. In 4.x, gap closers are useless and everyone wants Cover. I'm trying to guess what 5.x's meta ability will be.
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06-10-2017, 02:33 AMUltimatecaliburOnly because Spineshatter Dive and Shoulder Tackle are not currently being used as gap closing stuns to prevent adds from moving closer. Fist of Earth is actually adding a Knockback to Shoulder Tackle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
Those are not utility. Those are dps buffs. Utility is stuff that helps without necessarily doing damage. Rescue, Warden's Paean, Interject, Leg Sweep, Arm's Length and other such things are utility.Quote:
Their utility is Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, and Brotherhood: all things that actually help the group.
Dark Knight and Warrior can now both cover that. Paladin will actually be the one far behind the others when it comes to picking up distant adds.Quote:
WAR's new skills help slightly increase DPS uptime, but that's it. PLD and DRK will be able to pick up adds just fine without Onslaught (DRK even has Plunge),
Not necessarily true. Consider what increased cleansable debuffs means for cleansing and check the Caster cross role list to see a new DoT cleansing cooldown.Quote:
and no fight is going to have debuffs strong enough or often enough to make Shake it Off and Inner Release better over PLD or DRK.
In fights with predictable forced movement like Titan, Sophia and Levi it can be a lifesaver. It makes eating mines in A6S much easier. When Binds and Heavies get applied it is great for getting out of stuff. The biggest problem with Tempered Will is the 3 min cooldown.Quote:
Be honest, how often does Tempered Will do more than just increase DPS uptime?
This is the key phrase you need to pay attention to.Quote:
Not much, because mechanics won't be designed around a skill only one tank has.
It is because only the Paladin had party protects like Cover that no content could be designed to expect it. Now both the Paladin and Dark Knight have tools to protect others.
Because only Dark Knight having Plunge, they could not design content that assumed one tank could instantly go to the other side of the arena to tank something far away. Now both Dark Knight and Warrior can do so.
Because only Paladin had Tempered Will, fights could not be designed with the assumption that one or more tanks can avoid binds/heavy/knockback. Now both Paladin and Warrior can do such. -
06-10-2017, 03:34 AMAshua
Nitpicking what your definition of utility matters little. Statics will min max which tanks bring the most that allows less healing/more damage overall to finish fights faster. Nothing more nothing less. Dark/paladin is looking to be the pairing at first glance but we cannot say until we are actually in the fights.
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06-10-2017, 04:08 AMAtreides
The utility that matters is in fact DPS buffs.... Sure you can call other things utility too but thats not really what matters for progressing, people want more damage to skip through phases and boost other DPS, this is why MNK was not popular in heavensward. He did not contribute to the damage as much as Dragoon and Ninja did. Mantra did not help either because again... this is not the kind of utility raiders look for.
The Utility Warrior brought in heavensward was the slashing resist debuff which helped the co-tank and Ninja aswell so he could use his higher potency skills instead of applying the debuff with Dancing Edge.
Also Path with the 10% less damage from the target durring Progress and the fact that Warrior themselves contributed alot of DPS to the group.
So as for now SE has taken everything from us that made us desirable, while I don't think this is so bad because let's be honest... throughout Heavensward we were irreplacable.
Then again I am kind of pissed about "Shake it off" being a high lvl Warrior skill... It should at last be an AoE to remove debuffs from everyone around you. Then it would deserve the spot but as it is now it's just insulting.
They buffed PLD which is a good thing BUT they went overboard at last from the informations we have right now from the developer build. I firmly believe that they have changed some things by now. -
06-10-2017, 05:03 AMHierroStopped reading right there. I want you to think long and hard about the likelyhood where there WON'T be a samurai, let alone a ninja. Sounds silly, right? I thought so too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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06-10-2017, 05:50 AMGalactimusCompletely disagree. Clemency is one of the greatest add picker-uppers in the game. One cast on yourself and every mob in the ENTIRE arena comes flocking to you. It's like a Flash with a radius of 100y (for any mob that's currently in battle.) Not only that but it generates aggro on mobs that can't be targeted yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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06-10-2017, 06:40 AMaqskerorokero
I would prefer fights when tank swap is not required but heavy damage to be pld solo tank, and drk/war pair if it does require tanks swap
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06-10-2017, 08:22 AMRaim
Why would you pick WAR if PLD is seeming to do more damage and have better raid and mitigation to use for the MT? They seem like the perfect OT now, and a good MT. WAR brings nothing to the table assuming your group has a SAM or NIN and they will. I mean maybe on farm you'll see other comps like DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR but their marginal personal DPS increase over Paladin, if that even exists now doesn't warrant them a spot.
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06-10-2017, 08:26 AMFernosaurI'm dying!!! This is gonna be my signature now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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06-10-2017, 11:49 AMkonpachizarakiexactly what i was thinking, dual PLD will be a thing more than PLD+ 1 of the 2 inferior tanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Raim
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06-10-2017, 03:21 PMUltimatecaliburPicking this nit is actually very important. People are confusing dps synergy with utility. DpS synergy is how much you can improve other party members ability to do dps. Utility is how many tools you have that can be used to deal with a variety of mechanics. The best dps synergy will get you nowhere if you are lacking the utility tools to handle a mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashua
A lot of players are missing that the tank rebalance in SB is making it so that all 3 tank combinations (Drk+Pld, Pld+Drk and War+Pld) will all have some access to all tank utility tools even if each composition has different amounts of access to those tools.
False. Raiders first need all the utility tools necessary to handle all mechanics in a fight. DpS does no good if the boss is applying a non-cleansable paralysis with an attack that can only be interrupted with silence. DpS does no good when you need to position adds and keep them there so that they can be petrified to block line of site for a mechanic. DpS doesn't help when a tank needs to eat multiple knockback mines quickly to avoid wiping the party. Having all the tools needed to handle mechanics comes first. Figuring out the job composition with the highest dps that covers all those tools comes afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
The monk's flaw in HW was redundant (-10% Int was covered by Drk, Silence was covered by Pld, Brd, Mch and Nin, pretty much everyone had one or more stuns) and useless (One-ilm punch's buff stripping wasn't useful enough to be noticed in any PvE fight) utilities and not enough dps to make up for lack of synergy with all other jobs.
The slashing resist debuff is synergy not utility.Quote:
The Utility Warrior brought in heavensward was the slashing resist debuff which helped the co-tank and Ninja aswell so he could use his higher potency skills instead of applying the debuff with Dancing Edge.
Storm's Path was the only utility Warrior really brought in HW (they also had a harpoon in Holmgang but that was not really used). It was strongQuote:
Also Path with the 10% less damage from the target durring Progress and the fact that Warrior themselves contributed alot of DPS to the group.
No, Warriors were replaceable. What you were was optimal due to the dps focused meta. Nothing a Warrior could do couldn't also be done by a Dark Knight or Paladin with Ninja support.Quote:
So as for now SE has taken everything from us that made us desirable, while I don't think this is so bad because let's be honest... throughout Heavensward we were irreplacable.
You only feel insulted because you are expecting higher level abilities to be inherently be better than lower level ones. HW gave you a lot of "crazy good" abilities during HW. Shake It Off is a solid ability and you are only disappointed with it because you are comparing it to Requiescat and Bloodspiller.Quote:
Then again I am kind of pissed about "Shake it off" being a high lvl Warrior skill... It should at last be an AoE to remove debuffs from everyone around you. Then it would deserve the spot but as it is now it's just insulting.
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06-10-2017, 03:57 PMPhoenicia
Just pointing out 1 thing:
WAR mitigates more damage than PLD, even if PLD can block magic damage. Reason: WAR has way more CDs to stack up. Been this way since ARR. Just convert their CDs to effective health and compare them. And now WAR gets rampart on top of their already superior arsenal. The only time PLD mitigates more damage than WAR is during Hallowed Ground, which is 10 seconds every 7 minutes, and when split over the course of a fight is still not enough to make up the difference between WAR and PLD.
Reason why WAR doesn't play defensively: It sacrifices too much damage to obtain said mitigation. One example: Inner Beast vs Fell Cleave. Also going from +5% in Deliverance to -25% in Defiance (biggest dip between 3 tanks). Also tank swaps make any difference in mitigation obsolete anyways. The difference between PLD and WAR mitigation is within 5~7% over a fight anyways.
And before you give me crap about shield block and shield oath, reducing damage isn't the only way to "mitigate" damage.
Assuming PLD will do 30% more DPS or so than the two other tanks is just napkin math really on numbers that Yoshi-P clearly stated are no where near final. Not to mention most of the tooltips were mistranslated and/or had absolutely wrong potency values (Fester being 200 potency but doing 50% more damage than Painflare's 200 potency is one example). I wouldn't jump the gun until the 16th of June.
PLD + DRK synergy is just something I don't get. DRK will get 1 shield move.. ONE... And it's basically a single target Divine Veil.. So bleh. Anything else that comes close to utility DRK has is just cross-role ability which is available to all three tanks. And based on the same napkin math that everyone is getting a kneejerk reaction to, DRK will be the lowest DPS tank.
As I said, I wouldn't fuss about it until the 16th of June comes out.
~Phoenicia~ -
06-10-2017, 04:33 PMkonpachizarakino shake it off is legit bad using or not using it will not change the warrior's life, it could've been a bit more useful if berserk wasn't changed and it will never have a moment when you can use that to save your life or be useful in a big way for that matterQuote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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06-10-2017, 09:50 PMClaire_PendragonJust wanted to point out WAR has this because Maim is +20%, which in 2.x acted as a DPS stance for them, and in 3.x made them do more than DRK in grit+DS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Otherwise I agree with everything you say.
EDIT: After doing the math -25% +20% is the opposite of what I said -20%+15% would be. The +2 potency was on DRK, not WAR.
I also want to explain that PLD "mitigates" more "passive dmg" out of the 3 tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
The trash dmg, auto attacks, etc.
But for tank busters, WAR usually handles them the best.
And Honestly, most bosses do garbage dmg until tank busters.
So in Savage, its not about mitigating dmg, it's about surviving tank busters.
A tank in full time DPS stances, no mitigation, even the weak ones, can be kept up til the end of the fight, if there is no tank buster, just fine.
Looking at DRK/WAR speed runs, they will rely on living dead/holmgang, just to save on CDs. (More so WAR, for more fell cleaves)
(Obviously not the most effective way to do this, as stacking CDs, while constant tank swapping is more effective.)
The point I'm trying to make, is that all a tank needs to do, is survive a tank buster. Not necessarily mitigate it.
(And example is WARs being able to increase max HP. If that max HP goes away, then they have effectively mitigated some dmg. If it remains like with defiance, then they technically didnt mitigate any dmg. But they did their job of surviving it.) -
06-10-2017, 11:35 PMAlphrasThe frustrating thing is that they wanted to remove these kind of abilities with the expansion...Quote:
Originally Posted by konpachizaraki
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06-11-2017, 04:08 AMPhoeniciaI dropped Maim from the calculation because it can be up whither you're in defiance or not. So in Defiance maim mitigates the 25% dip and take you back to 90% of base damage. In Deliverance you're at 126% of base damage (buffs stack multiplicatively). So instead of saying 36% in comparison to baseline, I made having maim a baseline and said there is a 30% damage variance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
Same thing for DRK where I considered Darkness' 15% damage increase baseline and DRK only loses 20% when they Grit.
You said in your own post that "trash" damage doesn't matter and whatever % of "trash" you mitigate is still trash and surviving tank busters is what mattered. But even then, whatever PLD "passively" mitigated, WAR and DRK mitigated as well via self heals and higher parry. But again this is not even worth discussing for the simple fact whatever % of 0 is still 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
But back to the topic, if surviving the tank busters is all that matters while dishing out the most damage, then unless the math on PLD doing 30% more damage over the other two is true, PLD will stay out of the meta as it is the worst out of the three.
The whole point out of my earlier post is that people should contain their knee-jerk reactions and not get their panties in twists until the actual raids, or at the very least the final patch notes come out live. -
06-11-2017, 05:58 AMClaire_PendragonI think I must have misunderstood what you were talking about, as this doesnt seem to relate to what I was saying. So I must have been thinking the wrong thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
(Otherwise Maim and Dark Side would have been comparable.)
EDIT: Ok rereading, I did, I thought you meant something else.
I was trying to be a bit more exaggeration/over simplifying, to get an idea across, but I'm confused where % of 0 is 0 came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
EDIT: I think I get what you mean now, if I assume correctly, you mean its "0" because if its irrelevant, then it should be treated as 0, correct?
I dont see how a tank with more survival of the 3 would make it worse than the other 2, while also including the early builds +30% more DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Did I misunderstand? -
06-11-2017, 11:29 AMPhoeniciaIn the first part, I was talking about why WAR tanks do not play defensively because of the DPS "dip" when they do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
In the second part, you got it right. :)
Third part: If the current math of PLD doing 30% more than WAR and PLD is WRONG and all tanks do the same damage: WAR holmgang every 3 minutes and DRK LD every 5 minutes will be better than PLD HG or just pure mitigating as the long CDs make it the worst.
Otherwise, if PLD DOES do 30% more damage, PLD + PLD is where it will be, and both DRK and WAR will spread the salt here on the forums. Better get prepare your salt containers for we're getting free salt! Also please refer to Salt-- I mean White Mage.
Alternatively, if raid damage reduction utility becomes important and/or OT helping MT mitigation, DRK and PLD will be the good OTs and WAR will be the bad one. But then again WAR and PLD looking to be better MTs than DRK. As I said earlier, all we have to do is just wait and see. Until then it's all pure speculations.
Cheers!
~Phoenicia~