Hope raid loot rules are changed for 4.0

So I've not seen this one topic on this forum and its a fairly important change that needs to happen for raiding in NA and EU servers.

Raiding in this game relies way to heavily on statics due to how raid loot is given out and just the community itself. As of now when someone clears a raid floor for the week if they join another group and clear that entire group is given a penalty to how many chests drop. which means if you are part of a static you will only run with them at any given time and people that want to clear and need help will actively not seek your help because just because you cleared on Tuesday night an hour before they went in you just by being there hurt their character progression. Which in turn limits the amount of talent to the PUG scene which in turn directly effects clear rates it makes the hardest part of raiding having nothing to do with gameplay or mechanics and more about "can you find 7 other people playing the different roles needed who can meet up with you at the same time each week" which makes it harder for anyone trying to start raiding the first then we even say to those players is find a static which limits the people who are skilled enough to raid but have odd hours so they can't raid.

The fix for this is simple, simply do what they do for weekly 24man raids but with a twist. Make it so if you clear a floor the first time for the week you can't loot on any drops if you go in there a second or a third time but has no effect on the number of chest that drop. this change instantly allows for people with statics to raid at their leisure outside of their main group improving their knowledge of the fight making them better players but also gives life to the pug scene and allows anyone with skill to clear the floors on their own time.

I just hope SE have seen just how foolish their current system is.

I find this system also hurts subs. I've had it happen a lot where 1 person can't attend due to whatever reason. When getting a sub we've run into issues where 1. they've cleared, and we sacrifice a chest for it, or 2. they haven't cleared yet and refuse to come, so they don't handicap their group.

The cross server PF was put into place to help combat the exact situation you describe (among other benefits).
SE has to draw a hard line somewhere, otherwise we'd slowly be tiptoeing into the realm of 7 people selling carries to 1 person for 2 loots during lockout. Multiple times per week.
At least under the current system, 7 characters can only do that once. And they probably have to log into your account to do it too (technically not a carry but w/e).

Edit: Also, at least SE gave us the ability to help other groups after we cleared. Once upon a time that wasn't even a thing. And the sacrifice of 1 piece of loot for up to 4 people joining you with the encounter seems a fair trade off. The design drop rate was 2 pieces of loot for 8 people on a clear. If SE could give you 1.75 pieces of loot for bringing 1 ringer, I'm sure they would. (actually they can in the long run, but that would be giving the second coffer a 25% chance to just not spawn per cleared person)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The fix for this is simple, simply do what they do for weekly 24man raids but with a twist. Make it so if you clear a floor the first time for the week you can't loot on any drops if you go in there a second or a third time but has no effect on the number of chest that drop. this change instantly allows for people with statics to raid at their leisure outside of their main group improving their knowledge of the fight making them better players but also gives life to the pug scene and allows anyone with skill to clear the floors on their own time.

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Your 'fix' would pump WAY too much loot into the community. Raid sales would skyrocket, use of RMT would skyrocket, and any raid static that wanted to be competitive in progression would require you to have 7 alts, and run any given raid 57 times a week as the entire group goes 7 clears +1 new in order to get guaranteed 2 drops for every alt, from every turn, every week, so they could push that final encounter sooner than any other prog static.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

The cross server PF was put into place to help combat the exact situation you describe (among other benefits).
SE has to draw a hard line somewhere, otherwise we'd slowly be tiptoeing into the realm of 7 people selling carries to 1 person for 2 loots during lockout. Multiple times per week.

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What is wrong with this? I've seen similar things in other games (i.e. selling Mythic+ carries in WoW, or selling runs in GW1), and it's always been great for the game, both economically and socially. It's a great way for people who don't craft to obtain gil, while also providing community interaction.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

The cross server PF was put into place to help combat the exact situation you describe (among other benefits).
SE has to draw a hard line somewhere, otherwise we'd slowly be tiptoeing into the realm of 7 people selling carries to 1 person for 2 loots during lockout. Multiple times per week.

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It really did not at all cross PF did is increase the number of already small raiders people still had trouble find subs because again the hardest thing about raiding is NA and EU is not playing the game its hoping your schedules match up. They could do what i just suggested and everyone wins the gear lockout is still in effect so statics can't grind a floor until everyone has Bis from that floor and never touches it again and this allows anyone that wants to raid to raid which will increase the amount of raiders and clear rates.

and as far as boss design is in this game its very anti seller because you can only realistically carry a dps class as the other two are vital to many mechanics and require you to be present playing i.e you can't solo heal/solo tank any of the alex floors while they were current and even carrying a dead dps is a stretch for most groups.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

and as far as boss design is in this game its very anti seller because you can only realistically carry a dps class as the other two are vital to many mechanics and require you to be present playing i.e you can't solo heal/solo tank any of the alex floors while they were current and even carrying a dead dps is a stretch for most groups.

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If only you had quoted me 1 more line

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

The cross server PF was put into place to help combat the exact situation you describe (among other benefits).
SE has to draw a hard line somewhere, otherwise we'd slowly be tiptoeing into the realm of 7 people selling carries to 1 person for 2 loots during lockout. Multiple times per week.
At least under the current system, 7 characters can only do that once. And they probably have to log into your account to do it too (technically not a carry but w/e).

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You can sell a run of any content, to any job. Where there's a gil, there's a way

On Chaos, there are "2 chests" party finders up all the time and that's how I've sometimes gotten my weekly clears when I haven't been able to attend our static's events. From my experience the current system works really well, and your suggestion might lead to more content sales, which wouldn't improve the raiding community in any way.

Edit: And don't forget tokens. Even if you would run 0 chests every week, you'd still be able to get loot. :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Edit: And don't forget tokens. Even if you would run 0 chests every week, you'd still be able to get loot. :)

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Amen to that. You'd get 5 pieces of loot every 8 weeks running purely zero chests. Pretty darn generous of SE to do that.
I'm not saying the current system can't be improved upon, but I don't think the suggestions in this thread would be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

If only you had quoted me 1 more line


You can sell a run of any content, to any job. Where there's a gil, there's a way

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that's irrelevant and very few people do that regardless again only top tiers groups are capable of it given how the fights are designed.

@Taika yea two chest groups are up on Tuesday/Wednesday and the number just gets smaller as the days go on

I've responded to a similar topic before, but basically that rule is there to prevent people from gearing alt chars faster than normal. For example if I have a static of 8 people, then we clear 4 floors of the raid on a day, and the next day I bring my alt with my 7 static members and clear the same 4 floors again. If there's no penalty, then I can loot up to 8 gears, 3 upgrade items and one weapon token. Repeat for my 7 static mates' alts (clearing once for each), by the next week our alt group is 8 times as geared as our main group. This would have a very big impact on the early clear race (world first and server first).

Personally I'm not a fan of the loot rules either, but there is a good reason why they're there.

It's a horribly designed system, but it won't change as that would reduce the number of maintained subs. Money comes first, Squeenix is a business after all.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I've responded to a similar topic before, but basically that rule is there to prevent people from gearing alt chars faster than normal. For example if I have a static of 8 people, then we clear 4 floors of the raid on a day, and the next day I bring my alt with my 7 static members and clear the same 4 floors again. If there's no penalty, then I can loot up to 8 gears, 3 upgrade items and one weapon token. Repeat for my 7 static mates' alts (clearing once for each), by the next week our alt

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From a design standpoint no one cares about world and server first its a moot point. the loot system is in place not to prevent gearing your main class quickly which I've already suggested the solution to that problem. no one needs to worry about the very very very small amount of people who will level alts to get more raid loot that won't help with world first progression anyway as they are alts so its not like you can share the gear across the account

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

From a design standpoint no one cares about world and server first its a moot point. the loot system is in place not to prevent gearing your main class quickly which I've already suggested the solution to that problem. no one needs to worry about the very very very small amount of people who will level alts to get more raid loot that won't help with world first progression anyway as they are alts so its not like you can share the gear across the account

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Well I'm not the dev so I won't say I know how much they care about it. It does help in the progression race since usually you race under the name of a static/fc, so your alts would count. Tbh it's a moot point if the raid difficulty is as low as creator savage though, but if the race lasts for 3 weeks of longer it'll be a decent amount of advantage (3 people with upgraded tomestone weapons vs 8 people if they abuse the system like I explained).

then you dont understand the system i suggested. if you clear it once weather you loot or not you are locked from getting anything for the week but the page

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

then you dont understand the system i suggested. if you clear it once weather you loot or not you are locked from getting anything for the week but the page

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Unless you make the loot restriction account wide you can still abuse it for gearing an alt group.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Snip......and as far as boss design is in this game its very anti seller because you can only realistically carry a dps class as the other two are vital to many mechanics and require you to be present playing i.e you can't solo heal/solo tank any of the alex floors while they were current and even carrying a dead dps is a stretch for most groups.

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Not tying to dig on you, but just because you can't carry when relevant doesn't mean others can't, 9 & 10S were both cleared by full tank parties and no tank parties when relevant and 3 or 4 weeks into the patch 12S was solo healed by an ast, the video was on the forums.

Ik the people that do it are on a different level from most but claiming it wouldn't be an issue and blanketing the community couldn't do the carries is just factually incorrect.

Lockout reduces burn out and rmt bought runs that's why it won't be going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Unless you make the loot restriction account wide you can still abuse it for gearing an alt group.

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Which no one cares about you still have to make the massive time investment of having a geared alt to do the content in the first place and all you end up with is an alt that has maybe 1 piece of gear rng dependent so outside of doing the fight more you gain nothing progression wise.

@hiro I'm aware people can do never said it wasn't possible is it common no, and not everyone can do it very few people do those kinds of thing again not in great enough numbers to make run sales skyrocket and besides no one will be doing that for 4.0 for a while we all have to relearn our classes.

Well I'm quite sure the people involved in those server/world first races care. The upgrade items aren't rng, as I've said if the race lasts 3 weeks or longer that means you could have guaranteed 8 upgraded tomestone weapons, compared to 3 at most if you're only gearing one group. It'll make it compulsory for people to have alt groups in order to be competitive for the race.

Again, I'm not assuming I know what the devs think about this, I'm just saying that there's a way to exploit the loot system if those rules aren't there. I don't even know if the case I described was considered by the devs at all.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Your 'fix' would pump WAY too much loot into the community. Raid sales would skyrocket, use of RMT would skyrocket, and any raid static that wanted to be competitive in progression would require you to have 7 alts, and run any given raid 57 times a week as the entire group goes 7 clears +1 new in order to get guaranteed 2 drops for every alt, from every turn, every week, so they could push that final encounter sooner than any other prog static.

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EDIT: Nope, Haelse's right. This could indeed be abused by use of alts.
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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Unless you make the loot restriction account wide you can still abuse it for gearing an alt group.

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I would personally rather see this approach the opposite extreme. As long as weekly loot is capped per character, the "all in one" aspect of FFXIV actually hurts itself. Any raider would be better off using a separate alt, allowing themselves more weekly loot and currency. I'd rather FFXIV actually made a system that works with their advertised unique "all in one" idea.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

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I get your point but if it's anywhere near creator level difficulty we will be seeing carries within a few weeks, especially if there wasn't a loot restriction. I don't do sells but we've carried plenty of friends through just the trade off for them is no loot and only a manifesto.

If you want consistent weekly clears/loot then you have to static regardless of loot restrictions, otherwise run sells will be more prevalent and I don't doubt that pug players will complain the only way they can get thier weekly is by paying.

Like who in thier right mind would pay for a run that's only a manifesto? And what static would willingly give up thier loot during relevant prog time?

Consistent clears do not require a static for any content in the game look at any extreme primal all it requires is finding the right party which takes some trial and error all this change does is frees up the talent pool so to speak. Right now they require a static for the sole purpose of ensuring loots drops. If this change comes raiding will be for everyone who wants to try it or if they are already raid capable but can't due to time issues those fall away as well and they can do them at their own pace. As for people buying runs they already do that anyway numbers will stay the same selling runs is task done by statics already I doubt we will get pug sells.

Personally I'd rather have the current loot rule system when the new raid is released, and have them remove the loot restriction completely during the odd patches, i.e. when the 24 man raids are released, since the relevant races are obviously done by then. This way, people can gear up alt jobs easily to experiment with different compositions for challenge/speed kills, and help other players. I think the current loot restriction lasts way too long.

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

Like who in thier right mind would pay for a run that's only a manifesto?

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You'd be surprised lol. Page runs are quite popular, since they're quite a lot cheaper than full loot runs, and supply is effectively infinite so the prices aren't as bloated as loot runs. At least in my server people were buying page runs until a few weeks before creator savage loot restriction was removed.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Read the suggested 'fix' again.

You only have the chance to receive loot ONCE, same as now. You cannot obtain any loot within the week after the first clear. You're still just as RNG-dependent as before.

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I read the fix just fine. It seems that you missed the part where I said "alts" (you even underlined it). As in 7 people in a static bring a character that already cleared, and the 8th person brings an alt, who would be guaranteed all the loot from the encounter, because that is what the suggested fix allows. The 'fix' just turned the loot system from 2 equips per 8 people cleared into 4 equips per 9 people cleared.Now repeat this once more for every alt in your static. For the most extreme situation of an 8 man static with 8 characters on the server (possibly more on other servers within the same data center)(assuming only 1 account per person) you could be looking at 114 equips dropped for a 64 character raid team. PER TURN. Obviously the number of groups that would go through this much effort is abysmally small, but if it's allowed , it will be done in some degree. People will gear faster, get burnt out faster, unsub faster. All for the sake of what? "It's too hard to maintain/find a static". Normal mode raiding says 'hello' to those people.

Edit: If I see some good recommendations for a new loot system, I'll jump on board. When I see suggestions like OPs which could take the current loot rate of 16 equips per 64 characters cleared and turn it into anywhere up to 114 equips, I'll crap on it because it's broken.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying we will get pug sells. It won't free anyone up, if loot is completely unrestricted like with primal Exs people will just farm week 1 and be done, devs obviously don't want that.

If you lock it to once a week but not affecting drops for people who haven't cleared that week, unless you personally have friends who are clearing why would people help you get your weekly loot who don't know you when there's nothing in it for them? They wouldn't they would want paying or find someone who will.

Complete unlock will be farm and then stop doing the content. Personal loot lock but not group will not increase the talent pool as those clearing for thier once a week have no reason to run it again.

Edit: I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, and I don't think the current loot system is ideal but I haven't seen a suitable suggestion how to change it. Realistically how many people do you think would join the pug pool if there wasn't any loot for them because they already have thier weekly? And we all know that complete lift on lockout would not be the answer either.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

I read the fix just fine.

Edit: If I see some good recommendations for a new loot system, I'll jump on board. When I see suggestions like OPs which could take the current loot rate of 16 equips per 64 characters cleared and turn it into anywhere up to 114 equips, I'll crap on it because it's broken.

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My mistake. I was assuming it would be come alongside some change to remove the advantage to alt usage, either by making weekly raids account-based (crippling alts; not my preference) or job/role based (such that there's no longer a need for alts). Without such a change, you could indeed end up even with another MMO's nefarious period of lower-ranked guild members having to run the core group through content to give them all their loot before the core group meets up, all their gear in place, for the real run...

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

You misunderstand, I'm not saying we will get pug sells. It won't free anyone up, if loot is completely unrestricted like with primal Exs people will just farm week 1 and be done, devs obviously don't want that.


Complete unlock will be farm and then stop doing the content. Personal loot lock but not group will not increase the talent pool as those clearing for thier once a week have no reason to run it again.

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to help other people to get practice to optimize to practice speed running just cuz your bored lots of reasons

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

to help other people to get practice to optimize to practice speed running just cuz your bored lots of reasons

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Optimising is imo something you'd do in your static and imo speed runs is quite niche and something only the top server statics compete for. Running with randoms wouldn't help them significantly if at all.

The loot system is not perfect as I said in my edit, but to me it seems like you're blaming your lack of people to run with and talent availability due to schedules etc on the loot system.

This isn't the case and the people who aren't available for pug groups now still won't be available if you changed the loot system to benefit those without thier weekly clear.

As for previously mentioned primal Exs, people do pug slightly more but they are easier and more accessible. Personally I cleared with my static day 1 of zurv, farmed for 3 days then didn't touch it unless a friend needed it, we were never part of the pug talent pool.

Exs are clearable in the allotted time frame. Statics exist for savage because for most of the player base, approaching the fight from new, even with trial and error are not clearable in a single session, those that do are lucky in terms of group competency and also do so when In depth guides and strategies have become widespread which were all developed by people running in statics.

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

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Getting into a circle jerk here you say your group aren't part of the poll and i can point to you 30 something people who are some have statics some don't. This changes improves the pool you can optimize a fight in a pug as far as getting in the gcd you need.
your right about clear times statics don't clear in a single lockout either you keep doing it again and again same thing with pugs with a bit more variance. People who aren't in statics that want to raid simply can't find time to get 7 other people to match their time frames that is the only reason this changes means just like you can go do zruvan anytime you want basically i can go do a10s while its current. Is it as effective as a static, no of course not but its better than nothing

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

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Ik my group aren't the be all and end all but we also aren't alone, most people don't have the time or energy to run extra runs for people they don't know.

You've done the content, you know what it's like, all I can assume is somethings changed and it means you can't commit to a solid group for SB and that's why you're seeking change. I can appreciate that and understand people want to do the content but it doesn't line up for what ever reason even though they are more than capable as an individual and that's frustrating.

Just personally I don't think loot is the issue or that it would solve the whole talent pool issue, but that's just my opinion ^^

Wait, what's wrong with selling clears? That's a common and pretty successful thing in other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Wait, what's wrong with selling clears? That's a common and pretty successful thing in other MMO's.

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Nothing really, the issue lies more in where the gil comes from, can't blame the run sellers if someone buys runs using rmt bought gil but if buying runs is the way to guarentee your weekly clear then we would probably see more people doing it.

I was just saying that lifting or changing loot rules would mean selling runs is more accessible and viable for statics (didn't say it was wrong) just that it's not going to fix the pool of players issue op mentioned, pug players wouldn't get access to a a larger pool of consistent players, because why run with randoms when you have your static or someone's willing to pay you for the run?