Why Couldn't SMN summon everyting like Bahamut?

I thought we didn't summon giant summons because they were obstrusive but that bahamut is pretty big. So why again couldn't they give nice big summons for the summons instead of the ugly egis?

Probably because its only 20 seconds and really, matches the scale of Primal to Egi if we think about it hard enough. Titan-Egi is like, 1/20th of Titan, and Bahamut Egi seems to be about the same.

I think most of us thought of the actual primal size being summonned would be inconvenient but this scaling works well. So well in fact that I'd rather havr SMN having the ability to trance summon all primals like that than play the dot game.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I think most of us thought of the actual primal size being summonned would be inconvenient but this scaling works well. So well in fact that I'd rather havr SMN having the ability to trance summon all primals like that than play the dot game.

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Won't disagree, if they were all Bagamut Egi's size, it'd bring back some of the immersion to the job.

le sigh.. I wish it could be like that. Alas ill take what I can get. Im excited for Bahumut

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I thought we didn't summon giant summons because they were obstrusive but that bahamut is pretty big. So why again couldn't they give nice big summons for the summons instead of the ugly egis?

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Again SMNer player base doesn't get it. If the egis were designed the way you wanted in the current game structure. You would basically be BLM with different animations. If that is what you want ask for it. Not a pet job, with a persistent pet.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Probably because its only 20 seconds [...]

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And likely not usable every minute either. I expect anywhere between two and three minutes for a couple seconds of awesome.

They wanted to make it simpler.

But I think they are now listening and moving to the right direction. And I truly believe that in the next expansion we might even get to have the rest of the Egis like that.

So it's all going in the right direction

Wait for the next summon, Alexander :D

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I think most of us thought of the actual primal size being summonned would be inconvenient but this scaling works well. So well in fact that I'd rather havr SMN having the ability to trance summon all primals like that than play the dot game.

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THIS!! this would be SO AWESOME!! If SMN was based around this idea instead, I'd be more than happy with that

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And likely not usable every minute either. I expect anywhere between two and three minutes for a couple seconds of awesome.

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It requires two dreadwyrm trances to activate. So it's available every 2 minutes unless the cd for activating Bahamut is longer than that.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Again SMNer player base doesn't get it. If the egis were designed the way you wanted in the current game structure. You would basically be BLM with different animations. If that is what you want ask for it. Not a pet job, with a persistent pet.

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I don't think half the people talking about pet stuff even play SMN.

I am convinced at this point they Main other jobs. Most people who actually play with this Pet interface know its complete crap.

That said... about the Bahamut Summon... from what I saw in the Video it didn't even really look like a pet more like a visual effect...

With the Way Summoner is actually played its likely it will never see the light of day if it really is one.

Because of the Need for Deathflare (aka Teraflare) and how it works into your rotations either Single Target or AoE Trash Clearing, it will get canceled a lot, the same way the Ruin 3 spam leadup to Deathflare does, due to either possible Boss Mob invulnerability or the reality that Ruin 3 spam is useless and pointless on a pack of 6-12 mobs.

So I don't actually expect to see the real Bahamut Pet... (if it actually does function as one, that is)... to ever be used due to the realities of the SUM and how the game actually works.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I thought we didn't summon giant summons because they were obstrusive but that bahamut is pretty big. So why again couldn't they give nice big summons for the summons instead of the ugly egis?

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When you say summon everything like Bahamut you mean in general? Such as you summon Titan you get that chubby dirty thong primal jumping out?

There's a lore reason but that's a cheap way of getting around it. Personally I would agree still if we had that Bahamut out the entire time, imagine so many summoners. It would overshadow so much, it would be more of a pain than fun.

They could do like others suggested, mini-versions. I don't think something that big would be needed but who knows.

Then again, what would it fix? I still have to press En-kindle 6 times because it might get interrupted. Contagion takes more button tapping than most jobs do in 2 minutes...and staples so much for garuda to be used. Titan still little use. Shockwave still knocks stuff back so it's as annoying as fluid aura to some trash mobs. Ifrit still has no gap closer and has dementia for about 5 seconds until he knows where he's going. Flaming Crush is still around the pet and not around the targeted mob, and since no mobs are behind him it's a loss.

Then again, flashy is always appreciated too.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

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That was my point, it at least doesn't look like a pet it looks like a spell animation. Which is fine. If they want spell animations that look like avatars I don't see why they can't have that. But they get the two mixed up and want everything.

Realistically, if it were the actual size it would flood the screen and they would have to add a setting to where you can hide peoples pets

I prefer not, thanks, WHM spamming holy on the screen is already a pain but now imagine 10 summon of that size on the same place. Yay.

It generally needs to be temporary if your going to include something of that size, mostly for the sake of visibility and not overdoing the graphical effects. The Egis are a reasonable enough of a size to allow them to remain on the field for long periods of time without making things hard to see. FFXI had the larger summons and they were annoying as hell when left out for long periods of time, none the less if you had multiple summoners hanging around in the same place.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

It generally needs to be temporary if your going to include something of that size, mostly for the sake of visibility and not overdoing the graphical effects. The Egis are a reasonable enough of a size to allow them to remain on the field for long periods of time without making things hard to see. FFXI had the larger summons and they were annoying as hell when left out for long periods of time, none the less if you had multiple summoners hanging around in the same place.

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I guess people have different memories of FFXI summoners. SMN in FFXI with their awesome looking summons was the most iconic memory of the game for me.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I guess people have different memories of FFXI summoners. SMN in FFXI with their awesome looking summons was the most iconic memory of the game for me.

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The Avatars in XI were not optimized well much like quite a bit of XI and would literally cause graphical slow down for some individuals. SMNs were often relegated to glorified healers due to their large MP pools and their summons would use would be brought out for one ability then dismissed because of those issues. Iconic doesn't really mean much when it makes gameplay more difficult as result. The Egis appear to be a means to provide the summoning and pet functionality without compromising visibility.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I guess people have different memories of FFXI summoners. SMN in FFXI with their awesome looking summons was the most iconic memory of the game for me.

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I remember them looking awesome and I always thought a Summoner was a badass when I saw them lol, but I also remember a lot of mechanical issues (heard they're better nwo but I've not played any sort of recency). Although pet based jobs are not impossible, they're usually easier with turret sort of systems though.. like WoW's current Warlock does a crap ton of damage in pet spec but he's also dropping pet turrets like no tomorrow (sometimes 11+).

I think the current direction is pretty cool, I'd still love to see the Egi image tweaked via some progression in the future (or glamour) and I think changing bio and other poison related skills into one of the primal elemental would be awesome, but over all pretty damn cool.

I do think people's guess that Bahamut is not really under your control but more like WoW's stuff (big turret of doom) but I'm cool with that. Overall that trailer of summoner screamed summoner to me, to me summoner issue was mostly an image issue - like if they had FFXI's image but kept exactly FFXIV's mechanics I imagine the biggest issue people would complain about on the forums would be making pets easier to control and everything else would be relatively minor (well that and Garuda contagion lol). That's my imo at least, while I like to think about other ideas (different styles of summoner) I'm happy they didn't change it so much that people who love it don't recognize it anymore.. that's dangerous XD (just trading off on who is happy then, rather than overall happy gain).

Wonder if they're going to keep building on Bahamut or if we'll see another Elder Primal / Pinnacle Summon.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

The Avatars in XI were not optimized well much like quite a bit of XI and would literally cause graphical slow down for some individuals.

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Never heard of issues of having a summoner out.. and I had a meh PC back then, that must have been some really nice toaster they were using :D. I think adding a faded look for your allies's pets would a nice option though, Diablo 3 has a lot of stuff on screen and I think a really nice touch was the faded pets. For the most part being able to see your Summoner's Garuda is not really relevant to your party, except to your self, so a graphical option might be convenient.

Will be better for Odin events too, so I think they should think about that. Odin having 50+ Summoners all Bahamuting it up. I still think Bahamut seems like an excellent edition but being able to minimize impact on other people who just don't care what job you're playing only that you're playing it.. this option will be good :D

then bahamut wouldnt be as special

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Originally Posted by Averax

then bahamut wouldnt be as special

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I don't think it has to though (ruin Bahamut's special feeling I mean, doesn't have to ruin it). The summons in FF history - specifically the ones with CGI all had pretty epic events and Bahamut usually felt badass still~ Like even when you could whip it out Bahamut felt pretty cool in FFX (although I think some people started to favor Anima for reasons).

I might care about SMN more if I could have a full on Primal Ifrit or Garuda on my side, even temporarily...

But it would eat all of the framerate in raids.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I don't think it has to though (ruin Bahamut's special feeling I mean, doesn't have to ruin it). The summons in FF history - specifically the ones with CGI all had pretty epic events and Bahamut usually felt badass still~ Like even when you could whip it out Bahamut felt pretty cool in FFX (although I think some people started to favor Anima for reasons).

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Yeah I don't think this is an actual pet in this case (could be wrong).

I actually think this is just a visual effect with a twist on the old mechanic of Ruin 3 Spam lead up to Deathflare.

So I don't think it will actually downgrade Bahamut, as an Epic creature in this case.

This would be something interesting, I just don't think a lot of that extra stuff will get used much due to Boss Mob invulnerability cycles and AoE mob pack type battles.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

SMNs were often relegated to glorified healers.

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Going to make my usual reminder that SMN in XI hasn't been this way for nearly a decade and is still going strong. SMN's myriad difficulties back then were due to bad scaling systems and an almost complete back of gear with Pet bonus stats, perpetuated by developers who seemed to not know how to make a pet job work; the fact that it works well now demonstrates that the problem was not with the pet-focused theme of the job.

With regards to Bahamut, I think this embodies the problem I have with XIV's SMN. SE have repeatedly said in the past that a pet-focused SMN wouldn't work because of the size of the summons, among other things, and this goes some way to proving that was at least in part a lie. It's not around for long, but it's there. This Bahamut just illustrates that they can do anything they want to. They choose to make SMN the way it is.

Watching the video again, I can't help but notice that the green skeleton-bird still does almost nothing. The most exciting thing it does is die. I also can't help but notice that 90% of what's happening is the character throwing direct spells at a target. 20 seconds of a (admittedly really good looking!) Bahamut summon, most of which is filled with hurling spells out of a book, doesn't make SMN any more appealing for me; instead, I'm frustrated for what it could have been all the more.

I know that a lot of people are super excited about this, and I'm happy for you all! I was just hoping for something a bit more fundamental to change. I knew it was a futile wish, but they often are.

SMNs get Bahamut... SMNs still complain. If I was Yoshi-p I would say forget this playerbase lol

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

Going to make my usual reminder that SMN in XI hasn't been this way for nearly a decade and is still going strong. SMN's myriad difficulties back then were due to bad scaling systems and an almost complete back of gear with Pet bonus stats, perpetuated by developers who seemed to not know how to make a pet job work; the fact that it works well now demonstrates that the problem was not with the pet-focused theme of the job.

With regards to Bahamut, I think this embodies the problem I have with XIV's SMN. SE have repeatedly said in the past that a pet-focused SMN wouldn't work because of the size of the summons, among other things, and this goes some way to proving that was at least in part a lie. It's not around for long, but it's there. This Bahamut just illustrates that they can do anything they want to. They choose to make SMN the way it is.

Watching the video again, I can't help but notice that the green skeleton-bird still does almost nothing. The most exciting thing it does is die. I also can't help but notice that 90% of what's happening is the character throwing direct spells at a target. 20 seconds of a (admittedly really good looking!) Bahamut summon, most of which is filled with hurling spells out of a book, doesn't make SMN any more appealing for me; instead, I'm frustrated for what it could have been all the more.

I know that a lot of people are super excited about this, and I'm happy for you all! I was just hoping for something a bit more fundamental to change. I knew it was a futile wish, but they often are.

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I never bought the size argument because we have a lot of other MMORPGs that haven't exploded that have larger pets, FFXIV especially coming from such a flashy exuberant history is quite small. Although I agree that we should be concerned about "full size summons" besides the lore reason they're really big, but there really is nothing wrong with 1x 2x your character size, rather than the .5x we have.

On question about your issue with summoner, would you be happier if your skills were more primal based? Like if you had Ifrit Egi out and you cast bio its actually burn? Or even more that the burn is pulled from your Ifrit Egi and applied to your target, like some people are theorizing how the Bahamut mechanic works (your spells go through him). Or is it that you want to watch the pet itself do the damage, purely? I'm just asking if its the "image" or the mechanic. Because I've read a lot of people who just want to see more primal related activities, and don't like spending most of their rotation not doing primal stuff, but to change that part doesn't actually require a fundamental change to the mechanics.

Mostly I ask because I think people would be happier as a whole if we could make changes that don't go away from the core we have, changing a class underneath someone is something you probably only want to do if you're sure the end result is going to be massively better lol. (Like "100% sure").

Definitely I'm one of the people who liked what I saw in the trailer, although I still (as have always wanted) to see the Egi look better either through mechanic or just some native tier up (and feel that the DoT and like spells have opportunity to pull elemental ideas without changing summoner mechanics at all, like Bane = plume, Fester = Nail, etc).

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Yeah I don't think this is an actual pet in this case (could be wrong).

I actually think this is just a visual effect with a twist on the old mechanic of Ruin 3 Spam lead up to Deathflare.

So I don't think it will actually downgrade Bahamut, as an Epic creature in this case.

This would be something interesting, I just don't think a lot of that extra stuff will get used much due to Boss Mob invulnerability cycles and AoE mob pack type battles.

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I don't think Bahamut is controllable either, but he probably will follow you around and behave like a super turret - or maybe as you said he just does stuff when you do like your spells go "through" him. Either or haha.

All of that I'm cool with, and is actually a lot easier to balance (like even WoW has a high level of turret like quality to the pet spec, they do stuff but they're like DoTs turned into nice looking animated creatures, minus your main pet who has some abilities still). You're right about timer management with the invulnerability stuff, WoW Warlock also has this issue - this is why they have insane sustained damage on stationary targets but have issues with getting it out on high phase / mobility things (and where knowing the fight phases helps).

Excited to whip him out.. Going to go into some level 1 area and be like BAHAMUT, HELP ME... KILL ALL THE RABBITS! It'll be great :3

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Originally Posted by Remus

SMN get Bahamut... SMNs still complain. If I was Yoshi-p I would say forget this playerbase lol

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I know it sounds really ungrateful... I suppose in a way it is. Still, if SE released a job called "Paladin" and it played like a Ranger, I think I'd be entitled to complain. This feels the same to me. "Ranger PLD" that gets Provoke at lv70 is still "Ranger PLD" and not the Paladin you'd expect.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

On question about your issue with summoner, would you be happier if your skills were more primal based?

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I'm interested in a job that allows me to interact with the pet I summon, so it's not just sitting there auto-attacking most of the time. Altering the aesthetics of Bio etc wouldn't give me any more of a "summoner" vibe than what we already have right now. As you say, though, a lot of people seem to like this sort of idea, and I can appreciate why they find it appealing.

Obviously the sort of changes I'm looking for would be impractical to fold into SMN as it currently exists. I'm in favour of just renaming exist SMN as "Arcanist", and having a new SMN build from the ground up. It's never going to happen, but I can dream.

I guess I'm just looking for something too specific, really. Or maybe it's an outdated class archetype? I'm not really sure.

Tbh I Main SMN and in proper happy about it because it feels a bit more like a SMN. and it's not only me you should of seen the twitch chat when bahamut was shown lol

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

If they want spell animations that look like avatars I don't see why they can't have that. But they get the two mixed up and want everything.

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no, they don't. those are different groups of people.

I do feel like Summoner in XI looked decidedly cooler (in terms of summons, at any rate).

I get not wanting to have Titan's giant, loin cloth-wearing booty blocking the whole screen, but even a mini Titan would be cooler than our floating nugget (I would 100% glamour the Titan minion as my summon).

That said, I think Bahamut and the rest of the new SMN abilities look pretty great.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

Going to make my usual reminder that SMN in XI hasn't been this way for nearly a decade and is still going strong. SMN's myriad difficulties back then were due to bad scaling systems and an almost complete back of gear with Pet bonus stats, perpetuated by developers who seemed to not know how to make a pet job work; the fact that it works well now demonstrates that the problem was not with the pet-focused theme of the job.

With regards to Bahamut, I think this embodies the problem I have with XIV's SMN. SE have repeatedly said in the past that a pet-focused SMN wouldn't work because of the size of the summons, among other things, and this goes some way to proving that was at least in part a lie. It's not around for long, but it's there. This Bahamut just illustrates that they can do anything they want to. They choose to make SMN the way it is.

Watching the video again, I can't help but notice that the green skeleton-bird still does almost nothing. The most exciting thing it does is die. I also can't help but notice that 90% of what's happening is the character throwing direct spells at a target. 20 seconds of a (admittedly really good looking!) Bahamut summon, most of which is filled with hurling spells out of a book, doesn't make SMN any more appealing for me; instead, I'm frustrated for what it could have been all the more.

I know that a lot of people are super excited about this, and I'm happy for you all! I was just hoping for something a bit more fundamental to change. I knew it was a futile wish, but they often are.

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I'm well aware of the drastic changes to all the pet jobs over the years. I was around when BST gained prominent for awhile. It took a very long time for BST, PUP, and SMN to be worth much of thing and occurred during the later years of XI when the game had already lost a lot of its steam. Whether it is now or not, XI pet system was not real well thought out when it was first introduced.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

I'm well aware of the drastic changes to all the pet jobs over the years. I was around when BST gained prominent for awhile. It took a very long time for BST, PUP, and SMN to be worth much of thing and occurred during the later years of XI when the game had already lost a lot of its steam. Whether it is now or not, XI pet system was not real well thought out when it was first introduced.

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That's absolutely true, but the fact that it works -now- and the only thing that's been changed is supporting gear and potencies, not the core system, illustrates that the core system is fundamentally sound. I was mainly trying to address this:

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

Iconic doesn't really mean much when it makes gameplay more difficult as result.

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by expressing that the gameplay isn't necessarily more difficult, flawed, or otherwise inappropriate when using the pet system XI employs. Apologies for any confusion.

If this is something you can do on the fly, I fully expect people to have him out and run through the Quicksand yelling "THE END IS NEAR!!!"

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

If this is something you can do on the fly, I fully expect people to have him out and run through the Quicksand yelling "THE END IS NEAR!!!"

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Assuming it requires the Dreadwyrm Trance (as it looks like) it won't be possible will be difficult, maybe in housing areas though :D.

Dreadwyrm needs aetherflow consumed, which Summoners have Bane (target), Fester (target), Painflare (target), and Energy Drain (target). Change one of those to a targetless low cooldown ability and yeh.. Quicksand is going to be a Bahamut party for a while lol.


Although. . . the really determined might go build it else where and bring it in ready XD.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Again SMNer player base doesn't get it. If the egis were designed the way you wanted in the current game structure. You would basically be BLM with different animations. If that is what you want ask for it. Not a pet job, with a persistent pet.

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But SMN isn't a pet job. The pet for most intents and purposes is just a glorified DoT.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

But SMN isn't a pet job. The pet for most intents and purposes is just a glorified DoT.

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Well then instead of all these EGI complaint threads say you want spell animations not pets. I am sure that the dev team can make spell animations and remove the pet.

To the 11 players SMNers were so awesome. Go back to Quicksand caves and soloing worms. To the people who never played 11 it was not a golden age of awesomeness. If they didn't know a brd or rdm they could go days/weeks with out getting a group. So they would go kill worms by themselves since worms can't move. They would use only one pet since it had a 0 mp consumption carbuncle. It was like that for years.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

To the 11 players SMNers were so awesome. Go back to Quicksand caves and soloing worms. To the people who never played 11 it was not a golden age of awesomeness. If they didn't know a brd or rdm they could go days/weeks with out getting a group. So they would go kill worms by themselves since worms can't move. They would use only one pet since it had a 0 mp consumption carbuncle. It was like that for years.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

Going to make my usual reminder that SMN in XI hasn't been this way for nearly a decade and is still going strong.

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I know it's a favourite passtime on XIV forums to bash XI, but it's not helpful to refer to events that happened in the late 2000s. I've done the soloing worms and bombs, and I've had my fair share of rants on the XI forums about SMN in the past - things were bad. Were bad! But you're talking about getting merit points on Colibri with bards and red mages, and soloing worms in QSC. That was in 2006. It was more than a decade ago. There have been times when jobs in XIV haven't done well for a while; that doesn't mean they're cursed to oblivion forever. A few potency tweaks and most problems are solved fairly quickly.

I mean, XI has its faults, just like all games, but out of date information does not help informed decisions to be made. Just because the XI gear team couldn't figure out how to type "Pet: Magic Attack Bonus" for years doesn't mean a pet-focused model like XI's is unworkable.

I'm sure there are reasons why XIV's SMN is the way it is, but let's talk honestly about what those reasons might be instead of dismissing alternative ideas because of old prejudices that simply don't exist anymore.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

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I am referring to smn was useless pre page parties and abyss. But the simple fact that most jobs became over powered leveling machines in abyss/page era. So basically you want smn be like abyss powerful? We are still in the grouping era of gameplay MMO hence why I referred to the dregs smn was. When we get to the decline era when no one plays with each other, I will refer to the abyss/page era.

I actually feel you are greatly misrepresenting smn from 11. We could have said it was such a disregarded job they had to put the biggest gate to an expansion built around it. CoP proms fun times, ughh. They never got pet skills balance right.

Let us also mention 11 smn is in such a great spot now you can afk and farm using the current in game design. I quit before something called sparks was added. But I am told you can just afk in a spot where mobs agro and don't link and farm forever.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

I'm sure there are reasons why XIV's SMN is the way it is, but let's talk honestly about what those reasons might be instead of dismissing alternative ideas because of old prejudices that simply don't exist anymore.

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Or we can just accept the fact.... they're two completely different games... and what worked in one... does not work in the other.... and stretching it to fit isn't going to work.

.....Due to, completely different group related play, interface issues, lag, graffical abilities, Raids... right down to the base level game play differences in the way the trash mobs, mechanics, spells, agro, and boss mobs work.

That would be a good start.



Why did you need to use Sleepga, Sleep, and Sleep 2 for Crowd Control I FFXI?
Mostly because each individual mob was about as strong as a boss mob in this game, so you were literally just doing one boss mob battle to another back to back... and a single mob could destroy any single character... or the whole party.

What's different here?
Tank agro is much stronger, they can tank multiple hits from multiple crowds of mobs, and *shock* *boggle*, now suddenly and mysteriously AoE damage is actually usable in this game as to where it was useless in FFXI.

That's only one example... but an obvious one that shaped the base gameplay in each.