Mandatory Combos

Why are we even allowed to execute some abilities outside of a combo? There is no benefit of using Main or Storm Eye if they are not ready. Their out of combo raw potency, potency per second and potency per TP are a disaster. The only reason to even allow me to use combo actions outside a combo seems to be a developer cosmic joke on uninformed players.

Can we just make these mandatory? For example, can we make the use of Maim require Heavy Swing had been used before?

If one of the goals in Stormblood is to narrow the gap between skilled and unskilled players, I think a good first start would be to limit how players can cripple their rotations. They still will need to know not to throw something like a Fracture mid combo, but at least that is something that may be considered a solid reason to break a combo.

Or maybe someone can illuminate me of any situation where I would want to use a combo action outside a combo?

I am sorry if this looks like a thread redirect or hijacking, but this questions is being discussed here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-see-it-in-PVE

The concept of consolidating the combos is the same thing as locking out abilities like you discussed, but with 1 added thing and that is to have 1 button to press instead of multiple.

Simplified systems lead to automation, aside from that taking away the 'choice' to mess up and still do some amount of damage or mess up and freak out that you stopped doing damage...or realize it after the wipe because you are a 1h playing fool!

But hey they could implement a 'shame bunny' variant for all jobs!

Part of the reason I love XIV is that what I press matters and sets me apart from another job w/ the same gear! Its not just a mindless zergfest! You actually have to think about where and when to use your actions. A good many of the people who mess up or dont perform combos correctly do so because they dont READ their tooltips and set up their bar accordingly or they just dont pay attention and mash buttons..

And while we're on a similar subject, if we make it so that actions execute in succession just by mashing the same button over and over again (like they intend to do with PvP), I feel like the 'fun' would get sucked out of it.

If they took away the ability to correctly or incorrectly perform combos, I would lose interest. Their wouldnt be any challenge in it. "Just mash a button whenever you want! it wont matter!"
NO! I want the CHOICE of how I play and I try to play well because I don't want to be a run of the mill player.
Shorten the core vs casual playing field if they must, but don't make us cookie cutters of everyone else!

How do you go about defining which combos are mandatory? While you mention some actions that you don't think have a use outside of combo, there are others that do have selective use (but which should not be repeated endlessly.)

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Part of the reason I love XIV is that what I press matters and sets me apart from another job w/ the same gear! Its not just a mindless zergfest! You actually have to think about where and when to use your actions. A good many of the people who mess up or dont perform combos correctly do so because they dont READ their tooltips and set up their bar accordingly or they just dont pay attention and mash buttons..

If they took away the ability to correctly or incorrectly perform combos, I would lose interest. Their wouldnt be any challenge in it. "Just mash a button whenever you want! it wont matter!"
NO! I want the CHOICE of how I play and I try to play well because I don't want to be a run of the mill player.
Shorten the core vs casual playing field if they must, but don't make us cookie cutters of everyone else!

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Being able to follow a glowie ant trail on your icons don't really make you that great at deciding what you are doing either, so don't try patting yourself that well on the back for that.

Having actions require combo status to even activate still does not mean you don't get to chose what else you do next, especially if combo system was expanded with it. Multiple combos with multiple situational usage would make combo chain selection an actual choice. Allowing players to use the third step of a combo for just 100 potency with no benefit is just terrible game design.

Either it should be mandatory, or there should be some benefit from doing so (fewer aspects of the action tied to combo action requirements.)

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Originally Posted by aesteval

How do you go about defining which combos are mandatory? While you mention some actions that you don't think have a use outside of combo, there are others that do have selective use (but which should not be repeated endlessly.)

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Repeating a combo over and over is another story. I used war as example, and it's a good one for your request too, because you should not be doing that combo over and over, only every time the self +dmg and -res expire (or are close enough to expire.)

I main DRG and War, both need to use at least two different combos to be effective, with various non-combo actions also mixed in.

My main issue is with using those abilities outside of combo action. Either they should not be usable, or there should be a point for them to be used. Maim could always land its damage buff (think that's changing to the -res in Stormblood) with the only combo action benefit being the added potency. At least then it would make sense to activate the thing outside a combo.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Having actions require combo status to even activate still does not mean you don't get to chose what else you do next, especially if combo system was expanded with it. Multiple combos with multiple situational usage would make combo chain selection an actual choice. Allowing players to use the third step of a combo for just 100 potency with no benefit is just terrible game design.

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Combo actions that enable based off various conditions are there for a reason. Its part of the way that most jobs function. And yes, they do require some THOUGHT on the part of the user, and they can be what makes one player differ from another. Not just in terms of dmg, but also in play styles.

As Bard, I could apply Straight shot which lasts for 20 secs. If it procs right away and Straighter Shot becomes available, I could choose to toss it out right away to do the extra dmg or I could choose to wait until my buff is close to going down to refresh it when I need to rather than having to recast straight shot which takes more time. That's up to me to decide.

Or take BLM... Firestarter is a huge deal for BLM and its a fundamental part of how BLM is meant to be played. In the later levels, casting Fire can cause 'firestarter' to proc which allows an instant casted Fire3 and equates to more dmg. If we were to just remove firestarter altogether BLM's would be forced to just spam cast Fire 3 over and over without the benefit of an instant ability that they could use for more dmg, or hold onto for a second and use in case they know they are going to have to move, etc...

My point is those combo-enabled actions & abilities exist for a purpose already. They have added benefits, you just have to think about what they are. If you cant figure out the right way to use them, then thats on you!

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Combo actions that enable based off various conditions are there for a reason. Its part of the way that most jobs function. And yes, they do require some THOUGHT on the part of the user, and they can be what makes one player differ from another. Not just in terms of dmg, but also in play styles.

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You and I define thought very differently. 1-2-3 is not exactly thinking. The main reason they are still there is the game never got rid of them after actual-thought-requirement was introduced.

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As Bard, I could apply Straight shot which lasts for 20 secs. If it procs right away and Straighter Shot becomes available, I could choose to toss it out right away to do the extra dmg or I could choose to wait until my buff is close to going down to refresh it when I need to rather than having to recast straight shot which takes more time. That's up to me to decide.

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.... yes... that is for you to decide, but that is not a Combo Action.

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My point is those combo-enabled actions & abilities exist for a purpose already. They have added benefits, you just have to think about what they are. If you cant figure out the right way to use them, then thats on you!

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You are missing the point: those are not combo actions you seem to describe. Warriors, Dragoons, Paladins, those are combo actions, and they are not "added benefits". Using those actions without the combo is always a self-dps nerf. Repeating Heavy Swing over and over non stop will always be superior to ever using one of the Warrior combo "boosted" actions out of combo.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

You are missing the point: those are not combo actions you seem to describe. Warriors, Dragoons, Paladins, those are combo actions, and they are not "added benefits". Using those actions without the combo is always a self-dps nerf. Repeating Heavy Swing over and over non stop will always be superior to ever using one of the Warrior combo "boosted" actions out of combo.

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So wait. you want for example WAR's 1-2-3 actions to be removed in favor of just mashing 1 button for Heavy Swing, etc? So... like what they are going to do with PvP in 4.0?

So you want the game to become a mindless button masher? I hope you have a mechanical keyboard because that poor '1' key is gonna need replacing alot.

And the combo actions weren't meant to be used solo. Thats how XIV has been since release. Why are we griping about that now? That being said, I dont think it needs to become mash 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 repeatedly until our eyes bleed from it. I like how the combos work. I already have seen plenty of people who dont read their tooltips or set up their bars properly, spamming actions out of order. Mashing 1 over and over may make it easier for some of them sure, but its still not going to make them a good player. All it will do is make the rest of us bored as all hell.

It sounds like to me the real issue here is players not READING and organizing their bars in a way that favors using their "combo".

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Originally Posted by Vespar

So wait. you want for example WAR's 1-2-3 actions to be removed in favor of just mashing 1 button for Heavy Swing, etc? So... like what they are going to do with PvP in 4.0?

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No. I said it in my OP, and added another possible approach in replies to you:

Either
A) make it so that the activation of a combo action step requires the combo action to validate (2 wont even be clickable if 1 wasn't the previous action)
B) Make it so that there is a reason for using 2 outside a combo (additional effects should not require combo action, only the damage increase should.)

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So you want the game to become a mindless button masher?

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The more I read this, the more I think it may as well, if replies are going to mindlessly reply to posts...

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Also, I was unaware that just using Heavy Swing over and over on WAR was superior. I dont play WAR but that seems pretty boring as hell if you ask me... How's that work out for you holding hate over AOE classes like SMN?

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You need to work on your reading abilities, or maybe my English just sucks and I cant communicate this properly. A perfectly valid possibility, the later.

Heavy Swing > Heavy Swing > Heavy Swing
Will ALWAYS be better than:
Storm Path > Heavy Swing > Heavy Swing

Because Storm path out of combo potency is only 100, while Heavy Swing potency is always 150.

At no point will using Storm Path outside of a combo be a thought. It's not a choice. You either use it in combo, or never use it because it's useless otherwise. It's not the same as deciding to time Straight shot.

ehh. i'm not 2 years old. the combos light up if im not mistaken. That's a suggestion enough that i should use that move next.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Either
A) make it so that the activation of a combo action step requires the combo action to validate (2 wont even be clickable if 1 wasn't the previous action)
B) Make it so that there is a reason for using 2 outside a combo (additional effects should not require combo action, only the damage increase should.)

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My apologies for misunderstanding you and I updated my previous post accordingly. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough before you responded to it.

I atleast get this much. Mayhaps you should try out MNK as it does kind of force you to use a combo in the way you describe (or atleast to some degree). But that being said, I dont feel like every job that uses a 1-2-3 combo-style needs to have this method of execution. The combo actions already light up in "glowing ant trail" you described. So, it should be somewhat visually obvious what to do next.
Really, it mostly sounds like you want people to learn to read their tooltips and perform their combos like they should. I firmly believe this should be up the player to know what their actions do and adjust accordingly. XIV does not need to be a mindless button masher just to cater to the folks who already dont care enough to read.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

A) make it so that the activation of a combo action step requires the combo action to validate (2 wont even be clickable if 1 wasn't the previous action)

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The reason for that is the entire reason video games rely on failstates to BE a video game. If someone literally can not make a mistake, then the game is boring. It's like saying a shooter shouldn't let you fire unless your crosshairs are over the enemy and the shot will hit.

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B) Make it so that there is a reason for using 2 outside a combo (additional effects should not require combo action, only the damage increase should.)

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This would require an insane amount of rebalancing of abilities and jobs in general. The idea that, yeah, you CAN'T just throw up Storm's Path whenever you feel like it on your first hit makes it more important that you keep it up by doing the entire combo. It's a much greater investment of time to actually land Storm's Path if it's at the end of a 3-chain combo. In the case of warriors specifically, it's impossible to keep up the slashing debuff, storm's path, AND do your highest damage/threat combo regularly.

I dont think he is advocating for making all jobs a 1 button wonder. Dragoons have a couple "combos" that can get hectic when trying to keep buffs and debuffs up as well as making sure you are following mechanics of the fight. I know my fingers sometimes jump the gun and will hit the 2nd part of a combo, rendering far less damage and having the whole rotation get fubared. Its more about making those parts of a rotation easier to do. I main a bard so this is not an issue, but when I play my dragoon I struggle with this.

OP has it mostly right. Though what really needs addressing is the fundamental fact that the combo system really adds nothing t game play as it stands. Outside combo, abilities are worthless (and no, super highly niche situations don't count), and even some weapon skills only exist as part of the combos. For example on WAR, heavy swing exists purely to lead into the other 2 combo chains, and skull sunder only exists as a mid combo before butcher's block. There's no reason for this. It also puts lots of emphasis on needing to get that final combo in as it's the one that matters; which is beyond annoying when the boss jumps/goes invincible just long enough for you to lose combo, let alone when other abilities take away your combo status (looking at you PLD casting clemency). By comparison when I used to raid in SWTOR on my Juggernaut, I could have moments where I am not on the boss, then get right back in and pick up my rotation where I left off. In XIV you usually have to just restart completely from the beginning which is just annoying.

Outside MNK who is a bit of a unique case with combos, they could be deleted and reworked and the game wouldn't suffer. I'd argue it'd be better for it. I'd rather have 6 weapon skills in my rotation to use that each had some role by themselves, outside having 6 where 2-3 of them exist purely as button/ability slot filler for the ones I want to use.

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Originally Posted by zXr

Simplified systems lead to automation, aside from that taking away the 'choice' to mess up and still do some amount of damage or mess up and freak out that you stopped doing damage...or realize it after the wipe because you are a 1h playing fool!

But hey they could implement a 'shame bunny' variant for all jobs!

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Simplified systems =/= intuitive systems. The OP's aim seems to more closely resemble the latter. Removing absolute false choices does not simplify a system. It just puts up fewer (even if minor) roadblocks.

If the "combo" skills had reason to be used out of combo, and then we removed that ability, then such would impair or outright cripple gameplay surrounding those abilities. But there is no such reason. Each combo is in itself one decision, essentially one ability. There's nothing loss in making its controls follow its design.

Now, I'd rather each skill be usable separately with varying synergies that allow for various strategic "open" combos, but short of that, why reject an intuitive system for what's actually being given. Are we too in love with the concept that we're given multiple skills even while hesitant to have any additional thought or strategy expected of us as to make use of them? If combos work for you, that's the design. The rest is just making the UI actually fit, rather than hinting at something more and being unwilling to provide it -- almost with mocking contempt.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

So you want the game to become a mindless button masher?

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How is 1, 2, 3; 1, 4, 5; 1, 4, 6 any less mindless than 1, 1, 1; 1, 2, 1; 1, 2, 2?

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

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I have no issue handling every key on my three bars. With my Caps turned into a Right Alt, it's even nearly comfortable. The issue is future proofing and, frankly, that the option is obvious given how the skills are currently treated in game. True Thrust is not a separate decision from Full Thrust. Once you've started the chain, you complete the chain. So how does it warrant 4 keys to do 1 function (pure DMG + 15s BotD)?

It's a matter of future-proofing. Unless SE wants to cut out even more skills that DO actually have tactical weight or decisions behind them, our bars are going to fill up, and the amount of binds will become uncomfortable to access all of—not in Stormblood, and, if they skimp on raw ability count, not even the expansion after. But it will happen. So why would you not take the opportunity to remove redundancies? Is Warrior made more interesting for having to use two different slots for Fell Cleave and Inner Beast (unless one wishes to macro them)?

In the brief example I gave, you go from 1-6 to 1 & 2 being used, for the exact SAME spread of abilities, and the SAME number of possible choices accessible at each juncture. How does taking up another 4 buttons at all times without them ever being usable at all times increase complexity? By your view, every Monk must already be mentally impaired, because (OH NO!!!) they can't actually flub 2/3s the amount of skills you can. And guess what? They at least have a skill that makes all their weaponskills simultaneously available. No one else does.

tl;dr

Why? Button bloat.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How is 1, 2, 3; 1, 4, 5; 1, 4, 6 any less mindless than 1, 1, 1; 1, 2, 1; 1, 2, 2?

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If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

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Basically this. I don't think people understand how their suggestions are pretty much a regurgitation of the same thing they have criticism for. I'm guessing it's because it's their idea, therefore it somehow functions differently lol. I don't think their point is that it's hard, just that it's what they see as unnecessary. For the same reason that they think it's unnecessary though, the contrary of it is not even remotely needed. To realize that though, people need to take a step back and view their suggestion as an outsider (objectively). If the devs feel the need to change it, fine. If they don't, fine. It's a non issue being promoted as though it were game changing.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

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Even with consolidated combos, it isn't gonna make you do good dps. You'd still have the same amount of skills to use, and you'd still have to know when to use them in order to maximise dps. It also isn't gonna use your abilities for you.
Sure, random "You-don't-pay-my-sub" dps number 5819 might end up doing 1000 dps instead of the 200 he did before, but that's still not gonna compare to the 4000 dps done by those that know how to play their job. Meanwhile, it's also gonna free up hotbar space, which means people can pack their skills closer together, so they won't need to do some weird finger gymnastics to reach rarely used skills anymore, and the extra space leaves room open for adding more interesting skills in the future.

I have tiny pianist fingers and I still manage to fat finger a combo once per run. MNK locking all jobs' combos might be oversimplification, but it'd be a decent change.

I'm not really seeing any complaints here about how MNK does basically exactly this already, so, not sure why we can't somewhat agree to spreading it to other jobs.

All skills that start a combo always available for restarting any combo. All 2nd/3rd skills in combo unavailable.
After skill 1, any skills that are a part of a combo available after skill 1 can now be used. 3rd skills still unavailable.
After skill 2 of whatever chosen combo, any 3rd skills in that combo are available.

What's so bad about "turning off" any combo skills that aren't highlighted? You literally never use them anyway.

I'm fine with the theory of this, however experiience with longer pings tells me this will hold people up in a similar way macros do. It's going to take too long to "activate" on the client side. An example that works like this already is enochian. fireIV doesn't light up until af+eno is there, and the longer ping you have, the longer you will wait until you can use it.