People are saying RIP WHM right?
Well, what if, just what if, Square-Enix makes actually truly difficult content...
where....
You need a Paladin/Warrior, or even Paladin/Dark Knight composition Edit: **to clear within the first week or two**
and you need
a powerful White Mage healer!!! Edit: **to clear within the first week or two**
Just to even clear super savage?!
Like, story mode requires whatever composition cause of its freedom, and the meta for savage is the typical DRK/WAR-SCH/AST...
but...
Super Savage Composition is very strict, and to get world first, you need:
PLD/DRK - WHM/AST (for bole.) (passage of arms, massive heals/bole to actually live.)
Wouldn't that be a shocker?
RIP WHM? What... what if.... if..
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06-03-2017, 01:55 AMDaniolautRIP WHM? What... what if.... if..
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06-03-2017, 01:56 AMTaika
If nothing else, it would be very bad design.
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06-03-2017, 01:58 AMKaurie
What if...
1. AST heals more powerful heals than WHM?
2. All content is created to be viable with any combination of healers?
3. PLD/BRD/AST/SCH mitigation makes the heals WHM brings laughably unnecessary?
4. SCH's tether makes it a very strong MP free ST Heal?
5. AST has the strongest aoe heal?
That said, I can see a WHM/AST being meta, with WHM being the DPS off healer. -
06-03-2017, 02:00 AMDaniolautYou're saying it would be bad design, that each job is situational, at different tiers of content, at its release for the 2% of the playerbase,Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
but in time all jobs become viable for the rest of the 98%? -
06-03-2017, 02:07 AMAraminaFor a piece of content to be completely un-doable by a job? Yes, it is bad design. There is a difference between "not the meta" and "impossible".Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
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06-03-2017, 02:08 AMTaikaYes, it would be a bad design decision to require certain jobs to be able to beat content. It would also exclude more players from this content since static members would be expected to have certain (several!) jobs to change between fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
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06-03-2017, 02:09 AMDaniolautOk I should rephrase it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramina
For the meta to get their clears in the first week or so. Just like it has always been. They didnt take paladin, but paladin could in fact clear savage. Just not to that extreme. (in so much that it would take a group with paladin an additional month or more to get a clear. That is bad design yes. Hence why they fixed it.) -
06-03-2017, 02:11 AMAraminaSo... what's the question then? If it is already what has been done then what are we what-if'ing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
edit: Unless you are saying WHM should be happy because they could get their clear earlier? Still bad because no one wants to be the worst at all these things except this one little tiny niche (that the odds show is never going to be relevant to them anyway).
edit again: For the record, I am not saying they WOULD (because as pointed out, WHM no longer even has the best healer going for it), just in a hypothetical situation if they were would that be enough.. and clearly I say no :) -
06-03-2017, 02:12 AMExiled_Tonberry
You do know AST heals for more than WHM across their entire healing toolkit right?
And that WHMs healing is RNG now so it can't even be relied upon 100% of the time.
They also have nearly 0 mitigation and NO AOE mitigation.
On top of all of that, content REQUIRING a WHM would be unbalanced.
Btw, can we stop saying that? The whole "WHM level heals" thing. Because WHM isn't the strongest in even healing anymore they simply have MORE healing spells. Their potencies are actually weaker now. They don't even have the strongest AOE heal in the game anymore. -
06-03-2017, 02:14 AMDaniolautWhat if we are overlooking something because we don't have the changes to see how they work with the new content? I'm not saying its a solid thing, they should respond to our concerns about white mage, to inform us. But, there very well could (could means possibility) they know something we don't. Is that a fact? no, a possibility? yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramina
Oh, I was mistaken, I thought they said all content/numbers were subject to change. I wasnt aware its been finalized now. Ok then disregard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
RIP WHM. I will still play as you though. -
06-03-2017, 02:23 AMAraminaSure, and I would hope that no one is completely discounting the possibility, but it's a matter of "what are the odds of seeing something completely different than we have before?" I hope you are right and all this panic was nothing, but in the meantime allow people their worries :)Quote:
What if we are overlooking something because we don't have the changes to see how they work with the new content? I'm not saying its a solid thing, they should respond to our concerns about white mage, to inform us. But, there very well could (could means possibility) they know something we don't. Is that a fact? no, a possibility? yes.
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06-03-2017, 02:27 AMAlkimi
WHM is still absolutely fine as a straight healer. It's healing tools are definitely better than SCH. Against AST it's more fight dependant I guess (mostly "Will I need cure 3 a lot?").
The lillies and confessions mechanics will be largely ignored by good WHMs (at least for now) since they're unreliable and require casting often undesirable spells to activate. -
06-03-2017, 02:28 AMBourne_Endeavor
What if...
- Red Mage had an insta-cast Raise and Cure scaled through Int
- Dark Knight had a 10% shield that scales off its own max HP (20% on itself)
- Paladin had more mitigation tools, period
Two tanks and a DPS bring more mitigation and utility than White Mage does. That's the position we're in right now. -
06-03-2017, 02:29 AMHamadaThis, you shouldn't leave out other jobs. If WHM is needed and the only thing that can heal though damage, it leaves the other 2 healers out. If it is like now where all 3 healers keep up np, then WHM is dead with what we are shown, that simpleQuote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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06-03-2017, 02:36 AMAtlas-04
All healers should be able to clear the content. Requiring certain classes is just a bad idea.
What do white mages even bring to the table assuming every healer is capable of keeping the party alive? Defiantly not an aoe balance card. -
06-03-2017, 02:56 AMNicodemus_Mercy
People need to stop with the "we dont know what the new content is like".
We know that ALL healers must be able to perform their role (healing) in ALL content. That's all we need to know.
No one is saying WHM won't be able to perform its role (healing). Healing was never a problem for WHM. Its doing anything beyond that to support its groups that has been and still is the problem.
If ALL healers can perform their role in ALL content (and no we don't need to see Stormblood's content to know they can) then why take the one healer with you who can't do anything but heal and dps when you can take a healer that can heal, dps AND buff the dps of the entire group?
I said this in other places but:
SCH will improve their entire group's crit vs a boss by 20% periodically
AST will improve their entire group's damage by 20% periodically
WHM will... spam cure trying to stack Confession so its level 70 skill can actually heal something? Yea, you'd have to be blind to not see the disparity -
06-03-2017, 03:38 AMxbahax92
Ofcourse many players are already raiding the Omega content and know that WHM is utterly useless right now. Lets see if utility vs pure heal is important or not. Our Max HP will increase only by few thousands. The incoming damage might be higher, maybe not for dungeons, but for raids. You cant stop people playing WHM in dungeons nor 24man raid Return to Ivalice. All these crying people are actually such a few bunch, while the majority of casuals dont give a shit about if WHM is dead or not. All this whining, as if they cant patch a buff for our murdered WHM.
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06-03-2017, 03:45 AMNicodemus_MercyNo one is saying WHM is "utterly useless" they are saying that ALL healers are capable of healing ALL content (this is by design). No content can be so healing intensive that only WHM can handle it. That being the case, Why bring a WHM who can only heal and dps, when you can bring a SCH or AST who can heal, dps, and buff the dps of the whole group.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbahax92
Stop being obtuse. There will be no content so healing intensive that WHM's will be desirable above and beyond SCH/AST. There CAN'T be any such content because that would mean there's content only one healing job out of three can handle and SE does not design content in such a way. I think many expect a patch to buff WHM post release, much like AST got one soon after HW release. -
06-03-2017, 03:47 AMvelw
What if... if... "someone" silently deletes all the threads on the discussion board that say things SE don't want to hear about how they totally screwed over a big chunk of their paying customers... that'll make the problems go away, right?
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06-03-2017, 03:51 AMBourne_EndeavorNo one cares about dungeons or 24 man raids. White Mage mains are concerned they will be locked out of PF groups who will only list Scholar and Astro. This happened back when Heavensward first launched, gradually paving the way for the constant buffs that made Astro the powerhouse it is now. Considering the amount of people who at least attempted Creator were several times that of Gordias or Midas, you are severely underestimating how many people raid. Regardless, why should White Mage mains "settle" for being good dungeon killers? They deserve the same treatment Paladin and Monk got, i.e., buffed across the board. Even setting aside Savage. Every job received shiny new toys that seem to benefit the job overall. White Mages essentially got Spear as a mechanic and are better advised to ignore their Lilies entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbahax92
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06-03-2017, 03:54 AMDaikiKiyoshiActually at this point I think it would be a good thing for them to start deleting redundant threads. This has really gotten out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by velw
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06-03-2017, 03:55 AMExiled_TonberryWHM brings absolutely nothing to the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas-04
Everyone has better mitigation.
Everyone can successfully heal content.
Everyone has much better raid synergy and utility, which WHM has none of.
This is seriously the position we're in. Our heals aren't even stronger anymore lol. It's crazy -
06-03-2017, 03:58 AMvelwPerhaps it reflects how their paying customers feel about how they've been treated.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi
Threads can be locked. They can be moved. They can be consolidated.
You only delete them if you're terrified that you've screwed up horribly and that if word gets out people can still get a refund on the half-baked product you've decided to inflict on everyone, quite a few people just might do that. -
06-03-2017, 03:59 AMFelisThey got moved into the healer forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by velw
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06-03-2017, 04:02 AMKaurieWhy are they so defiant about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas-04
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06-03-2017, 04:06 AMMomomiMomiIt's not half-baked. Two-thirds got baked fine. The other one-third fell to the bottom of the oven and was burnt to a crisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by velw
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06-03-2017, 04:07 AMvelwThis one just got deleted from the healer forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
This petition, signed by over sixty users in under 24 hours, was just locked.
This 17-page thread discussing the Stormblood expansion changes says it's been moved, but the link on the index now jumps to a different thread, so it looks like it might have vanished as well. -
06-03-2017, 04:10 AMKhemorexi would lock and delete it to , its not really fun to talk with 5 year old raging kids XDQuote:
Originally Posted by velw
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06-03-2017, 04:22 AMvelwPerhaps this "community" is getting the expansion it deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khemorex
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06-03-2017, 04:31 AMBourne_EndeavorThe first thread was a waste. You didn't offer anything constructive, you simply whined and announced you're cancelling your pre-order. Why would any company keep that on their official forums?Quote:
Originally Posted by velw
The second could be argued as spam.
The third was merged with another thread because we have about a hundred threads discussing the same thing. -
06-03-2017, 04:37 AMvelw
If these are "official company forums" in the promotional sense you suggest, where are the official company representatives responding to their customers' concerns?
What I've posted has been my feedback about the game. Every thread I've started has prompted an on-topic discussion. That's exactly what these forums are for. And SE can speak for themselves, unless you speak for them in some official capacity... in which case perhaps you should state that openly, and start responding in that capacity to the feedback that has been shared on these boards. -
06-03-2017, 04:38 AMKaurieThis notion is ridiculous. When you unsubscribe, there is no survey to ask why you unsubscribed, and they specifically ask you to go to the official forums to tell them why you unsubbed. if they don't want it on their forum, they could not ask people to do that. Either way, they should actually take feedback, rather than just censoring it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
It could also be argued as showing the devs that this is a topic of concern among the playerbase.Quote:
The second could be argued as spam.
Yeah, there are way too many threads on it. I am not sure why everyone thinks their 1 thing to say about it is important enough to create a new topic. Having so many threads on the subject reduces the effectiveness of the feedback imo. Having 1 coherent thread that hits hundreds of pages would have a much bigger impact.Quote:
The third was merged with another thread because we have about a hundred threads discussing the same thing.
I think that it would have been a good idea for the community reps to pre-create topics for discussion. Make a new subforum: "Stormblood Discussion", then have a stickied thread for each job, "White Mage Stormblood Preview Discussion", and then forward everyone to provide feedback and discussions into those specific threads. -
06-03-2017, 04:43 AMYallaidXD i'm gonna go out on a limb and say its probably also not gonna really be fun to play WHM in Stormblood. because of the reasons everyone is saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khemorex
why are you trying to be dismissive about this again? -
06-03-2017, 04:50 AMBourne_EndeavorThey haven't censored anything. We have multiple threads of the same discussion point. Announcing to a company on their official forums you're quitting without any constructive criticism beyond "these changes suck!" is meaningless. The person in question made a thread that amount to little more than "I'm quitting!" So... quit. Don't announce it like we're supposed to care. Meanwhile, another person made a similar thread but explained her disappointment with White Mage and why the changes deflated her interest. That's a good talking point; something worth discussing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
Which, to be fair, is what they seem to be doing. Relevant threads discussing White Mage's core changes have been merged, not deleted. Signing your character name isn't a discussion point, hence why they locked it. I do agree though, they should have a separate section for Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
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06-03-2017, 05:05 AMKaurieThe act of deleting a thread is censorship, as it's that they are hiding that people are unsubbing, and not hiding that people have concerns over WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
As for telling a company that you quit while saying only "these changes suck"! is actually incredibly meaningful. It shows that at least some players are unsubscribing due to these changes. While it doesn't offer a solution, not everything needs to. Customer feedback that simply says, "I was unsatisfied with this product/change" is actually valuable as well.Quote:
Announcing to a company on their official forums you're quitting without any constructive criticism beyond "these changes suck!" is meaningless.
They are posting it on the forums for the community reps to pass onto the devs, because I assure you they care. A recent interview, Yoshi actually said to use the official forums to provide your feedback (https://www.jeuxvideo-live.com/news/...tasy-xiv-85195). Notably, Yoshi says...Quote:
The person in question made a thread that amount to little more than "I'm quitting!" So... quit. Don't announce it like we're supposed to care.
Quote:
We really wish players would share their feedback and ideas extensively on the forum. We have a significant social team around the world that analyze players situation so we would be grateful if could continue to use the forum to drop your feedback
Two things are able to be valuable, one being more valuable doesn't make the first worthless. Having the feedback that they've quit over something is useful information.Quote:
Meanwhile, another person made a similar thread but explained her disappointment with White Mage and why the changes deflated her interest. That's a good talking point; something worth discussing
I am talking about pro-active organization, rather than reactive. Interestingly, this is actually kind of on-topic of WHM, a healer which is much more reactive, vs the proactive SCH/AST. If they pro-actively made the subforums and threads in anticipation of the Live Letter, it would have helped focus discussion a lot better.Quote:
Which, to be fair, is what they seem to be doing. Relevant threads discussing White Mage's core changes have been merged, not deleted. Signing your character name isn't a discussion point, hence why they locked it. I do agree though, they should have a separate section for Stormblood.
Signing people's names provides information to the dev team. There isn't discussion, but there is feedback. -
06-03-2017, 05:20 AMXlantaa
If you need specific composition, is not well designed.
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06-03-2017, 06:27 AMBourne_EndeavorThey aren't hiding it, there is simply no purpose to a thread about your cancelled pre-order. You've decided to quit the game? Good for you. No one cares if the only motivation for the thread is to make a spectacle about you, individually, quitting. Yoshi asked for feedback. How can the devs know what to change if someone is just shouting? This is why threads like that are usually mocked by other posters: "Just quit if you don't like it." Which is exactly what happened in that thread. Censorship would be them locking down any criticism, which they have not done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
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06-03-2017, 06:34 AMKaurieI am not sure how many times I need to write the same sentence. The development team cares if you quit the game. "No one cares" is incorrect. Beyond that, they specifically ask for you to provide the feedback on the forum when you unsub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
The devs knowing that people don't like something is information in and of itself. Of course more information is better, but just the same, less information is worse.
It's clearly censorship, just because they don't censor everything doesn't mean this case isn't censorship. It's a precise example of the exact definition of the word. -
06-03-2017, 07:59 AMBourne_EndeavorEvidently not, lest it would not have been deleted. There is a difference between voicing displeasure over changes made which may have you quit the game and creating a separate thread announcing it. The former is constructive; the latter attention seeking. You are trying to ascribe value to something that had none. If someone has concerns over a product and when asked to elaborate they say "it sucks," your opinion is worthless. What can they do with that? How does it suck? What can be improved? Like I said, there is a reason threads like that typically receive "kbye!" "can I have your gil?" responses. People know it accomplishes nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
Not liking something and making a new thread just to announce you're quitting are not the same thing. Go post about why you dislike it and why you might stop playing.