DRK needs a revision

I really hope that this wont be the final build, because some of the design choices are lame and makes me NOT want to tank.

Half resources just to drop a tank stance?
Scourge was easy to manage as it was 30sec
Blood price nerf is stupid, but straight foward I guess.
Damage penalty on tank stance is still a thing. Why?
Dark Arts is now 2sec and we basically haveto double weave oGCDs
5 aoes, why?
Etc...
Anyone else NOT happy with the changes or am I just over looking something. Please help me understand these design choices.

There is no resource loss for dropping Grit on DRK unlike switching stances for the other two. Why in the world would there not be a damage penalty on the tank stances? Otherwise you would have no reason to every leave it.

You don't lose half your blood when you drop grit who told you that ? I wan't you to show me where you get your false information from, PLD and WAR lose lots of gauge, not Drk.

You need a dmg reduction in tank stance, it's called TANK STANCE, not Damage stance ?

Unleash, Abyssal drain, Salted Earth, that's 3 aoe's not 5. You want to play a tank with no Aoe ? tell me how well you would hold aggro.

Stop being a crybaby, you haven't even played it yet.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Unleash, Abyssal drain, Salted Earth, that's 3 aoe's not 5. You want to play a tank with no Aoe ? tell me how well you would hold aggro.

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you are forgetting Quietus and Dark Passenger, DRK has 5 aoe's, not 3.

however, being the aoe tank is nothing to complain over.

but if the theory crafting is correct DRK doesn't make enough damage to compete with PLD, with worse defensive tools on top of that. not sure about utility, but PLD has a lot too. depends if the former PVP dmg buff from Last Survivor actually find it's way into PVE or not. let's wait and see^^

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Originally Posted by Raim

There is no resource loss for dropping Grit on DRK unlike switching stances for the other two. Why in the world would there not be a damage penalty on the tank stances? Otherwise you would have no reason to every leave it.

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My mistake on that I assumed that all tank stances worked the same due to balancing.
Blood Weapon is still a thing and now you can extend it.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

I really hope that this wont be the final build, because some of the design choices are lame and makes me NOT want to tank.

Half resources just to drop a tank stance?
Scourge was easy to manage as it was 30sec
Blood price nerf is stupid, but straight foward I guess.
Damage penalty on tank stance is still a thing. Why?
Dark Arts is now 2sec and we basically haveto double weave oGCDs
5 aoes, why?
Etc...
Anyone else NOT happy with the changes or am I just over looking something. Please help me understand these design choices.

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no it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You need a dmg reduction in tank stance, it's called TANK STANCE, not Damage stance ?

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No we don't. It changes nothing about how we play.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Stop being a crybaby, you haven't even played it yet.

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Don't need to play it when the rotation, abilities, potency, etc is all out there to be speculated over. If it's final, we're going to do less DPS than PLD, have less overall mitigation, less utility than WAR, etc.

Need to drastically change some potency on our weaponskills to not make this PLD 2.0 all over again. And we have 5 AoE. One is a dot tick AoE (SE) that can stack with the others. But do you really need 4 more? DP, AD, Q, and Unleash. Unleash for gathering, AD for spamming, SE to drop on the mob, and DP because it was an efficient way to use mana over a DA on CD. So Q is literally useless. It's stronger, sure...but do we NEED to keep adding AoE in for DRK? No. They could have done better.

If things stand as they were revealed, DRK doesn't need to be played to know it's under powered. The list of CD's, Potency, combos, etc can be calculated out and speak for themselves.

I seriously need to get off these forums till SB hits. All these doom and gloom threads are gettin to me. The theory Crafters have made their points and said their pieces. Can we stop with this crap now and pick it back up when we're all 100% sure that it's actually garbage after we've played it?

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

I seriously need to get off these forums till SB hits. All these doom and gloom threads are gettin to me. The theory Crafters have made their points and said their pieces. Can we stop with this crap now and pick it back up when we're all 100% sure that it's actually garbage after we've played it?

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Its because the thing is they claimed they wanted to make the jobs more accessible , and they really failed on many jobs , and they kinda lied to they claimed they would get rid of useless skills. But instead the got rid of really good ones on many jobs , these changes seem to really contradict themselves alot .

I don't think that the potencies are important at the moment. The point of the media tour was to act as a proof of concept to illustrate how the abilities work. It's also difficult to assess because the devs are designing this from the viewpoint of raid content that they have been actively testing for months. We just have potencies which may be outdated, no damage formula, and the assumption that this raid tier will play out the same way as before. The fact that Bloodsplitter ignores the damage penalty of Grit would be irrelevant in Creator Savage, where you don't need any Grit uptime at all. If the mitigation requirements on the next raid are significantly higher and force ShO/Defiance/Grit usage, our perceptions may change entirely.

What is significant, however, is that the ability concepts are relatively fixed for the next two years or so. Potencies, effects, and recasts can change. I think this is what we should focus on at this point.

I don't really mind losing Scourge and Delirium, so long as the dps loss from losing Scourge is compensated for elsewhere. Scourge is muscle memory at this point if you were practising it, but I recognise that it does expand the dps disparity for newer players without really adding any challenge to experienced players. The INT down loss was for the best, and the increased reliance on Souleater and the resulting potency increase are nice. The biggest issue here is that the healing on Soul Eater is still dependent on Grit, and DRK has no other form of self healing. I couldn't care less if we don't have an Equilibrium or Clemency equivalent, so long as we could squeeze even Storm's Path level healing out of Souleater out of Grit, if only for the purposes of soloing content more effectively, like the other two tanks.

The animations will be missed, though.

The loss of Reprisal is a bigger issue. In Heavensward, each tank had access to a raid mitigation move, between Divine Veil, Storm's Path, and Reprisal. The change to Reprisal presents two problems. First, PLD retains access to Divine Veil and also gains Passage of Arms. The ability to cross-class Reprisal on top of this gives PLD a fairly large surplus of raid mitigation. Second, the counter attack was a signature ability, which was subsequently copied over to Shield Swipe. DRK lost the ability, and PLD kept it.

I think part of the problem that people have with the shared role actions is that DRK was more dependent on cross-class abilities than PLD or WAR in Heavensward. So when you remove an ability like Mercy Stroke or Foresight from WAR, you end up double taxing DRK. Meanwhile, the abilities removed from DRK don't influence PLD or WAR, because they were not cross-class. The end result is that DRK has fewer actions than the other tanks after the pruning.

The Blackest Night is an incredible cooldown. It might even be the best resource-based mitigation ability in the game, and it encourages mastery of fight timings and a more active defensive style compared to press-and-forget. The trade-off is that if TBN is balanced as a dps gain, it's functionally just Infuriate with a bonus shield. You just activate it whenever it's up. If it's balanced as a dps loss, it becomes undesirable to use when off-tanking. If it's a dps loss, I'd be more willing to spend a DA cost on top of TBN's base cost to make it party-wide as OT, functionally acting as a much more costly Divine Veil on a shorter recast.

Dark Mind is in a really weird place at the moment. The base 15% magic mitigation on a 60 second recast is still really nice, but when will you DA this, now that you have TBN? If you TBN + DM, you have a 20% shield and 15% magic mitigation. If you DA DM, then you gain 30% magic mitigation for the same cost. The only time I see DA DM being used is if you have a multi-hit magic tankbuster, or if you need to stack both TBN and DA DM (but this is expensive and seems like overkill). I feel like this needs to be reworked somehow, especially after the PLD changes to Sheltron.

One of the factors that offsets DRK's strong resource-based mitigation is the fact that it has less access to free mitigation cooldowns than the other two tanks, so you'll end up sacrificing dps to mitigate (this is an issue when you're playing a tank that doesn't intrinsically provide the highest dps). Shadow Wall is still significantly weaker than Vengeance and even Sentinel, despite the fact that WARs now have access to Rampart as well. Living Dead remains the most healer intensive ultimate defensive ability, despite the fact that DRK still has the least amount of self-healing out of any tank. I would pay any amount of resources, be it MP or blood, to be able to remove the Walking Dead effect myself.

Bloodspiller and Quietus are nice, but this is functionally Fell Cleave and Decimate an expansion later. What differentiates them? Do they hit harder but less often? Or are they more spammable but hit for less? Failing either of these, can they offer something unique, such as more lifesteal? I wouldn't mind these abilities being relatively weaker, even in spite of getting them two years later, if they provided me with additional utility, such as healing out of Grit.

Delirium is also in a strange place. We already have lots of skills that restore MP, and the change to Darkside makes MP management significantly easier. If the goal was just to allow you to exchange between blood and MP at a roughly equivalent rate, then the cooldown needs to be much shorter. If the goal was to give you a dps boost on a long cooldown, then either you need to gain more MP on the conversion (2400 MP just about breaks even with 50 blood, and Sole Survivor gives you more MP for on the same recast for free if you use it correctly), or you need a much longer extension to Blood Price and Weapon. I know that a lot of this hinges on Bloodsplitter's final potency, but I don't understand the function of the new Delirium on a conceptual level.

Overall, I think that conceptually we're moving in a good direction, but there are still a number of big quality of life issues that need to be addressed. The balance is difficult to gauge without hands-on testing and we probably won't know for sure until we get into the raids ourselves. That being said, I have some worries, and this could go very well or very poorly.

It does change how you play. The game has built in stance dancing and its intended. People who stay in tank stance the entire fight are not playing optimally. They have skills like Blood Price that now require Grit, while other skills do full potency when not in Grit. Its intentional that you are encouraged to change/drop tank stances on the tanks when you feel its safe to do so. Thats a mechanic in itself, and I don't see tanks getting the Cleric Stance treatment in the future because then offtanking would be awkward.

Think about it...PLD needed a revision at the start of 3.0, and possibly gets it now in 4.0, so wait?

I know that you say this in jest, but most of these problems have been outstanding from DRK's inception in 3.x.

Not that I necessarily think that PLD is free from issues, either. The design philosophy for PLD has always been to provide more mitigation at the cost of less damage. The problem is that this forces an environment in which you swap between PLD and DRK based on whether you need PLD's extra mitigation, or whether you can get away without it.

I'm actually not sure that this type of thinking has changed, especially if PLD's dps ends up being tuned lower due to these fancy new mitigation moves. It's actually in all tanks favour to get the balance right, in order to prevent situations in which you have to hop between two main jobs on a fight by fight basis. I wasn't a fan of HW's PLD/DRK slot and WAR slot. I want two tank slots.

My one big concern from looking at the kit for drk is there's too much behind dark arts now, almost everything can be darkarts in our dps combo and our mp recovery is halfed by being able to use only one of our blood weapon/price buff.

I'll have to see come the final build but right now drk looks like it's a bit off balanced in the mp it needs verus the mp it gets back

I for one would take the darkarts potencies on blood skills and make them the regular potencies.
I would also reduce dark passenger's mp along with the blackest night to not cost the same as a dark arts
maybe a half a darkarts will a longer cooldown on night

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Originally Posted by Raim

It does change how you play. The game has built in stance dancing and its intended. People who stay in tank stance the entire fight are not playing optimally. They have skills like Blood Price that now require Grit, while other skills do full potency when not in Grit. Its intentional that you are encouraged to change/drop tank stances on the tanks when you feel its safe to do so. Thats a mechanic in itself, and I don't see tanks getting the Cleric Stance treatment in the future because then offtanking would be awkward.

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False. Stance Dancing was not intended play, it was emergent play resulting from 3.X builds that made enmity generation meaningless. Stance Changing based on needs of the fight (be they tank swaps or add spawns) was intended. Treating Tank Stance as a cooldown was not.

Sword Oath and Shield Oath originally interrupted combos while costing a gcd and Warrior lost it's Wrath stacks when it exited Defiance. Grit has a fairly high MP cost intended to dissuade Dark Knights from swapping in and out of it to much.

Blood Price was originally intended as the Dark Knight's tank stance MP recovery method with Blood Weapon being the dps stance MP recovery method as it was locked out of Grit. Players were the ones who found a way to use both when tanking out of Grit.

Locking blood price behind grit is the developers way of telling you to stay in grit 90% of the time. They don't want that BS of tanking without grit anymore and all of these changes prove that.

Im sorry, but I dont consider Unleash an AoE anymore.

Half threat (lower threat than abyssal drain), less than half the dmg of abyssal drain, for most of the MP cost, and only targets around u, not ranged?

There is no longer a reason to ever use it at or after Lv56.

MAYBE with the proc, for free MP cost.
(but even then, I will never see that)

Since the idea was to reduce the number of skills, I wonder why they didn't simply fuse Unleash and Abyssal Drain

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Second, the counter attack was a signature ability, which was subsequently copied over to Shield Swipe. DRK lost the ability, and PLD kept it.

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Paladin has had shield swipe as a counter from block since 2.0. They just moved it off the GCD later. Monk also had lolHaymaker off of evades. I'd hardly call this a signature ability of Dark Knight outside of the debuff it placed. You're better off talking about Low Blow and its reset trait for that, I think.
With that said, while I have a higher opinion of TBN than you (it basically looks good for dealing with stuff like tank busters, a7s lightning beams, and all sorts of other wacky single target stuff during progression), I do agree that Dark Mind is in a really weird place. I could see it being 30% without DA, and DA turning it into a group 10~15% or so. Cooldown is probably too short for that, though. Either that or give it some weird synergy effect with your team's spell casters (you gain MP when they cast? idk). Or they could have DADM max out the blood gauge when you take magic damage. Something like that.
Can't say I'm a fan of Delirium (design-wise that is, it might perform well) either. One of my big problems with DRK in 3.x was the boring combo paths since you never had to Power Slash. With the removal of Scourge and Delirium, DRK is basically a 2.0 paladin with Dark Fell Cleave and some extra oGCDs.
I think DRK will end up performing fine, but the gameplay changes are weird.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

I seriously need to get off these forums till SB hits. All these doom and gloom threads are gettin to me. The theory Crafters have made their points and said their pieces. Can we stop with this crap now and pick it back up when we're all 100% sure that it's actually garbage after we've played it?

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The average player doesn't post on these forums. If they are irritated with the game, they don't provide feedback. They quit.

That's why Squeenix gives us this medium. They know how easy it is to lose players, and Yoshi P acknowledged the forums in the LL. It isn't doom and gloom, it's concerned players fearful of the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

With the removal of Scourge and Delirium, DRK is basically a 2.0 paladin with Dark Fell Cleave and some extra oGCDs.
I think DRK will end up performing fine, but the gameplay changes are weird.

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It's sad that Dark Arts has exactly the same effect on Syphon Strike and SoulEater. If that was different DRK would have the interesting option of customizing its own combo even with only three WS.

For example, Syphon Strike could absord HP instead of MP with Dark Arts, and SoulEater could have two new effects wether you use Dark Arts or not.
3 skills, 4 combos !

Basically a dps type player worried about a tank job... Solution? Change job...

For a normal tank holding aggro is first, followed by staying alive ( make party stress less), then pull out much dps as one can.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Basically a dps type player worried about a tank job... Solution? Change job...

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Other than jobs pull out more DPS, which is half the problem.

Also, do you seriously want LESS tanks in already bad queue times with the release of more DPS? This is not the solution to or problem. It's balance.

I'm underwhelmed by the Job changes for Dark Knight. While our total DPS might end up fine (Bloodspiller, the 5% increase on Darkside, and the blood gauge in general might make a huge difference), I feel like none of the changes addressed any of the existing problems with Dark Knight, in favor of simply adding a gauge similar to the Warriors Inner Beast gauge (offering a Fell Cleave, Decimate, and a MP restore option), except we interact with it less.

In terms of problems to address:

• Living Dead is still the hardest to use "Emergency" option, requiring the most Healer intervention to be effective and proving useless without lots of coordination
• Our AOE situation, while strong, is a mess. We already had superfluous skills with both Unleashed and Abyssal Drain, which would have been excellent contenders for a combine, but instead they made one completely useless. While Quietus might be fun, it doesn't feel especially necessary.
• The Power Slash combo still feels terrible to use. You not only lose out on a significant amount of potency, but also MP restore and health. In fact, it got even worse, since Power Slash doesn't provide additional Blood Gauge like Souleater does. Adding some MP restore or some other effect would have made it not feel so gross.
• Stance Dancing is still awkward. Between the GCD and MP cost, going in and out of Grit doesn't feel right. Perhaps outgoing damage will drastically increase in Stormblood, encouraging us to just stay in Grit, but considering Blood Weapon is still unusable while in Grit, we're seemingly encouraged to drop out of it as well.
• Dark Mind is now pretty much the only major Tank Cooldown focused on a particular damage type. While it still seems useful, it just seems odd after Paladin got effective against all damage types, and Warrior always was.
• Aside from the old Delirium and Reprisal (which all tanks have now), Dark Knights always struggled to provide additional utility when not in the Main Tank role. While Blackest Night might provide some of that, they still feel lacking. Some kind of damage buff (possibly Sole Survivor?) might give us a real edge.

I'm not confident that Dark Knight is in a bad spot exactly, as "Blackest Night" seems to have a lot of utility, our DPS might end up fine (and the final potencies are still under revision), and the Darkside drain will make MP management easier, but I don't feel like our previous issues were addressed. Considering how phenomenal the Paladin changes are, fixing their major weaknesses while further emphasizing their Holy Knight identity, Dark Knight seems to have received very little attention.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

simply adding a gauge similar to the Warriors Inner Beast gauge

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Yeah, the gauge feel a little shoehorned...

First, it's the only tank gauge that's not tied to an existing skill, and thus, above lvl 60. And second, it's doesn't really fit into DRK's lore.

What could have been interesting, IMO, would have been a Darkness Gauge, obtained with Darkside. This gauge would have filled overtime and only be reduced by using Dark Skills (Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, etc...).
The higher the gauge, the more powerful your skills are, but let it fill completely and you'll receive the Down for the Count debuff for a few seconds (Like the DRK lvl30 quest) emptying the gauge and canceling Darkside.

The trick would be to keep the Gauge at a certain level and managing your MP so that you always have a way to reduce your Darkness. And each Dark Skills would have a different "cost" on the Darkness gauge.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, the gauge feel a little shoehorn...

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They need to come up with something fancy looking so drks wouldn't feel left out when they see other jobs' gauges. :p

I do agree that drk's gauge seems to be added just for the sake of adding a gauge.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I do agree that drk's gauge seems to be added just for the sake of adding a gauge.

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Same with PLD and WHM tbh. They're just gauges for the sake of it, don't really add anything to the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Same with PLD and WHM tbh. They're just gauges for the sake of it, don't really add anything to the jobs.

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True. At least with warrior it's just a reskin of the stack system, and tracking a number would be more practical than counting 10 dots (especially since with the new lv 70 skill we'll have "half" stacks too).

At least give us Scourge back SE. For the love of Hydaelyn! It was perfect.

They are purposefully making it more of a hassle to "stance dance" because stance dancing was never an intended gameplay mechanic for DRK. Hell, that's why they put it on the GCD and added an unattractive MP cost to Grit in the first place.

That's not to say that they don't expect you to drop out of Grit for certain times or mechanics while tanking... but that's a far cry from stance dancing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

They are purposefully making it more of a hassle to "stance dance" because stance dancing was never an intended gameplay mechanic for DRK. Hell, that's why they put it on the GCD and added an unattractive MP cost to Grit in the first place.

That's not to say that they don't expect you to drop out of Grit for certain times or mechanics while tanking... but that's a far cry from stance dancing.

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the devs just gona have to get over like what they expect people to do and let people just play and enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

the devs just gona have to get over like what they expect people to do and let people just play and enjoy the game.

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Now why can't the players do the same?

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Originally Posted by Marz_kid_EST

At least give us Scourge back SE. For the love of Hydaelyn! It was perfect.

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In order to give Scourge back, you're gonna have to convince them to give other jobs their one button dot back

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

True. At least with warrior it's just a reskin of the stack system, and tracking a number would be more practical than counting 10 dots (especially since with the new lv 70 skill we'll have "half" stacks too).

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Yeah, it makes sense for WAR, it makes sense for most jobs to be fair. It's just very disappointing that the most obviously tacked on ones belong to tanks and healers, especially after we were told we're not getting new tanks and healers because the current ones are getting special attention.

2 years and the best they could do was oath gauge and blood gauge, gauges that interact with less than half a dozen abilities across both jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

..

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Ya, and when they first mentioned the UI additions way back, they explicitly mentioned Dark Knight and how their UI will help visualize Darkside. Huh

What they meant to say was they're wiping out DS management entirely and enjoy this 2-stack resource for redundant GCD attacks.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Paladin has had shield swipe as a counter from block since 2.0. They just moved it off the GCD later. Monk also had lolHaymaker off of evades. I'd hardly call this a signature ability of Dark Knight outside of the debuff it placed. You're better off talking about Low Blow and its reset trait for that, I think.

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Shield Swipe had some identity issues. In 2.0 it was a GCD pacification move requiring a block proc, and had more in common with PLD's interrupt moves (Stun, Silence). Because higher level mobs were immune, it eventually found a niche as a TP conservation tool. In 3.0 the addition of Goring and RA made Swipe a dps loss, and it functioned as a low TP enmity tool until they made it similar to Reprisal in 3.1. They probably could have skipped a few steps in this process, but Reprisal's success was the inspiration that made the skill what it is today. Even if there weren't any utility effects attached, Reprisal and Shield Swipe would still both feel incredibly satisfying to press.

If PLD's aesthetic is about shielding your allies from harm, DRK is about seeking retribution. We're more likely to break an opponent's arm to soften an incoming blow, instead of blocking the hit. You could replace pretty much any of the old parry proc requirements with "on taking damage" and you'd be thematically accurate. Blood Price is pretty good in this regard, although I do think that there was a missed opportunity in not being able to apply the effect to another player, so that you can let their pain fuel your rage. Edgy. I just want to see more of DRK's toolkit go this route. TBN is definitely a step in this direction, and it's a good one.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

With that said, while I have a higher opinion of TBN than you (it basically looks good for dealing with stuff like tank busters, a7s lightning beams, and all sorts of other wacky single target stuff during progression), I do agree that Dark Mind is in a really weird place. I could see it being 30% without DA, and DA turning it into a group 10~15% or so. Cooldown is probably too short for that, though. Either that or give it some weird synergy effect with your team's spell casters (you gain MP when they cast? idk). Or they could have DADM max out the blood gauge when you take magic damage. Something like that.

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I hadn't considered situations like Sizzlebeam, to be honest. It looks fantastic for progression, at the very least. I'm just worried about situations in which it either turns into a spammable infuriate (which devalues the resource management aspect), or where it sees little to no use as OT because it's considered a dps loss. It's actually the coolest tank ability that I've seen this expansion, so I have high hopes for it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I hadn't considered situations like Sizzlebeam, to be honest. It looks fantastic for progression, at the very least. I'm just worried about situations in which it either turns into a spammable infuriate (which devalues the resource management aspect), or where it sees little to no use as OT because it's considered a dps loss. It's actually the coolest tank ability that I've seen this expansion, so I have high hopes for it.

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Something to consider is that I've heard (so this might be completely wrong) that the TBN shield has to actually be fully consumed in order to get the blood gauge, and it only lasts a few seconds. The job actions trailer seems to support this too. In HW at least there were a lot of situations where a MT might not take even 10% of a DRK's HP from just autos over 5 seconds, especially if things like Adlo get priority over it. So, it might not be viable to just spam it for blood. As someone who played a lot of paladin after progression (usually switched to DRK whenever we hit a progression roadblock) with a couple of reckless players, I got to use a lot of Clemency, so the "save someone's ass" aspect of TBN looks really cool.

I mostly see it being used for tank busters/mini busters, though. Same thing with Intervention. I don't expect MTs to be in tank stance any more than they were for 3.x, so every little bit of extra team mitigation can help against nasty stuff like Flarethrower, Double Rocket Punch, Divine Spear, etc.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

In HW at least there were a lot of situations where a MT might not take even 10% of a DRK's HP from just autos over 5 seconds, especially if things like Adlo get priority over it.

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But, this 20%HP shield can help survive a tankbuster without your tank stance.

Frankly, the more I think of it, the more I believe that SE realized that tanks do love to drop their stance (Enmity management for DPS, PLD being able to charge its oath gauge faster in SwO for more Sheltron, etc...)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, this 20%HP shield can help survive a tankbuster without your tank stance.

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But you might need to stay in tank stance a lot more come SB.

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Frankly, the more I think of it, the more I believe that SE realized that tanks do love to drop their stance (Enmity management for DPS, PLD being able to charge its oath gauge faster in SwO for more Sheltron, etc...)

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Most of the changes look to me seem to be trying to push tanks away from tanking in dps stance.Tanks are losing a lot of AP relative to dps. Enmity management for most healers/dps has not really changed while potencies have increased.

The faster charge in SwO is likely for the ability to throw out more Interventions when OTing. ShO might actually be faster charging when you are actually getting beaten on during a fight.