As Current Info Stands Who Will Be Lamer in SB, MNK or WHM?

Really hope what we have seen is not what we get for these two classes but if I had to choose I think MNK is looking Iike the lamest of the lame.

how can anything top those lilies and confession stacks?!

In what way? Other than them not having much party synergy which now they do, Monks have always been in a good spot. As with Scholar not much about these jobs really need(ed) much changing. From 2.0 they have been very well made classes.

I still don't see THAT much of a problem with Monk honestly. Heck, it's the job I'm falling back on if WHM releases as bad as we think.

I like the idea of Chakra building as we fight, just that one thing is going to make Monks feel a lot more active. The new riddle skills are unfortunately just as useless as their fist counterparts (save Fire), and the heavy emphasis on shoulder tackle is still their weirdest thing, but I think they're pretty alright.

What remains to be seen is if SAM absolutely blows them out of the after in DPS, because the utility they obtained definitely isn't worth losing their high personal DPS.

And what about SMN?

MNK do more dmg than WHM, i think

MNK isn't exactly bad it's just, from limited knowledge, uninspired. More of the same that is kinda fine tuned and kinda questionable. Completely still in it's own playstyle even with RoF effecting haste.

WHM on the otherhand got **** by it's Lilly and Confession mechanic and the Role Skill's in one fell swoop. Not entirely comparable.

wait, why is Monk being considered lame? i thought it looked great

I'm the oddball of the community because I'm still playing whm and look forward to the changes (simply because there are changes granted)

As for monk... martial artist in RL so I'll always have it leveled... but I've hated monk since it's change after 1.0. Elemental wheel + elemental fist = the best experience ever.

Can't imagine hating it much more now

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

wait, why is Monk being considered lame? i thought it looked great

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Friend of mine who mains Monk went in-depth on why the initial glance isn't... what it seemed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...37#post4176837

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

wait, why is Monk being considered lame? i thought it looked great

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Because it is not totally overhauling itself into ultra monk supreme +! turbo edition!

(Personally, I also think monk looks great and I'm excited to play it! Just the OF loves making mountains from mole hills.)

Why would MNK be lame? It's more of the same plus extra utility. The changes to chakra look awesome and make it hella more useful.

Mnk didn't receive flashy wild new changes and abilities like other classes because Mnk has the smoothest and best gameplay of all the dps. The Mnk formula is pretty damn good as is, no need to fix what's not broke.

Interesting out look on MNK in this thread so far. Far contrast from multiple threads in dps forums where I don't think I've seen a positive remark about MNK changes.

Let the great debate continue!

Considering how "bad" Astro and Machinist were at the beginning of HW were and how strong they become later on I doubt Monk and WHM will be unplayable for too long (if they'll ever be that way)

Not to long and we will see. I will stick to Monk no matter what:)

afaik, people are just unhappy with the emphasis on shoudler tackle and the riddle skills post-6

while kind of forgetting all the QoL buffs, party utility, building for forbidden chakra passively, and monk being super strong to begin with

It's a fairly american thing to do to downplay all the good and exaggerate the bad, i think we get it from our politicians

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Friend of mine who mains Monk went in-depth on why the initial glance isn't... what it seemed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...37#post4176837

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As the one who wrote this essay on why Monk's new actions are varying levels of bad, I will say that White Mage definitely got the worse changes overall.

However, to those of you saying the Monk changes look fine/great, you're wrong.

Riddle of Fire's slow effect eliminates one of the core parts of Monk's design, its haste effect. It'd be a good DPS cooldown on Dragoon, Samurai or Warrior who are all about a slow build toward big hits. On Monk, which is all about medium strength hits at a constant fast pace, it just doesn't fit.

Riddle of Earth is an unnecessary extra button to Monk's kit to allow it to maintain its stacks through phase transitions. However, it won't work on phase transitions where you don't take unavoidable damage or ones where the time until the aoe is longer than the duration of GL3. Based on current fight design (and there's no reason this shouldn't be, Heavensward Design wasn't a huge departure from ARR's) this will be 95% of them. This is a wasted action that should have been something else and Perfect Balance's cooldown should have just been reduced to 90 seconds or so. In fact, the action with the same function on Samurai has a cooldown of 80 seconds, so it makes even less sense.

Tackle Mastery is garbage on the level of the Lilies, full stop. It was designed on the assumption that Monk's ever want to be out of Fists of Fire (we don't), and the effects of the Tackle are actively detrimental or useless. Earth Tackle moves the enemy out of a Monk's attack range, preventing us from DPSing it. Wind Tackle cuts the tackle's damage in half, but it gives us a second gap closer provided you don't switch back to Fists of Fire (which you will) or take more than 5 seconds before needing to use the gap closer again (which it probably will). That means it's a trait that functionally exists to add 30 potency to Shoulder Tackle, something they did for almost every Ninja and Dragoon GCD without using one of our new Traits.

Then all of our potencies ate a nerf equivalent to about 30-40 potency each, while Dragoon and Ninja saw uniform buffs.

Brotherhood and Deep Meditation are pretty good though, even if they could use a few tweaks.

Well maybe I should have clarified by what I meant as "lame". I was more thinking along the lines of uninspired/uninteresting as opposed to weak.

People seriously need to keep in mind that all of the info out on classes contained outdated information and mistranslated tooltips. I think it's a bit early to be making judgement passes on classes no one has even played yet.

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Originally Posted by Selova

People seriously need to keep in mind that all of the info out on classes contained outdated information and mistranslated tooltips. I think it's a bit early to be making judgement passes on classes no one has even played yet.

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It absolutely isn't, you don't necessarily need to have actually used the actions to know that the design behind the entire Lily System, Riddle of Earth, and Tackle Mastery is fundamentally broken at their core concepts. Riddle of Earth requires a DPS to be hit and assumes that Monk ever spends time out of Fists of Fire/attempts to incentivize leaving Fists of Fire by adding effects that are more detrimental than just the loss of damage from leaving Fists of Fire, meanwhile White Mage's lillies require using skills that you actually try and minimize the use of in most content. Designs for actions and traits like this is so bad to the point where it's arguably better to just scrap them rather than to tweak the numbers, but since they only actually received widespread feedback for these abilities two weeks before the game is going to launch, there isn't really any time for them to go back to the drawing board and give them worthwhile abilities like reworking how Lilies are acquired and giving White Mage Bravery as an action they can spend Lilies on or to replace Tackle Mastery with something like Positional Mastery and to replace Riddle of Earth with Hundred Fists or an actual attack rather than a Cool Down that belongs on a tank.

Dark Knight should be in here too. Those three seem to definitely be the "losers" of Stormblood in terms of the Job balancing game.

As for which of the three got hosed the most, I'm leaning toward White Mage myself.

So much for the MNK expansion :(

While I'm hoping they will realize what's wrong with having a skill that depends on you (a DPS) getting hit for it to work and change it, nothing they do to shoulder tackle mastery will make it less lame, shoulder tackle is not a core MNK skill and I don't know where they got that from, the person who designed that skill clearly doesn't play MNK.

So ignoring the riddles and shoulder tackle all we get is a copy of b4b that slows us down for no reason, the generation of extra chakras that I'm hoping can offset the potency nerf on all MNK actions + loss of ToD, and a party buff that doesn't buff the MNK, just helps with the previous chakra generation.

I honestly expect some jobs to undergo an overhaul in the coming patches. Putting aside White Mage and Monk, people have already mathed out Paladin utterly butchering Warrior on both damage and utility; ironically reserving the scenario both jobs underwent throughout Heavensward. Of course, numbers can be more easily changed than mechanics, and we still don't know the finalized versions yet. I just hope the devs don't wait for a year or until the next expansion to address potential issues.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

wait, why is Monk being considered lame? i thought it looked great

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Its raid DPS contribution relative to its competing melee classes has decreased going into Stormblood, changing it from competitive only if the Monk's gear and/or skill is greater than his raid's to scarcely competitive at all.

Its new mechanics massively decrease control by

• removing stanceless skills from its otherwise cyclical rotation, where they had previously allowed one to perfect his timing of reapplications;
• reducing internal balance, which had allowed the Monk to somewhat resort or reprioritize skills in the short-term for longer term gains;
• increasing RNG dependence, through the introduction of Deep Meditation's 30% chance on crit of generating 50 future potency via The Forbidden Chakra casts;
• and reducing potential downtime GCD usage by up to 80%, a thus far Monk-unique mechanic, since one cannot exceed 5 stacks and may enter downtime with 4 already auto-generated.

In addition, many of its new mechanics are fundamentally flawed or counter-intuitive. Riddle of Earth stands as an alternative to Tornado Kick, allowing one to maintain stacks rather than consume them before extended downtime, but it functions only if hit during said downtime with less than GL's duration between the hit taken and becoming able again to strike the boss. Should designs thus far continue, this would be unusable for some 85% of fights. In the remaining 15% it makes Tornado Kick effectively obsolete. No new skill should be so worthless, nor so redundant. Riddle of Fire, at its corrected tooltip, becomes obligatory, but runs counter to what most Monks seem to make a Monk a Monk — it's attack speed. Riddle of Wind and Tackle Mastery spend a skill and three traits for the option of increased mobility as an extended CD should Shoulder Tackle already be refreshed, at DPS cost. One may hope that the Earth-form Shoulder Tackle would at least see mechanical use in Stormblood, but given that only 2 other jobs share the knockback effect (MCH - Blank, and WHM - Fluid Aura), this seems unlikely (Garuda's pet variant still being too unreliable to be considered viable in the hands of most players). 3 skills and 3 traits spent to next to no, or even outright conflicting, advantage in play.

Both will be fine, and if any class turns out too weak in Stormblood then SE will just buff them back up again.

No class is going to die. Stop doomsaying.

I don't dps but my wife mains a MNK and she is pissed off by with all this, they got kneecapped in the potency of every damage ability they have, like 2-5% across the board

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Originally Posted by Dameron

Both will be fine, and if any class turns out too weak in Stormblood then SE will just buff them back up again.

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Monk was weak in Heavensward, so was Paladin and this didn't happen. Instead Monk was shoved to the wayside in 3.2 while Ninja and Dragoon actually got buffs (Ninja directly to their AOE and Dragoon by proxy via Machinist and Bard buffs) despite Monk still being the weakest Melee Job. Paladin similarly only got bandaid fixes.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

Both will be fine, and if any class turns out too weak in Stormblood then SE will just buff them back up again.

No class is going to die. Stop doomsaying.

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Paladin, Monk and White Mage (after 3.4) would all like to have a word with you.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Paladin, Monk and White Mage (after 3.4) would all like to have a word with you.

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And yet there are still plenty of Paladins, Monks and White Mages around, nor has any group actively struggled solely because they included any of these classes.

No, not every class is going to be as strong as the others. It's practically an impossibility in an MMO. But that doesn't mean that the weaker classes are completely unviable, like people are currently painting White Mage to become in Stormblood. Square Enix knows what it's doing, and it's not going to alienate an entire portion of their playerbase by making an entire class literally useless. Have some more faith in them, and just wait how things will turn out once Stormblood is actually here.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

And yet there are still plenty of Paladins, Monks and White Mages around, nor has any group actively struggled solely because they included any of these classes.

No, not every class is going to be as strong as the others. It's practically an impossibility in an MMO. But that doesn't mean that the weaker classes are completely unviable, like people are currently painting White Mage to become in Stormblood. Square Enix knows what it's doing, and it's not going to alienate an entire portion of their playerbase by making an entire class literally useless. Have some more faith in them, and just wait how things will turn out once Stormblood is actually here.

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If by plenty you mean "Significantly fewer using the Jobs for end game" then sure.

Frankly, I would have a little more faith in SE if the additions they made to Monk and White Mage didn't run so contrary to the way the Job's play and they didn't have a record of leaving Job's in the dirt for 2+ years.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

And yet there are still plenty of Paladins, Monks and White Mages around, nor has any group actively struggled solely because they included any of these classes.

No, not every class is going to be as strong as the others. It's practically an impossibility in an MMO. But that doesn't mean that the weaker classes are completely unviable, like people are currently painting White Mage to become in Stormblood. Square Enix knows what it's doing, and it's not going to alienate an entire portion of their playerbase by making an entire class literally useless. Have some more faith in them, and just wait how things will turn out once Stormblood is actually here.

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I was in the 1.0 western beta. In the forums, the majority of the community were very vocal over their concern for the state of the game mere months from release. Yet without fail there were people who would show up in these threads and admonish these people for their concern, telling them they should feel honored SE had allowed them into the beta at all, and that obviously the beta we were playing wasn't the finished product, and we should just have faith in SE. As the discontent in the forums grew, an official statement which was entirely infrequent finally came, which said that SE had an in-house testing group, thanked us for our concern, and told us we were really just stress testers. We all know how 1.0 went down..

Later, when yoshida took over, he stated a large part of his success came from listening to the western players because they were far more specific in why something didn't work..

So maybe let people voice their concern. This game may be created by SE, but it was built by a community.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

And yet there are still plenty of Paladins, Monks and White Mages around, nor has any group actively struggled solely because they included any of these classes.

No, not every class is going to be as strong as the others. It's practically an impossibility in an MMO. But that doesn't mean that the weaker classes are completely unviable, like people are currently painting White Mage to become in Stormblood. Square Enix knows what it's doing, and it's not going to alienate an entire portion of their playerbase by making an entire class literally useless. Have some more faith in them, and just wait how things will turn out once Stormblood is actually here.

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Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? First you state in a very matter of fact way that weak classes will get buffed/balanced than when people show you instances of that not happening in timely manner in past you say its okay to not balance them at all.

Also it is not always about weak/strong but also interesting gameplay. Monk is going to have the same rotation for 2 expansion now with no evolution of game play at all. In fact it is devolving in gameplay with the things they are stripping.

If people don't know the issues with MNK then check the dps forum. SE say they want to cut useless stuff but give shoulder tackle extra stuff like a double tackle and a knock back in stances that will hardly be used and the extras aren't really useful at all. Then riddle of earth that requires the MNK to be hit,which is very situational. Shorter cool down on tornado kick? Because that was used loads? Just a lot of useless changes that don't add much.

What the JP players think of melee DPS balance in SB.

https://i.redd.it/ebkh8eiqk33z.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ormblood_in_a/

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Originally Posted by alimdia

What the JP players think of melee DPS balance in SB.

https://i.redd.it/ebkh8eiqk33z.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ormblood_in_a/

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The samurai killing the mnk seems about right.

I feel like many don't seem to see the truth behind SMN.
You know, our AoE rotation consists of spamming ruin now.
Our single target rotation is ruin spam.
While demi bahamut is out we spam ruin.
There is so much ruining going around with SMN that I think, SMN will become the most boring job the earth has ever seen. Unless demi bahamut is summoned and you can act like you have variety in your rotation but you really don't but you look great every 2 mins for 15 seconds. So yea.

Lamest Job award will definitely go to SMN. the job is ......ruined.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

how can anything top those lilies and confession stacks?!

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Love YoshiP and his dev team but holy crap those are bad. I honestly don't think anything can top those.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Love YoshiP and his dev team but holy crap those are bad. I honestly don't think anything can top those.

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I actually like the lillies, reminds me a bit of other games and their classes. I won't main healer anymore but I'll defiantly chose my whm a bit more often for boring DF roulette's compared to the past. But maybe I am the only one that like stupid glittery things like that lol

WHM hands down.

WHM, from what we've seen, looks like a mess.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

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As first glance, while not a MNK main.. My understanding of Riddle of Fire's speed-/damage+ is to synergise with Brotherhood.
Slowing attack speed in order to weave in more Forbiddens, on top of the damage amp of the Forbidden spam that you will get.

The shoulder tackle adjustments may not really achieve much, and probably don't have that many uses for the most part, however that's basically the only downside in my opinion, and it isn't even a "nerf".. It's just a not-very-useful tool.

They got tools to increase their damage and a bit of raid utility.
They didn't really lose anything, they only gained a few extra tools.
I agree with some others, why change something that's working? It seems fine to me.

In my opinion, and correct me if I am wrong but you are looking at all of the flashy changes to other jobs, and just want more new toys to play with. At the end of the day, MNK got about as many useful tools as the other jobs did. While they got a couple of questionable skills (Tackle mastery), they still have a decent amount of utilities that enhance their damage.

If you are worried about the loss of B4B, just remember that a lot of jobs also lost internal release. MNK is getting a damage amp, and still has IE.

I am worried less about the state of MNK than I am worried about the state of WAR and NIN personally.

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Originally Posted by Cherub

SMN will become the most boring job the earth has ever seen.

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SMN wasn't already the most boring job to begin with? :P

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Originally Posted by Dameron

And yet there are still plenty of Paladins, Monks and White Mages around, nor has any group actively struggled solely because they included any of these classes.

No, not every class is going to be as strong as the others. It's practically an impossibility in an MMO. But that doesn't mean that the weaker classes are completely unviable, like people are currently painting White Mage to become in Stormblood. Square Enix knows what it's doing, and it's not going to alienate an entire portion of their playerbase by making an entire class literally useless. Have some more faith in them, and just wait how things will turn out once Stormblood is actually here.

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All three suffered noticeable declines in Savage. Paladins were outright excluded from A12S by an enormous margin and struggled to find consistent parties as a whole. White Mage and Monk fared better yet both lagged behind their respective counterparts, though Monk less so than White Mage.

I do want to stress all were viable. Monk was fairly decent even despite its utility shortcomings. That all being said, why should people of those respective classes settle for "good enough"? While correct, it's impossible to balance everything without the jobs being homogenized. That doesn't mean they cannot be better. Summoner and Black Mage were standing examples of this throughout Creator. Neither were "meta" yet remained strong alternatives many players stuck with. Monks and White Mages are concerned not because they may not be "meta" but due to their new mechanics seemingly having fundamental flaws in concept. Like SpeckledBurd said, why are mechanics tied to fists when Monks still have no reason to ever switch out of Fire? Why are Lilies based around the least efficient healing spell? That has nothing to do with meta or even savage raiding and just underwhelming design.