Suggestion: The Role Tri-Bind Plays in 4.0

With the loss of Blizzard II in the rotation of both SCH and SMN coupled with Shadow Flare being on a 60 second cooldown, many SMN and even more so SCH are left wondering what their role in AoE damage contribution with be with no filler. SCH in particular will be left to awkward spam Ruin/Broil on targets no matter the size of the pack after they apply their already weakened Bane. My suggested solution is to buff Tri-Bind to either 60 or 70 potency and make it ACN rather than SMN specific. This way both jobs will have an opportunity to maintain a filler skill during AoE rotations and give new life to a skill that strangely has been kept in for 4.0.

Although I would also like to see Tri-Bind promoted in some way to make it more useful, this seems unlikely. Especially seeing as all casters (inc healers) will get the Break role spell. Yes granted this only inflicts Heavy on the targets and not Bind, but considering enemies will move again after being inflicted with Bind, Heavy seems to be a better option. But who knows, perhaps Tri-Bind will get some proper attention in the future, fingers crossed.

At lv 12, Break is a spell with 50 potency that adds a 40% heavy for 20 seconds. Break has a normal cast time, but costs no MP, and the duration is pretty long. Recast time is about 2secs

Admittedly if Tri-Bind were adjusted to be a "Bliz 2" replacement... it would go a long way to aleviating the issue.

Potency would have to be adjusted. The loss of Miasma II combined with Bliz 2... is about 50 (Bliz 2) and 70 (Miasma II)... so...

If the potency on Tri Bind was adjusted to about 120... it would indeed make up for the DPS loss on both of those which were removed from the SMN.

And... you would have your filler spell... EDIT: and it would FINALLY get used... instead of just sitting there for no reason.





BUT... with these two combined that would aleviate a lot of the collateral damage caused by the BANE overnerf and the Bliz 2 removal at lower levels. Not sure how it would play out as it seems to me this one is a ground targeted spell too... but I haven't used it enough to even remember.

Personally I think Tether should be made into a caster action shared across Red Mage, Black Mage, and Summoner. Tether even has a very generic name that makes it sound like a role action for casters. The times when you need an AoE bind are more situational than half of the caster actions. From there, Tether, Freeze, and Tri-bind can be replaced with more useful functions.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Personally I think Tether should be made into a caster action shared across Red Mage, Black Mage, and Summoner. Tether even has a very generic name that makes it sound like a role action for casters. The times when you need an AoE bind are more situational than half of the caster actions. From there, Tether, Freeze, and Tri-bind can be replaced with more useful functions.

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Well yeah but that kinda misses the point.
He's more talking about the massive DPS loss we got hit with as an SMN... due to the loss of Miasma II, Blizzard II, and the BANE overnerf.

At lower levels the Bliz 2 spam was primarily for DPS when added to BANE'd DoTs... it had a secondary effect though, of holding all the mobs in place if you had a bad tank who had no agro control. Sure they'd break it 2 seconds later, but that wasn't the real benefit... the real benefit was giving a slow tank the time to control the mobs, while your DoTs were ticking away along with another 75 potency from the Bliz 2 every 3 seconds.

Once you reach level 60 it doesn't get used as a primary tool anymore... you tend to only use it to clean up the mobs after you've blown through all your other stuff. Or maybe you'll spam one or two between Painflare recast timers as filler, but its not really a primary tool by 60th its a secondary one...

Its primary use was Pre-60th, and/or when you got level synced.

It was a DPS addition to BANE'd DoTs, along with agro control assist when spammed.

So by simply increasing the Potency on Tri-Disaster to account for the loss of Bliz 2 and Miasma 2, it goes a long way to repairing the job which is likely now broken at lower levels.

Its not us who got nerfed but aoe in general-> we wont be aoe kings anymore but chaining ruin and all ruin procs + passiv selfbuffs might be a base for way stronger burst structure. Yoshi said big pull era is coming to an end so lets get over it and look for another role wie can fullfill in partyplay and raidconstalations. :)

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Originally Posted by Neela

...Yoshi said big pull era is coming to an end...

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As he buffs the holy hell out of his own classes AOE potential lol the fire2 nerf and flare/foul diminishing returns were just for show to cover up he wants blm to be AOE king :p (not to mention samurai having what looks like really good AOE, leaving everyone else in the dust)

I'd rather it tether sets of up to three targets together, giving them increased heavy and damage taken per second based on distance from either pair end. Let THEM face mechanics! Muahahaha.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Its not us who got nerfed but aoe in general-> we wont be aoe kings anymore but chaining ruin and all ruin procs + passiv selfbuffs might be a base for way stronger burst structure. Yoshi said big pull era is coming to an end so lets get over it and look for another role wie can fullfill in partyplay and raidconstalations. :)

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SMN did get hit more so than most jobs across a massive level range, however.

There are far simpler ways to tailor in AoE damage. One could even add depth to tanking and group positioning.
1. True AoEs will deal a total potency of (n+√n)/2. This would slightly increase current AoE damage after 6 targets (e.g. a whole 7% more dmg at 25 targets), but would provide a smooth, universal formula.
2. Linear and conal AoEs will deal damage to each sequential target equal to the initial damage remaining after mitigation from the prior target. In other words, those in the back of a series of shielding mitigators take less damage. Enemies now carry varying (m)defense values. Intercepting damage now becomes a vital part of group strategy.

Are raid constellations AST-based raid compositions? Typo or no, I'd really like to see what that looks like.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Its not us who got nerfed but aoe in general-> we wont be aoe kings anymore but chaining ruin and all ruin procs + passiv selfbuffs might be a base for way stronger burst structure. Yoshi said big pull era is coming to an end so lets get over it and look for another role wie can fullfill in partyplay and raidconstalations. :)

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The answer is... there ISN'T one...

At least not one that isn't done better by any other job or class combo.

So... it is this or we're stewed.

EDIT: Look there's no real way to go with this class. Arcanist is a hybrid with some support and some DPS. The job splits at 30th level for two different types of players who play it. Those who like the support class side go Scholar, those who like the DPS side go Summoner. So already you're at a point to where you CANT make TWO Support classes, its pointless. One is way better than the other at it and Bard outstrips everyone else in that catagory. On the DPS side... the BLM has all the Single Target DPS with huge mind blowing repeated high damage nukes... So barring giving the SMN huge single target nukes like the Enochian rotation (which only makes it a Black Mage clone)... there is only one direction to go with this.

But if you no longer want DoTs... and you want to nerf the AoEs... you may as well tear the thing up and get rid of the class entirely, because it no longer has either a point... or a place.

I have never needed blizz for speedruns. And still blms are consistently burning mobs slower than me. I'm baffled people cared that much about Blizz, a good smn will melt through mobs without it. I think I used blizz a total of 10 times in gubal because I was bored after running it for about 30 times. I'm willing to bet more than half, if not more of the people who are so caught up about the removal of blizz 2 never used it. I've ran into literally hundreds of summoners since 2014, never seen one using it. If the secondary dps is worth anything you should not have to blizz, sounds like slow runs to me. Unless it's a mnk, oh god every time I see the mnk icon when I enter a dungeon I just know i'll actually have to play instead of chilling and playing.

If anything, i'll miss having miasma 2 more as I just loved running through the mob and using it right before deathflare. It made me feel like a ninja mage, rip.

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Originally Posted by koroko220

As he buffs the holy hell out of his own classes AOE potential lol the fire2 nerf and flare/foul diminishing returns were just for show to cover up he wants blm to be AOE king :p (not to mention samurai having what looks like really good AOE, leaving everyone else in the dust)

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What's with all this talk about people being out to get SMN. SMN has the strongest damage over time aoe, so far one of the few if not the only aoe skill with no deminishing returns (deathflare) and akh morn which is usable atleast twice on a summon does more damage than both flare and foul. Sure flare doesn't depend on stacks, but you have to take balance into account. SMN has no cast times for their aoes they can literally reign down tons of damage all at once, nor do they use mana. By the time you're dotting and deathflaring BLM's will be lucky to even get 2 flares in just like it is now lol. This is not even taking into account enkindle chance to decrease it's cooldown. People are overreacting, but that's always the case.

Right on Val +1

Haven't used bliz2 for month cause no need for it. The whole problem why so many people cry now is they aren't used to move forward - if u dislike the way SE goes with Smns the answer is easy: switch cls. The ones who will remain are smns from heart watching in the future openminded. Those are the ones who will define the new role of this cls. Those are the ones who keep up theorycrafting and building guides.

I'm looking forward to all the changes and the opportunity to be part of those who try, fail, stand up and try again until the comm found a new place for us. Was smn in AAR, loved smn in HW and can't wait to see what's up for us in SB - we will find a place like always and that's what makes this cls so outstanding for me - a cls which is rebuild completely with every major update. One cls compared to others which will never get boring cause of so many ways you can play it.

Well I have just gotten done recording the damage on my various techniques... that according to the Tooltips we've recieved are going to be nerfed.

So I will know pretty much exactly how much we lost in terms of my real numbers. Including the average pet damage.
So we'll see how it shakes out. According to the information we have we got a 30% nerf to our DoTs, and 25% damage nerf to Ruin 3... and by extension probably a good 60% or more nerf on AoEs by losing Bliz 2, Miasma II, and the BANE overnerf.

Because obviously the minute the expansion hits I'm going to go out and test it on the same targets...

The only thing we didn't lose was the 200 potency Painflare and the 400 potency Deathflare. The wildcard is the Enkindle Potencies... as I haven't checked those, but because of the 3 minute recast timer on them they only play a minor role in the overall damage, which is about once every 3 encounters.

So we've lost an enormous chunk...

And I can guarantee you at this point... our Single Target damage won't even compare to a BLM.... not with Nerfed DoTs and a Nerfed Ruin 3.

And our AoEs are based on a 60 second Aetherflow recast timer... meaning he can do his Fire 2 + Flare rotation over and over again... once your Painflares are gone... and your Deathflare is gone... you're done because there won't be any DoTs ticking anymore. And there will be no Bliz 2 to save you if its not enough.

So unless these Tooltips are WAY wrong and Bane wasn't nerfed... (Which is what we're secretly hoping.... and that they increase the potency on Tri-Bind to make up for the Bliz 2 and Miasma 2 loss)....

then... I'm pretty sure at this point...... few will ever play a Summoner again. If they can even make it up the levels..... as the Nerfs hit ALL levels of the class from Arcanist all the way to Summoner (And even kick Scholar in the rear too).

It will make it completely pointless to play a SMN as it will be outclassed by every other job in the scope.

And again you are just comparing raw pots - we dont know yet how the MaM, egi buffs and procs turn out nor the temporary Ruin pot buff. There is an enkindle cd reduce proc + 2x adv. enkindle per trance they alone provide 1300 pot in a 20 sec flow-finisher. Also the shorter ogcd will increase overall pot. It's rumored that several tooltips have mistakes in translation als well. So please dont point your statement as fact - simply because u cant know the real output yet.

You cant guarante anything. Theorycrafting is more than just raw pot numbers.

edit:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

It will make it completely pointless to play a SMN as it will be outclassed by every other job in the scope.

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if u think so just stick to Blm - u would do me and others a favour. it doesnt matter if the smn clan will shrink again like in ARR when everybody laughed about smns until lots of the guys who made jokes about them followed us in HW like the classy WTJs in every mmo if something gets op - in this case aoe dmg. Just move on it's fine for me ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

And again you are just comparing raw pots - we dont know yet how the MaM, egi buffs and procs turn out nor the temporary Ruin pot buff. Also the shorter ogcd will increase overall pot. It's rumored that several tooltips have mistakes in translation als well. So please dont point your statement als fact - simply because u cant know the real output yet.

You cant guarante anything.

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Neela, a chance for -10 seconds on Enkindle is way low when we're talking a full 3 minute recast timer... Ruin 4 only has a 15% chance to proc... and then its still ONLY the level of the old Ruin 3..... So we're nerfed until we even get it and then we'll only be doing the old Ruin 3 damage only 15% of the time. Egi Buffs we can't judge yet, but some were buffs, some were nerfs, so its likely to be a push, and all that still would have to make up for lost 30-40 potency per tick in DoTs... and a lost 50 potency in Ruin 3 from current level comparisons... not likely going to happen.
But even after that leveling from an Arcanist through Summoner to level 70 will be greatly damaged... we already know it will be completely outclassed there.

That said... We do agree on one thing... There is a possibility the tooltips were wrong or mistranslated... so I will wait until I see it in game... and I am personally praying for it. But... if they are what they look like... then those nerfs hit from Arcanist all the way to Summoner... and we'll likely be completely outclassed by every other job at what they do best.

Both of us are praying the Tooltips are seriously in error... (and I personally am hoping Tri-Bind potency gets upgraded so this thing won't be hellish to play when level synced)

But I can't rationally justify playing this job to anyone if it actually plays the way it currently looks like it will from the tooltips we currently have.

Let's just wait and see - it wont be that bad. We will talk in August if things have been worked out, trust me you will be surprised. ^^

You know what makes me sad? Although we obviously cant stand each other that well, i thought you really try to become a good smn fighting with me and others day for day, getting knockbacks for every 2nd post u do regarding this cls and theorycrafting... you stand your ground. it doesnt matter if you lack in experience or thoughts but since the release of the skilltooltips all you said is "Bad here Bad there Bad everywhere" - if your passion to a cls is really that strong u seem to sell us you should focus on the opportunities to create/find something good out of it. Hard to say for me... but honest: you definitly arent a good HW smn in my eyes BUT you can become a good SB smn... if you wont be that negative about the upcoming changes.

Well I'm sitting on 360 Coms as a Summoner after only playing the game for 3 months... so I was obviously a very good HW Summoner...

As to sticking around for SB..... Not going to happen Neela...

I... like most other SMNs (If the other forums I am also reading are correct)... am only giving this until launch... to make sure it isn't what it appears to be on the surface... but the clock is ticking.

If it is... I can't justify anyone playing this job anymore...it will be outclassed by every job in every one of their specialties... and we will lose our previous specialty and nich on top of that....

And given the nerfs to the Arcanist side too and all the way up the chain... unlikely many will ever even play it up to those levels anymore either.

No one wants to play a broken class or job

Obviously a very good smn? whatever makes ya feel better...

While we're at it Neela... I find it questionable as to whether you even play SMN anymore... or even will once these changes take place....

Since release daily - like i said in the unfamous days of ARR (when we hadnt ANY burst or aoe except enkindle on a FIVE minute cd) throughout our golden hour with Heavensward until 2day and that wont change with SB - compared to you who joined 3 month ago (on smns peak) and will leave in 2 weeks like a rat on a sinking ship -> this is classy wtj at it's best... and because of this mentality you wont get deep enough into any cls to gather experience for valid discussions or theories which are worth to think about.

Well Neela... You know if the Devs would stop nerfing the crap out of everything every expansion... or keep trying to fix what isn't broken...

....perhaps... you'd probably have more people sticking around for the job they wanted to play in the first place... this half assed wrecking ball crap is just driving people away.

They finally fixed it after years of ARR neglect... finally in Heavensward... it was back on its feet.

And now its like they want to throw all that out the window again...

As long as it is the only effective class with a build in tank so that mobs aren't in your face and hitting your hp, I will continue to be a summoner.