I am so sick of Thok ast Thok.... (Nerf request)

I surely can't be the only person who is entirely sick and tired, and just out of patience with this stupid fight coming up in daily roulettes.

I would wager a bet that if we had the option to opt-out of a single instance in the Roulette, a good majority of players would likely choose Thok ast Thok as the opt-out and nobody would ever get the thing done unless they went in with FC.

I am so sick and tired of losing money and time to wiping multiple times in your average PUG group that one ends up with when doing the Trials roulette, and the majority of the time, what should be a 5-6 minute thing ends up taking 30, 45+ minutes because of the need to build up 5+ stacks of Echo for people to survive the Butterfly Phase.

(Really, SE? 1000 character limit? *sigh* very well. Continued in next)

The Butterfly Phase just requires too much coordination, and it is too easy for one single player to wipe the entire raid. It only takes ONE player to wipe the WHOLE group either by accident, and not realizing what is actually going on (the game does not tell you whatsoever), or intentionally (there are griefers out there and it is difficult sometimes to tell who is doing it). It only takes ONE player who is not in coordination with everybody else to cause enough swords to fall that Ravana simply wipes the whole group with that unavoidable instant death attack.

And then, should you survive the Butterfly Phase, is the ridiculous number of knockback attacks that he starts doing that cover 90% of the arena without warning, so new players have yet even more to learn, and should they die to THAT, welp, we wipe again because they can't be resurrected. So we have to AGAIN go through the Butterfly Phase.

(continued in next)

This boss would feel more at home in an optional endgame raid than the MSQ, and that Butterfly Phase is more suitable for something you would find in an Extreme Primal, rather than the normal MSQ version.

My suggestions (pick one):

1). In Non-Extreme, the butterflies should not drop swords, or the butterflies should have greatly reduced health, and perhaps longer casting time on Falling Laughter.

2). No instant death due to falling outside the arena -- similar to Leviathan, the walls should not break away in Non-Extreme.

(cont)

This would alleviate much of the problem, and make Thok ast Thok a battle that people don't have to groan, roll their eyes, or end up wasting 30+ minutes of their time on, only to have the group break up after several wipes.

Thok ast Thok does not feel very balanced, because it is easily the hardest boss in the entire Trials Roulette, yes, even harder than Nidhogg's Shade, despite the fact it shows up rather early in the Heavensward questline. Ravana is easily 5 times harder than Bismarck who comes after him, which just doesn't "feel" right, the difficulty spike just feels all wrong, and a boss like Ravana really belongs at endgame, because nothing else in the MSQ currently is even close to that kind of challenge.

(cont)

And, of course, I'm just sick of the stupid thing appearing in my Trials Roulette. I'm sick of losing 2,000+ gil in repairs every time he shows up, and of course the 30-45 minutes and sometimes we don't even end up completing the duty because the group breaks up, because more and more I see people who just have no patience for it, and I'm getting to be that way myself even though I generally try to stick around to help people, I recognize the fight as being far over-tuned for when you fight him.

I think a lot of regular Trials Roulette runners would be a lot happier if he were brought down a bit, at least the (Hard) version of him. Extreme can be challenging, because that's optional content.

(Finally. 1000 character limit is just ridiculous, it's difficult to actually post coherent thought with twitter-like messages).

err how's about NO?

This non-extreme fight is a complete joke even the butterfly phase.

I can understand that the quality of the comunity that is still playing for the next month has taken a nose dive until SB but that is no reason to request nerfing of super easy content

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

err how's about NO?

This non-extreme fight is a complete joke even the butterfly phase.

I can understand that the quality of the comunity that is still playing for the next month has taken a nose dive until SB but that is no reason to request nerfing of super easy content

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"Super Easy Content"....

I'm tired of wiping again and again and again every time he shows up, and you still haven't addressed why we should have a boss at Lv54 that's harder than anything Lv54->60. That's just unbalanced, entirely. And no boss should have a mechanic where ONE out of 8 players can wipe the whole raid by doing it wrong, lol. That's just stupid.

I am so sick and tired of content being nerfed into the ground because people are utterly unwilling to even attempt to do it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

"Super Easy Content"....

I'm tired of wiping again and again and again every time he shows up, and you still haven't addressed why we should have a boss at Lv54 that's harder than anything Lv54->60. That's just unbalanced, entirely. And no boss should have a mechanic where ONE out of 8 players can wipe the whole raid by doing it wrong, lol. That's just stupid.

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Only in recent weeks have I personal have wipe so much on Thok ast Thok and The Limitless Blue or even the lifegate in Dun Scaith.
when these first came out you could easily finish these without a single wipe.
I'm sorry if you are not managing to do that now but asking for this to be nerfed is NOT the answer.
Like I said quite a bit of the comunity is taking a break from FFXIV until Stormblood (inculuding myself), So I believe that you are just unlucky and getting some pretty bad parties.

if you are needing this for clearing purposes I woulds suggest trying in PF.

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

I am so sick and tired of content being nerfed into the ground because people are utterly unwilling to even attempt to do it correctly.

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thank you for putting my words in a shorter form

Well, unfortunately, that's what happens in random groups. Optional Content is where challenge should be, because that's done by groups of players who know each other, who choose to do said optional content. MSQ fights should not be that hard for that reason, because everybody is pretty much forced to do it.

And again, the boss is out of balance. The last fight in Heavensward is The Griffin, which is far easier. He telegraphs his attacks in a way that makes it very easy to understand what he's doing. Or, if you want to talk about 8 person fights, Nidhogg's Shade is even easier. He has some attacks (especially that stack mechanic) that can kill people, but again...

1). No Permadeath, which means peeps can be rezzed.
2). He, too, telegraphs what he's doing and the mechanics can be understood without the need of a wiki/guide/what not.

Ravana is just out of balance, there's no way to refute that.

1. You can edit posts to bypass the 1000 character limit on a single post.
2. You can just quit the duty if it's not to your liking, no need to babby mode a toddler mode fight.

Of all the Dark Souls players responding here, still nobody has actually said anything having to do with the issue of him being out of balance compared to bosses after him.

Apparently nobody who has posted here yet has any idea how "Progression" should work. You know, you start out with something easy and it gets gradually harder as you get further on? Well, that doesn't happen here when 1 boss is far, far harder than all the bosses that come after him.

And quitting duties incurs penalties, lol. I shouldn't have to take a penalty, or end up with repair bills, because of one over-tuned boss that keeps showing up in my roulette.

I'm sorry but if "killing adds fast", a mechanic you learn to deal with in your FIRST content, is still too hard,
if simply not attacking a HUGE SHIELD associated with a buff on Ravana that tells you NOT to attack it is too hard, the problem is not from the game side.

Stop asking for nerf. Stop making the game more and more a braindead activity.
The more you nerf the game, the worst the skillceil fall.
Bouhouh challenge should not be mandatory, bouhouhou killing adds that have close to no HP is too hard.
Content post Ravana is not easiear because of the mechanics, it is easier because your are not synched down, and overgear them by way too much.
Ravana story mode is very easy. There is not much to be done if killing a bunch of adds is litteraly too hard.

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Originally Posted by Mejingjard

I'm sorry but if "killing adds fast", a mechanic you learn to deal with in your FIRST content, is still too hard,
if simply not attacking a HUGE SHIELD associated with a buff on Ravana that tells you NOT to attack it is too hard, the problem is not from the game side.

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It's more than "kill adds fast", because the entire raid has to be on the SAME add, or two adds max. What I tend to see in my groups is everybody picking their own mob, OR, people spamming AoEs which means none of them die before they drop a sword.

Even after the first wipe, we try to explain it in chat, and they still just don't get it. We try marking adds, that doesn't work either.

Just tell me, what exactly am I supposed to do?

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Stop asking for nerf. Stop making the game more and more a braindead activity.

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Stop insisting on the game's required content to be hard enough to cause so many wipes. Seriously, you want challenge? Go to Savage Raids.

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Content post Ravana is not easiear because of the mechanics, it is easier because your are not synched down, and overgear them by way too much.
Ravana story mode is very easy. There is not much to be done if killing a bunch of adds is litteraly too hard.

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Gotta love how people understate things. Oi.

Bismarck is a Sync'd fight, and Bismarck is after Ravana, and Bismarck is far, far easier. Or how about Nidhogg's first battle? That's Sync'd and that's nowhere near as hard. NONE of the Sync'd story fights after Ravana are anywhere near as hard as Ravana himself is. Even when you get a group that is entirely sync'd, one person dropping AoE's in the butterfly phase means a wipe.

And again, this isn't about ME or my skill. I know the fight. It's about me being stuck in a group with 7 other players, and ONE player not doing it right is enough to wipe the whole group again and again and again.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Optional Content is where challenge should be, because that's done by groups of players who know each other, who choose to do said optional content. MSQ fights should not be that hard for that reason, because everybody is pretty much forced to do it.

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It's this exact mentality that has led to the vast majority of required, made-for-grinding content being mind-numbingly simplistic and an absolute boring dreg to do on a daily basis. Like the fight against The Griffin you bring up. Which, I'll add, is the final boss of a (again, mind-numbingly simplistic) dungeon, rather than a dedicated "Trial" bossfight like Ravana.

Also I'll throw out that I had to do Thok ast Thok "Hard" earlier today, and while we wiped once due to there being several new people who weren't aware of the importance of the adds, we nonetheless cleared right after with minimal issues towards the end.

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

It's this exact mentality that has led to the vast majority of required, made-for-grinding content being mind-numbingly simplistic and an absolute boring dreg to do on a daily basis. Like the fight against The Griffin you bring up. Which, I'll add, is the final boss of a (again, mind-numbingly simplistic) dungeon, rather than a dedicated "Trial" bossfight like Ravana.

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MSQ content should not be hard, because IT IS REQUIRED TO DO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER IN THE ENTIRE GAME PERIOD. Entire areas are locked out if you don't do the MSQ. The fights need to be designed that most people, young, old, and even impaired need to be able to clear the content.

How can you not understand that?



That's why we we have optional raiding content, for the group of more hardcore players who want a challenge. That's why Extreme Modes exist, for players who want that.

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Also I'll throw out that I had to do Thok ast Thok "Hard" earlier today, and while we wiped once due to there being several new people who weren't aware of the importance of the adds, we nonetheless cleared right after with minimal issues towards the end.

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Yeah, well, yesterday I wound up in a group that wiped 3 times and half the group disbanded mid-duty and I wound up with a 2500 repair bill. After the first wipe, I took the time to explain it, and what did we see on the 3rd attempt? people laying down area AoEs during the butterfly phase. The WHM casting Holy. *sigh*

45 minutes down the drain because people refuse to follow directions.

OK lets look at the case of "The Steps of Faith"....

This was a joke when it first came out as long at all 8 people WORKED TOGETHER

this got nerfed into the ground to the point were any DF group at the time could finish it

recently I have wiped a multiple times on this trial so I got a good idea lets nerf this even further than it already has been (note to devs this is not a surggestion or a request or a demard)

we actually need content not to be nerf into the ground

and btw I hate Dark souls from what I hear about it since its to hard for me

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Originally Posted by Maeka

MSQ content should not be hard, because IT IS REQUIRED TO DO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER IN THE ENTIRE GAME PERIOD. Entire areas are locked out if you don't do the MSQ. The fights need to be designed that most people, young, old, and even impaired need to be able to clear the content.

How can you not understand that?

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You're acting as if everyone and their mother says Thok ast Thok is hard. It's not, you just got paired with crap players, and that's the reality of the situation... not that it's too hard.

If it was hard, you know, 2 years ago when it first released, it would have been nerfed already... but it hasn't so...

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Originally Posted by Maeka

MSQ content should not be hard.

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This content isn't hard. If it was as horrific as you claim, no one would have advanced through the game. But guess what? People have, and continue to do so.

You got a bad group. Boo-hoo. It happens all the bleeding time to absolutely everyone. Plenty of players are just plain bad. And guess what? Making all required content do-able while in a state of braindeath only encourages such poor performance. A bare minimum challenge, which is all that this presents, helps keep players invested and encourages growth and learning.

Content that is *required* to do anything in the game whatsoever (yanno, like an ENTIRE EXPANSION!?) should be easy so that the majority of the player base can realistically clear it, especially if it is also included in a roulette. If you end up with one or two bosses in a roulette where wipes are too common then people stop running the roulette in question because they are tired of ending up in that fight. Then you get into situations where players start getting locked out of content, and that's not good for anybody involved either.

As for Steps of Faith, I would even consider that easier than Ravana, by far. Even if you're the tank trying to tank the mobs. That, and you know, I've yet to wipe on SoF. I've wiped a couple times on Final Steps of Faith, but never twice in the same duty.

Ravana, on the other hand. This is what, 5-6 times now, there were 2-4 wipes in the same duty? This is really getting old.

The "Bad groups" are CONSISTENT. It has to do with the boss having mechanics you see nowhere else but in optional raids. And again it isn't just "kill adds", it's "Somehow magically get everybody in a PUG to focus-fire one or two specific adds out of 6+ that are all named the same thing".

The last several times I've gotten stuck in Thok ast Thok, there've been 2+ wipes, and/or people disbanding. Apparently, I'm not the only person who is tired of it.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

As for Steps of Faith, I would even consider that easier than Ravana, by far. Even if you're the tank trying to tank the mobs. That, and you know, I've yet to wipe on SoF. I've wiped a couple times on Final Steps of Faith, but never twice in the same duty.

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Are we talking about the current Steps of faith or the non-nerf (as it got originally relase) Steps of Faith which was so hard you could have easily failed it a number of times if the group was not talking to each other? (I sence you never tried Steps of faith in these "dark days")

Talking about current SoF. If SoF was that way back then, then the nerf was indeed justified and I'm glad they nerfed it. That kind of crap belongs in optional raids, not being Beef Gates to an entire expansion. I don't believe in locking huge swaths of content (again, like an entire expansion) behind stuff that people just wipe over and over and over again on.

Like it or not, there's always been a place for casual players, the older people with slower reaction times, impaired people, or early teenagers and they pay the same monthly fees you do. Trying to lock such people out of the game because you think they don't deserve it is just stupid, and it has never been healthy for any MMO that has tried this.


If the game were designed the way people in this thread seem to want it..... well, look at what happened to Wild Star. I remember when that first was advertised and when it came out, people were going "YAY AN MMO THAT ISN'T EASY!" .....well, guess what? Looks like the hardcore crowd is much in the minority; it didn't do very well. I remember when Cataclysm came out in WoW, Blizzard tried to cater to the Hardcore crowd... guess what? People left in droves. They put easier content in Mists of Pandaria and the subs shot right back up. Then they tried to go harder with Warlords and it did a nosedive again.

I feel your frustration OP, me and another healer had a group that struggled with the phases of that fight, we marked stuff to kill first, and marked places to stand... it was one of those instances where I met a fellow healer with the same stubborn mindset as myself, wanting to get them to clear it and not quit... alas too many dropped out after a few fair wipes. I agree with you that there is always a place for more casual players, people with slower reaction times and not everyone is at the same level of play, but nerfing isn't the answer, I feel the JP servers do it better, learning in PF with like-minded people and at your own pace, or with friends/fc, then attempting DF once you feel comfortable with it.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

...should be easy so that the majority of the player base can realistically clear it...

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A majority of the player base has already cleared this content, so this comment is a self defeating argument in itself. Ravana was semi-challenging without being mind numbing easy. Think Titan HM, which I might remind you, was a pain back in it's day, and is now a joke. If people are wiping, and you've cleared it clearly... You should explain the fight. Whether you like it or not, it falls on the people who have cleared the fight to help those who have not. Even if you're not a mentor.

What this conversation has already boiled down too is you saying the content needs a nerf, because select groups can't "Git Gud."

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If the game were designed the way people in this thread seem to want it..... well, look at what happened to Wild Star. I remember when that first was advertised and when it came out, people were going "YAY AN MMO THAT ISN'T EASY!" .....well, guess what? Looks like the hardcore crowd is much in the minority; it didn't do very well. I remember when Cataclysm came out in WoW, Blizzard tried to cater to the Hardcore crowd... guess what? People left in droves. They put easier content in Mists of Pandaria and the subs shot right back up. Then they tried to go harder with Warlords and it did a nosedive again.

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This again, you really are stubborn with this crappy argument (not especially you, everyone who comes up with that crap).
We don't say we want savage content everywhere, We are saying we don't want training dummies as opponents everywhere except savage.

Again, if killing a bunch of adds in time, when the Main Tank can kill one quickly enough while tanking ravana, is considered hard, then even a training dummy whould be a challenge for some.
Ravana is NOT hard. Killing stupid adds with low HP is NOT HARD. If 4 dps, an OT can not handle such a easy task, they are just plainly bad.
Stop asking to nerf everything. I'll say it again : the more you nerf, the worst the average skill lvl evolve. And the less the new content will be interesting.
You got paired with really bad players because I almost never spent that much time in Ravana, even when I got 7 newcomers in my party.

As for the Original SoF, it was not hard again, you just had to pay attention to what the PNJ where saying. Grabing a canon, shooting things with it... is that so hard to notice canon's attack was a aoe of 2000 damages, spammed every 2 seconds, wich is far stronger than any dps could achieve at that time? Even now I see players stuggling with the nerfed SoF. Many players managed through it in one timer for their first tries.
But naaaah, everything must be completed without even looking at the screen. Why is it so hard to focus for 10 minutes on a fight? If you dont want to do it, then don't play instead of complaining and ruining the game for all who enjoy having more things to do than hitting a defenseless foe.
There is an old saying : To achieve victory without peril, we triumph without glory.
The only thing nerfing content do is increasing the gap between players, and making it even harder to please everyone for future content.
A last time : we are not wishing for savage content, we are wishing for more Ravana or Ozma content. They are easy if you simply focus on the fight. We dont want everything to be a training dummy nor a savage boss. There is a lot of options between those two extremes.
Stop being weaklings dwelling in mediocrity. Raise you head and step up your game instead of crying for nerfs as soon as you can't faceroll something.
Content being in the main scenario is not an excuse for not having to stick your fingers out of your butt.
A lot of player managed to do it. Why should the game cater to lazy players's exigences ?

Remeber well that the more you nerf, the less content will be thrilling. That will lead to "ellitist" players to leave. Those same players who writes guides, make the economy of the game run, develop tools, you know, those players that do so much for the community...
Then will stay only lazy/bad players, impervious to skilling up, and content catered to them : boss that does nothing. Players get bored, raising at each other throats for litteraly nothing.
The game should not cater to such selfish request. If they do not want to put effort in such easy fights as ravana, they don't deserve a clear. Period.

BTW : Wildstar was not hard when you understood that interrupting telegraph gave you a 150% damage bonus. Players were just insanely bad (and this is due to the artistic direction, far more appealing toward casual players). Besides, it has always been advertised as a Hardcore targeted game.

Interestingly I've had the opposite experience with Bismark and Ravana TC. I remember wiping a lot in Ravana when it was first released and Bismark being smooth whereas these days when they pop in Trial Roulette I see way more wipes in Bismark.

Both Trials take more care than a lot of others in the roulette as players are synced. You also have to deal with having incomplete ability sets and new players who may be struggling with learning to use new skills. However I have to agree with others in this topic that they are not that hard overall.

If you don't feel like dealing with bad groups in Ravana you can always take the penalty and do something else in the meantime.

This is funny to me because I just got Thok ast Thok last night for trial roulette. I queued by myself last night after FC mates logged to play other games.

So there's me, a WAR who queued by myself, and 7 random people.

And everyone did just fine. We did end up getting one sword during add phase but it was a butterfly in Tapasya range and I didn't see it in time (I can solo butterflies with Fell Cleave). Although everyone else had multiple vulnerability stacks, the group managed to clear just fine. I shared Blinding Blade with the MT a few times just cause he had so many stacks, but it was otherwise a pretty standard run.

I've only had one Thok ast Thok run that was so bad in the past few months that someone had to drop.

Have you tried explaining mechanics to groups that wipe? I've done that with virtually every trial in the game and there is always improvement. People want to clear content. Sometimes they just need more information so that they understand how.

I need clarification....is this about Ravana (Story) or Ravana (Extreme)......I'm pretty sure both can be easily cleared with a half party....

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Originally Posted by Pence

I need clarification....is this about Ravana (Story) or Ravana (Extreme)......I'm pretty sure both can be easily cleared with a half party....

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Oddly the OP is talking about Ravana (Story)

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

Oddly the OP is talking about Ravana (Story)

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I thought it was extreme as first too, wrote whole novel, went back to read it again because I didn't wanted to miss something, just to come and find out... Nope it's story. So it would have been pointless, moving on!

My complaint with roulettes only applies to getting a primal for leveling roulette... waste of a leveling roulette... as far as ravana being too hard it's like titan hm used to be.... I'd say it's almost harder to walk to the actual fight in the msq than the fight itself

Im going to join the chorus here. The hardest thing about this fight is the level you do it at. Level 53-54 is an awkward spot in the leveling curve for a lot of classes. Youre just starting to get new tricks to make your level 50 rotation(which, ok, not everyone actually learns but this goes to the argument some are making about the skill level needing to increase not the difficulty needing to decrease) obsolete, but you dont yet have the key tricks that make your level 60 rotation work. But that doesnt make it hard, just annoying. As a BLM, i can 2 shot the normal butterflies(the moon ones have more hp, so they take more effort). One or two dead DPS shouldnt even be enough to fail this check unless the rest just tunnel-vision and forget what they need to do. And while potentially falling off the edge is annoying(OMG did i hate titan), once the Bloody Fuller attack has been used the rest of the fight is very easy. Ive been in groups where half the people fell off and those who stayed above still easily finished him off before any healers ran out of mana. My experience has been that Bismark storymode is way harder, because some people just do not get that you cant hurt him without jumping on his back - AND you can still fall off and be un-resable(also, not all tanks seem to have gotten the memo about seperating the sanuwas which can lead to failed dps checks). And you cant even start to compare these with Final Steps, because you have your whole toolkit at that point(and is that one even syncd? its late enough in the story that it might not be).

No no no. The worst trial is Crysalis. The fight is annoyingly long(easily twice as long as ravanna), the orb phases seem to go on forever, and its SO easy for a troll or new player to LB before you get sent to meteor world(which doesnt make it impossible, just much harder). And im not asking for a nerf, just for RNG not to send me there too often.

The reason why ravana (story) is slightly harder than expected is due to being synced down to level 54, and players not having access to all of their abilities. This does not make it hard content, but it does mean that when players try to faceroll it like expert dungeons then it doesn't always work as planned (same can be said of dungeons like sohm al when compared to endgame dungeons).

Oh, and for the record, the content will be nerfed in 3 weeks, when it becomes available to be unsynced.

WHAT REALLY?! I just went in that this week with 4 FC members all on blind run other 4 including myself had the clear. A few deaths here and there but no wipe. OH you want both normal and ex nerfed hahahahahaha.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Oh, and for the record, the content will be nerfed in 3 weeks, when it becomes available to be unsynced.

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I think having the fight availble unsynced is enough of a nerf to warrant no further nerfs to be unneeded

In which alternate dimension is story mode ravana something to whine about? :/

The last couple of times I've landed this one in trial roulette (not even that often, as you have a truck load other trials you could land), I've had zero wipes, just the usual expected deaths to mechanics like being thrown off when the newbies don't know what they're doing yet.

Still, nothing annoying or time comsuming enough to warrant a nerf...

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

In which alternate dimension is story mode ravana something to whine about? :/

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I might be wrong but I think the OP is the only one in this whole thread asking for a nerf for this trial everyone else seems to be telling the OP how unneeded a nerf is

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I might be wrong but I think the OP is the only one in this whole thread asking for a nerf for this trial everyone else seems to be telling the OP how unneeded a nerf is

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Well, half of the replies are either childishly rude, bullying, throwing insults or/and laughing at what she's proposing.
a quarter others are replying to her by making terribly gross exagerations "arguments" or talking out of their asses (babies easy, everyone and their mother, ALL of playerbase cleared that content, etc).

Bad players, new players and players who like easy contents have the same rights as any of you to enjoy the game. OP is saying she doesnt enjoy this part of the gameplay and propose a solution to her problem.
If you disagree, be an adult and offer a solution to her needs already in game or look for a compromise. I learned this in problem resolution classes in high school. Comon guys !