We gave up:
>bane potency, which was excellent for dungeon runs and trash while raiding.
We acquired:
>more single target damage (excellent if you raid!)
>devotion: 5% increase in attack and healing potency for party members as well as a 5% decrease in damage received.
The way it looks like, SMN will be more seriously considered as an excellent choice for raiding.
Not very happy still about what happened to Bane but I am satisfied with the upcoming changes since I focus more on raiding.
:cool:
ps: reference. https://gamerescape.com/2017/05/30/f...lysis-casters/
ps2: we still will have to wait until the definite SB changes take effect. Until then, it's looking pretty good for SMN if you ask me, despite the announced nerfs.
The trade offs of the new SMN
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06-01-2017, 02:57 AMAristocraticCorgiThe trade offs of the new SMN
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06-01-2017, 03:25 AMLeigaon
Thank you for the reference, I've been out of the loop for a bit so coming back to see such new information is overwhelming.
So we loose Bio / Bio II as separate spells? They get increased in duration (24/25s?) and same with Miasma / Miasma II? I sort of don't mind that. I like how if our pet does something performs a skill we get a chance to get things upgraded to Ruin IV, and our Enkindle gets reduced. -
06-01-2017, 03:25 AMSilverquick
Actually no... its a serious problem for Raiding...
Because now all your damage will come from Bahamet and DWT + Ruin 3 + Deathflare... and when the Boss mob goes invulnerable or the heavy movement mechanics in the fight starts...
You lose ALL your damage as to where it was only a small portion that could be canceled or bursted early prior. -
06-01-2017, 03:51 AMDyvid
On a side note Bishop Turret received the same nerf. It's less about SMN and more about AoE.
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06-01-2017, 04:08 AMAristocraticCorgiForgot to mention that we also get a Ruin Proc now, which will be interesting down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
Overall the changes seem fair and in some ways we seem to be getting more than what we lost/originally had. -
06-01-2017, 04:09 AMZhaneX
Removal of Bio and Contagion, and the nerfing of Fester are all kinda worrying...
But dat Bahamut Summon, I'm just so in love.
The increased utility and availability of Enkindle are also nice. -
06-01-2017, 04:11 AMAristocraticCorgiI looked you up on fflogs and couldn't find you anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
I am referring specifically to savage raids/ex primals. The buffs and additions to SMN will be very welcome there. -
06-01-2017, 04:16 AMAristocraticCorgiThey got rid of Bio trying to simplify thing I assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhaneX
I don't remember the exact potency of the Bahamut summon, but I remembered it being quite strong in a way that was able to compensate for the loss of additional DoTs/other nerfs. -
06-01-2017, 04:19 AMSilverquickFunny my Achievements say otherwise...Quote:
Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi
That said its completely irrelevant... And if you learned anything from FFLOGs you know the real reason BLM isn't on top anymore... because all that movement hoses up their Enochian which is very delicate...
....as SMN we never had that kind of all or nothing power... until now... in fact we were mobile and never locked into something prior.
So why do you think its going to suddenly and mysteriously be different here? And we've got less damage mitigation for that than the BLMs do?
Do you seriously think you're going to be spamming Ruin 3 in Sophia Ex much while in DWT, or getting that Phase thing from Bahamet's extra attack?
You know as well as I do how much movement, boss mob invulnerability, and special mechanics are in those... you better hope you didn't pop your DWT right at that moment...
Because there went half your DPS. -
06-01-2017, 04:20 AMLambdafishWhile I'm unbiased towards the SMN mechanics (I'm in the wait and see camp), I'd rather this not turn into a FFLogs argument. People can have an opinion (and can raid) without FFLogs, don't invalidate someones opinion based on what you looked up on there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi
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06-01-2017, 04:26 AMSenlitenHonestly, the way you go on with the doom and gloom so instantly. I'd ask the people that carried you for a refund~ Given how sorry I feel for em XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Kinda wish T0rin was still around to bring some further insight onto what these changes might mean for end game.
Also Bahamut reads like a big AA flappy <_<, coulda just buffed garuda and be done with it, but nah, need to give people that want that 'summony feel' for a pet class, an aesthetic and nothing more. -
06-01-2017, 04:26 AMAristocraticCorgiI am not invalidating his opinion. You selectively chose to quote a part of my post. I just made it clear that the new aspects/changes to the job will be welcome in raiding environments, particularly savage/ex content. If he thinks those are detrimental to "raiding" (normal, etc), well that's up to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Have fun beating that straw man. -
06-01-2017, 04:27 AMAristocraticCorgiHe mentioned on the other SMN thread that he melded PIETY on his SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Senliten
You be the judge. -
06-01-2017, 04:36 AMHakane_MitsuI'm just gonna say I feel sorry for the people that carried you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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06-01-2017, 04:45 AMSilverquickYeah cool you're right I was totally carried from day one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakane_Mitsu
Now... back to reality.....
..... about movement mechanics and boss mob invulnerability in DWT... and all our other damage nerfed with the exception of that..... where all our damage was squeezed into the DWT set now...
Discuss that among you supposed "elites" that supposedly are the only ones who raid...
.....and then tell me what happens to your DWT, Ruin 3 spam, and Deathflare when they go invulnerable or the mechanics phase starts? -
06-01-2017, 04:47 AMIromi
As someone who was a SMN Main since 2.0, after seeing how much this job is changing...I am not quite sure if I will continue with it. It might end up being fun and stuff, but I dunno..AST, RDM and BRD look super fun ^^
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06-01-2017, 04:50 AMAristocraticCorgiYou do know that while raiding you have to manage/optimize cooldown utilization, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
That process entails learning the fight, including but not limited to the boss' skills/attacks, stages/phases in the fight, as well as being aware of how good or bad your dps output is so you can anticipate/prepare for particular phases/transitions.
The way you describe it you make it sound like raiding is hitting a Dummy that will always be there for you to hit it while dismissing transitions/phases and proper CD management --the very basics of raiding! -
06-01-2017, 04:51 AMHakane_Mitsuon paper I see no issue and regarding "invulnerable or the mechanics phase starts" Not every fight does that and if it does you work around that and optimize. so you can reach your peak at the same time as everyone else whilst not losing DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
In regards to that "Elites" remark, is it wrong of us to want to try and pump out as much DPS as possible so we can skip mechanics / kill faster to optimize farming? -
06-01-2017, 04:57 AMSenlitenCalled learning a 'scripted' fight. All the raids are simply scripted, thus if you actually learn your class, which by the way, saw the peity post, funny shit from someone claiming they can raid, yet point to a mere cheevo which anyone can get with gil, you'd know when those situations occur and switch your priority up. And this.... comes from a raider that barely waltzed into Alex savage, but has prior raiding knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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06-01-2017, 05:26 AMShaolinMike
People need to stop riding the roller coaster when it comes to nerfs and buffs. Keep in mind that the AoE damage falloff was applied to most AoEs across the board and is therefore not JUST a SMN nerf. The Bane damage nerf is also mitigated by the 15% chance to reset the DoT timers, so that should count for something. Basically, they couldn't give SMN everything not take something away in return.
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06-01-2017, 05:33 AMCecMiller
I'm looking forward to the SMN changes, but I do have to question some decision making. Making Fester 200 potency and painflare also 200 potency means there is no decision to be made. Painflare is objectively better as it has the advantage of hitting multiple targets whilst dealing the same potency and having no setup required to cast it. Fester requires dots to be on the target for it to even deal damage and it can deal less than 200 potency if you somehow only have 1 dot up (100 potency) or comically - none (RIP AA stacks). I'm certain that the team will look over the numbers for the potencys of the spells and fix any translation errors in the tooltips as I'm certain fester shouldn't be objectively worse than painflare but reducing the potency on ruin 3 by 25% and making ruin 4 a proc didn't make me very happy either. Bahamut is cool tho, lets not lie.
That said, I am looking forward to see how our single target damage shapes up. Bane was mostly used in dungeons for AOE for me and so the nerf hurts the dungeon clear times. For raids, I've used it on the second set off adds in A9S and spreading the dots from Faust onto refurbisher when his defence buff was up. In A11S it was possible to bane dots from cruise chaser onto 2 lapis and A12S I never even used it (with the 8 adds exploding within seconds). So all in all, its not a MASSIVE loss for the current raid tier. I think when they said they wanted to reduce the discrepancy between top dps players and the average player, they intended for an effect that these current summoner changes will have. I can't hide the fact that I'm disappointed in some of the changes however. For me, it feels like we will be seeing the same meta as we've had in 3.4 and not a single caster making the line up. Its worth keeping in mind that since we only need to keep up 2 dots, that frees up a GCD for a ruin/ruin2/ruin 3 which has a chance to turn into ruin 4. Personally, I don't get the potency nerfs for Ruin 3. I just don't see why it was needed as I believe summoners were in the middle of the pack single target damage wise (tho I don't have any proof of this). I will also miss contagion for longer dots D: But hey, at least we still have Tri-Bind!
As a side note: I propose we make a formal petition to SE to re-name Tri-Disaster to Bi-Disaster. In 5.0, given the current trend of reducing the number of dots, the spell should be aptly named Disaster. -
06-01-2017, 05:51 AMLambdafishIts not a straw man because I specifically didn't disagree with your opinion, nor did I invalidate it, I just don't like people pulling up FFLogs like it is some sort of test as to whether you know enough about a job to comment on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi
Oh and I didn't selectively quote you, your entire quote was:
In which you A) brought up FFLogs like it had any relevance to the discussion, then B) reiterated the content you were talking about, which Silverquick already clarified ("Actually no... its a serious problem for Raiding... ") in his post. I didn't pick and choose what to quote, and as I'll reiterate, either of you could be right, just don't throw FFLogs around like it has any sort of meaning in your argument.Quote:
I looked you up on fflogs and couldn't find you anywhere.
I am referring specifically to savage raids/ex primals. The buffs and additions to SMN will be very welcome there.
Anyway, I spent too long on this response, so I will sit back and return to watching the debate. -
06-01-2017, 10:16 AMMOtheNot a 80% damage reduction. Classes that are affected by falloff damage have a limit of 50% reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinMike
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06-01-2017, 10:33 AMNerisuPart of learning a fight is to know when to go into trance so you don't waste it when the boss becomes invulnerable. It will become easier to hold it off too with the removal of the Aethertrail Attunement buff timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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06-02-2017, 04:15 AMShaolinMikeIf there wasn't a significant falloff, everything would be dead by the time we got to our second Deathflare. Then who would Bahamut play with?Quote:
Originally Posted by MOthe
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06-02-2017, 04:24 AMVallhallixThis, I don't think any other class has an 80% damage falloff but SMN, not even BLMs new AoE. I mean what exactly was the point? it's damage over time, falloff damage for damage over time is just pointless, why even use bane now as opposed to your other AoE's. In the time it takes to bane most of the other classes with stronger AoE's would have reduced the targets to half health by then, best to just jump right into your heavy hitters. Rip bane.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOthe
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06-02-2017, 04:37 AMFernosaur
Could anyone tell me what the changes to Contagion are? I haven't found pet action tooltips anywhere D:
SCH does now too :'). It's also SCH's only AoE now, lmfao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallhallix
At least I think SMN's AoE won't be massively affected, since it is plausible to use three Painflares in one trash pull now to enter Dreadwyrm. Or PF > Bane > PF. The appearance of Bahamut every other trash pull is definitely gonna be a great boost too, plus using Devotion to help out other party members. -
06-02-2017, 05:45 AMSilverquickYes... basically what these changes mean...Quote:
Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi
Is that you will be doing crap damage... or nerfed damage while saving your DWT bonus damage for that single moment you CAN do it...
Rather than... how we do it now, from any time or any position, un-nerfed...
And.... it hasn't occurred to you your mean DPS will drop like a stone? -
06-02-2017, 07:06 AMShaolinMikeContagion is RIP. Pets now get Devotion: increases the potency of all attack and healing magic for all party members within a 30-yalm radius by 5%. It also reduces the damage taken by those affected by 5%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
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06-02-2017, 07:10 AMShaolinMikeThe only real difference is that we have one less DoT that will be ticking. Ruin potencies will be brought back up to par due to Ruination from Tri-Disaster. Also note that the time needed for us to do an entire rotation (casting initial DoTs > second Akh Morn) is going to be fairly short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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06-02-2017, 07:18 AMBlueyesI would like to see tooltip information as well, but from what I've heard, Garuda-egi now has the means to apply magic vulnerability to a single target. Supposedly 5%-10% vulnerability for 15 seconds with a 90 second recast. By contrast, Ifrit-egi will apply physical vulnerability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
Edit:
https://i.imgur.com/J6V4GT6.png -
06-02-2017, 07:21 AMShaolinMikehttps://gamerescape.com/2017/05/30/f...lysis-casters/Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
"Devotion, the pet ability, increases the potency of all attack and healing magic for all party members within a 30-yalm radius by 5%. It also reduces the damage taken by those affected by 5%. " -
06-02-2017, 07:44 AMBlueyesI believe that's a separate ability, executed by the egi through the use of Aetherpact. The paragraph that talks about Devotion also mentions, "the most impactful change for pets is the removal of Contagion. Garuda now has the ability, (Needs tooltip) which buffs the Summoner’s damage on the target by 5% for 15 seconds."Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinMike
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06-02-2017, 08:26 AMAristocraticCorgiOkay bro, whatever you say!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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06-02-2017, 08:28 AMAristocraticCorgiIt's kinda weird but as per the skill description of Aetherpact it seems that as soon as Aetherpact is executed the Egi will cast devotion on the party. 1 follows 2 instantly, as far as I can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
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06-07-2017, 08:53 AMNeelamay be right if said person would have had raid experience... and no i dont meant Ark Series ^^'Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
But someone who said that piety is raid meta (with carried clears) to have more mp for ruin 3 spam proofs lacks in those needed experience.
+1 very welcome <3Quote:
Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi
all the chaining and procs seem interessting for burst dmg - looking forward them pretty much :3
Honestly?... I just love u for this comment <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakane_Mitsu
Wanna talk bout reality? Here we go: im totally glad that people got that you are just a clueless wannabe smn without any idea what you are talking about: neither savage raids nor theorycrafting- real enough for u?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick