Looking for help with tanking

Hopefully this is a good board to ask on, since the tanking board seems to be where 60's talk. Right now I'm trying to learn to tank as a gladiator. I did the novice guild training but I don't find that really helps in an actual dungeon where other players are a consideration. Right now my basic pull is shield lob + flashX3 + enmity single target rotation. I've been having quite a bit of issue maintaining aggro, even though I see other tanks doing similar pulls with no real issue. Is there anything more or better I can do? I really want to become a good tank but if I can't even pull Sastasha correctly then I slowly feel like giving up.

Any tips or hints? Would really appreciate it. Thanks.

I find flash is usually only useful for aggro when you're dealing with at least three enemies. Aggro also gets significantly easier with higher-level actions.

Flash+Flash generates more enmity than FastBlade+SavageBlade, even against a single target. It's not until you get the enmity combo finisher (Rage of Halone at GLA26) that the enmity combo becomes worth it. Until then, Flash away most of your MP, then regain it with FastBlade+RiotBlade combos (which will also do more damage than FastBlade+SavageBlade, so once enmity is established, you want to use Riot Blade combos instead of Savage Blade combos).

If (1) you are geared and (2) you flash liberally, you'll never lose aggro. If you need help gearing, try making an inquiry to your server's novice network. There should be a few mentors who can recommend gear or maybe even craft some for you. Of the most importance is making sure your weapon is always current, as the weapon damage stat is the biggest contributor to damage output, and hence enmity generation.

And don't get discouraged if you lose hate a couple times, especially while you're still leveling and don't have your full skill set and especially against high level players. Even if they are synced down, they are still likely to generate a lot of hate. Pay attention around level 32 (Brayflox Longstop), it's the hardest time to maintain hate as Pld, since most dps classes get a hard hitting skill around that time, while Pld has to wait for his Shiels Oath (and that skill helps immensely with aggro generation) for a couple more levels.

On a sidenote, I think it's really awesome of you to come here for advice. Most people don't even bother and that way wwe get stuck with terrible tanks, who don't even try to improve, a lot.
Keep at it and you're gonna be a great Pld :)

Low level tanking can be pretty frustrating. If it's any consolation, most mob pulls won't be very dangerous, so don't stress too much over losing aggro. Chances are anyone that pulls hate off of you can probably handle anything they pulled.

Are you loosing your main target, or the other ones in the pull? What gear are you using? Up to level 20, pretty much the best you can have is the armor you get from the novice hall. Are you having mostly synced down players with you? That unfortunately means they have quite a better stats even while synced down.

Also, don't panick, this is something I learned when leveling tank. If the one target I was hitting was taken of me due the sheer damage it was receiving, it also meant it died within seconds, in casters case never even reaching it's new chosen target. If it looked it'll die before being serious threat to anyone, instead of trying to grab it back, I took a headstart hitting the next mob of the pull. I also had a habit of throwing a flash between the combos if my mana could afford it, to remind the surrounding monsters of my existence.

Low level is for sure harder to generate agro until you get more tools.
Flash+ Lob Shield as you are bringing mobs to other areas then Flash again once stopped.
Provoke also does come in handy later on and is a must have.
Rongway pretty much explained it better :)

One extra trick is to rotate your Rage of Halone combo between the mobs you're facing. Shield lob, pop flash, Halone combo on main mob your party is focusing on. Rotate to next mob with Halone combo, pop flash in between, and rotate back to the first mob. Sometimes I'll hit one mob with Savage Blade and another with Rage of Halone and then reverse, while weaving in a flash here and there to mix it up and sustain aggro. Just depends on the situation, and whether DPS is focusing on one target or multiple.

Here is a basic break down;

GLD/PLD: It's a great class to start as, friendly and easy to use traits. At low levels flash his your best friend. However, you need to time it. Lots of new tanks make the mistake of constantly spamming it. Should be done every 6-8 seconds for it to be effective. Once you have Shield oath keeping enmity is very easy. Get your class cross traits right away from MRD. Know your cool downs and rotate them properly.


MRD/WAR: A bit more advance tanking, aoe based. Some use flash as a cross trait, kind of pointless later on when you master it. Learn your aoes, rotations, and how TP affects you. Blood bath and overwhelm are a great combo for tough situations just watch your TP.

DRK: My personal favorite, easy to maintain enmity, balance power, can sprint and still grab mobs with aoes later on and one of the best for large pulls. Know your buffs, cross traits, and learn dark arts bonus asap.

HINTS OVER ALL: You are a tank, you can control the flow of runs. It's okay to be honest and start slow just let people know. Buy Max Potions, cheap do to POD, and can help grab enmity with multiple mobs or when healers grab enmity at start.

If you play all roles you will improve your tanking skills. Know how a healer thinks and works can help you analyze later on best course of actions. Before you know it will be a second nature if you really want to master tanking.

COMMUNICATE: If someone is over pulling please let them know. Basic rules: " I Pull I Tank, you pull by accident I will tank ( it happens ), keep pulling you tank I let you die. SPECIALLY after several warnings. : Don't worry some trolls out there.

Be open to tips or ask for them. Use markers at low levels when enmity is hard to maintain for easier flow. Rotate your attacks.

Range pulling, watch your surroundings, some link some don't.

TRY TO KEEP YOUR SELF WELL GEARED If under geared makes things harder.

Hope this helps.

Don't get discouraged at all if you lose aggro. Low-level tanking, especially for GLA, can be extremely difficult, even more so if all your party members are level-synced 60s. PLD tanking can also be pretty rough from levels 30 to 40, but once you get Shield Oath, it gets much better (and even better when you get Circle of Scorn at 50, since that's another AOE enmity skill to help you out). So don't be discouraged! In duties, feel free to tell your party "I'm still kind of new/learning how to tank" if you see that you are struggling, and hopefully you will get understanding party members that will do their best to adjust around you, and give you tips to help you. Even though GLA tanking can be hard at your level, you still chose the best tank class to start out on, since GLA/PLD is very user-friendly, and have tons of defensive cooldowns at their disposal to make your tanking job easier.

When I was a GLA, my basic low-level tanking rotation was: Shield Lob a group towards me, Flash 2 or 3 times, and then I would rotate my aggro combo on mobs (since we're speaking pretty low-level, Savage Blade combos), alternating with an additional Flash in between my Savage Blade combos as needed, and then start using Riot Blade to regen my MP for more Flash until the trash pack was dead. At level 26, you get your third-combo skill Rage of Halone (combos off of Fast Blade > Savage Blade), which makes holding hate even easier, and puts a Strength Down debuff on mobs. So you would use the same practice of Flashing 2-3 times, and rotating between mobs with RoH combos/Riot Blade combos to regen your MP as needed.

Basically, Flash is your best friend on GLA (and even on PLD), and don't feel like you're using it "too much;" just make sure to keep an eye on your MP and regen it when necessary with Riot Blade. Don't feel bad about only pulling one group at a time either. While learning how to tank, it is always best to take small bites, rather than biting off more than you can chew. It's much easier to rotate between 2 or 3 mobs than it is 5 or 6 when you're just starting out. With practice, you can slowly start to pull more/test your limits.

That being said, it's good practice to start rotating between mobs in your trash packs as often as you can, as some DPS enjoy targeting different mobs than you, and if you're paired with a THM/BLM/ACN/SMN/SCH/ARC/BRD/MCH, their AOE can also rip hate easily unless you rotate enough to keep the mobs focused on you. GLA/PLD doesn't have the kind of AOE skills that MRD/WAR and DRK have (Overpower, Steel Cyclone, Decimate, Unleash, Abysmal Drain), so definitely get into the habit of rotating now while you're lower level. Even if you choose to move on to MRD/WAR or DRK in the future, rotating is still a good practice to have, and I do it on all three tanks regardless of the amount of AOE enmity skills I may have.

You can easily check to see where your enmity is on mobs by glancing at the party list when you have one selected. At the bottom of each job icon is a small bar. For you, the bar should always be full white, with a capital "A" to the left of it. If you see a yellow bar with a "2" beside it that's almost full, that means that that party member is close to ripping hate from you, so you should focus on whichever mob they're close to stealing hate on with an aggro combo or two to reestablish your own enmity. Also, on the Enemy List, you should always see red squares next to the enemy names. This means that all mobs are focused on you. When you start seeing orange, yellow, or green, that means you've lost that mob, and you should target it and focus some aggro combos to take it back from whoever it is attacking (a quick Provoke + Shield Lob is good here for regaining hate on a mob that maybe wandered away from you to attack a healer or a ranged DPS, following up with a aggro combo or two on it when it wanders back within your range to keep it from wandering away again).

To make things easy on yourself, it's important to always make sure that your gear is as up-to-level as you can possibly have it, with green/pink dungeon gear being the best (at your current level), and HQ white gear being better than NQ white gear. Obviously, there is nothing wrong if you don't have the means of acquiring HQ tanking gear at your level; just try to keep your gear as close to your current level as possible. Especially your weapon. Having up-to-date gear will make you less squishy, so you'll take less damage and things will be easier on your healers, allowing them to help DPS mobs down so that you don't end up out of cooldowns before a trash pack is dead. Having an up-to-date weapon makes it easier for you to maintain as much hate on enemies as possible, so always make sure your weapon is as close to your current level as you can possibly have it. Same for your shield. For accessories, you don't start getting actual tank accessories until level 28-29, but you will want accessories stat'd towards VIT, always.

I hope this helps you!

Some resources that may help for general tanking tips. These helped out a lot when I first started. Some of it seems complicated at first glance but it'll soon become second nature to you.
http://i.imgur.com/smNx1ZX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PEnLMF9.jpg
This is a little old but may be useful.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ing_resources/

Your gear will likely be your biggest hindrance in tanking low levels. You may be adequately geared for the dungeon but your gear will be outclassed by a level 60 level synced; if your gear isn't the best you can get for your level then you'll be at a slightly bigger disadvantage.

Assuming all your gear is at level then you have 3 options to choose from: NQ, HQ and dungeon drops. NQ will offer you the worst stats of the 3, it may be serviceable but its not going to help you much. Dungeon drops will give you pretty good gear and will help a lot but HQ will generally give you better stats and the option for melds. Again, assuming its all same level gear. There's going to be two main differences between your gear and a synced level 60. The first is that you won't likely have good gear in all your accessory slots (some of it isn't available) where as a level 60 will have them all. The second is low level gear often doesn't have a lot of secondary stats on them where level 60 gear does. While you won't necessarily be hindered by not having them, it does give level 60s a slight dps advantage over you.

Its those small differences in gearing that allow level synced players to get away with some of the things you're struggling with. The differencs are slight, and arguably minor but they can be felt. Don't worry, those differences fade as you get better geared and get access to your higher level enmity skills. Lv 50 tanking is much easier than Lv 50 tanking because of it; and level 60 tanking is just awesome.

Also, while every game does have its share of assclowns and people that will give you a hard time of things, if you say you're new and learning still most people are very forgiving of tanking mistakes. Some people are also willing to give advice if you ask for it too.

And, of course, don't be afraid to ask questions here. Most of us like helping new players improve.

Thanks for all the help. I'll ask again if necessary ^_^

I'd wish to use this topic to ask about enmity, too.

Is there any statistic for it? Does it have any default time or duration? Does it apply the same amount of time or does it just add more enmity time to the target?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by mtPrimo

I'd wish to use this topic to ask about enmity, too.

Is there any statistic for it? Does it have any default time or duration? Does it apply the same amount of time or does it just add more enmity time to the target?

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It's based on your damage (or in the case of Flash, how much damage it would theoretically do if it had a potency of 600 per mob) with bonus multipliers on the two abilities in your enmity combo and any other ability that specifically says "Additional effect: Increased enmity".

For specific multipliers, see this.

So, say you have (a) a PLD and (b) a BLM with 77% of the PLD's attack power (this funny number is because the BLM gets a +30% damage bonus trait). Anyway, what we're considering is two people who do the same damage when their attacks have the same listed potency.

If the PLD does Circle of Scorn (100 potency) it will do the same damage as the BLM's Freeze (100 potency), and they would normally generate the same amount of enmity. However, Circle of Scorn has a x3 enmity multiplier, so Circle of Scorn will generate three times as much enmity as Freeze, even though they did the same damage. Further, if the PLD was in Shield Oath, he gets another x2.7 multiplier from being in tank stance, so a Shield Oath -boosted Circle of Scorn will generate hate as if it were 810 potency (100 base potency x 3 ability multiplier x 2.7 Oath multiplier).

DDs and healers have abilities (to reduce their enmity generation) or (to drop a big portion of their accumulated enmity) depending on the job.


Earlier, I recommended not using FastBlade+SavageBlade as an enmity combo because Flash+Flash generates more enmity, even on a single target. This is why. FastBlade(150)+SavageBlade(200x3.5=700) is only 850 potency, while Flash(600)+Flash(600) is 1200 potency. Once you learn Rage of Halone, the complete hate combo generates more enmity against a single target than spamming Flash: FastBlade(150)+SavageBlade(200x3.5=700)+RageOfHalone(260x5=1300) is a total of 2150, while Flash(600)+Flash(600)+Flash(600) is only 1800.

Fight or Flight - Shield Lob - Spirits Within - Circle of Scorn - 2x Flash
Strength Reduction Rotation
Fracture
Bleed/Mana Recovery Rotation
Fracture
Strength Reduction Rotation

Using Circle of Scorn and Spirits within when they pop also if your party members are close hit the Divine Shield and throw yourself a Clemency, buff the rest and take healing aggro from the mobs to boot!

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Originally Posted by GDFletcher

Using Circle of Scorn

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One of the first lessons in any school writing class is know your audience. Level 60 tanking advice isn't incredibly useful to a level <30 Gladiator.

Just like PotD throwing all the skills at players that probably won't understand what most of them do, information dumps aren't easy to process, especially before you're ever prepared for it.

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Originally Posted by mtPrimo

I'd wish to use this topic to ask about enmity, too.

Is there any statistic for it? Does it have any default time or duration? Does it apply the same amount of time or does it just add more enmity time to the target?

Thanks

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As far as I know there is no decay or timer on enmity. You do an action, it applies X enmity and you will always maintain X enmity until the mob dies or you die. The enmity bars on mobs that you see increasing and decreasing aren't actually losing any enmity, they're changing scale based on who has the most enmity with that mob (ideally the tank). IE if a DPS generates 100 enmity on a mob and has a full enmity bar, then a tank jumps in and generates 200 enmity, the tank will have a full bar and the DPS will have half a bar. Now when you're in a party you're going to have skills going off all the time which changes how much enmity a person has, this creates an illusion where the bars seem like they're jumping up and down or increasing and decreasing. All they're really doing is increasing at different rates to each other.

This is also why the first 4-5 gcds of combat will see enmity bars jumping all over the place because the total enmity of each person is relatively similar and because each skill generates an amount of enmity that is a larger percentage of their total enmity. If you have 200 enmity and do a skill that adds 200 enmity then you've just doubled it! Whereas later in a fight you might have accumulated 2000 enmity in which case your skill that adds 200 enmity is only a 10% increase so the increase looks less. It sounds complicated but if you watch the enmity bars in dungeons you'll start to see what I'm talking about.

Really all it comes down to is if you see the enmity bar of a party member increasing more than yours, then they're generating more enmity than you.

there isn't any decay. you can see the fluctuations growing less wild the longer the fight goes on. just making up numbers to make the point, but it starts out kinda like this: tank has 10 enmity, blm nukes and get 18 enmity, tank gets 20 enmity. those are wild fluctuations on the pull. but as the fight goes on: tank has 100 enmity, blm has to 60 enmity, blm nukes and gets 78 enmity, and there's no worry about blm ripping threat. this is the reason for provoke. after a while, it's the only way to close the gap

Enmity is not toggled state, and as such, doesn't have timeout. If you hit a mob, and no one else does anything else, the mob sees only you. Why it looks like you loose enmity over time is that everyone else in the party increase their own portion by just damaging the mob, and tank needs to keep ahead of them.

Just a quick bump...

Marking a kill order isn't really done in regular dungeons (from my experience), but it can be a good tool for newbie tanks that don't yet have a tanking stance and may not have the very best gear. If the damage dealers are not on the same page as you (or each other) and targeting different enemies in a trash pack, the mobs die more slowly and it's more difficult to hold hate on the entire group. Simply marking one mob in the pack that you want killed first can be enough to get the DDs to focus on a single target, and by the time it dies you should have enough of a lead on enmity to hold the other two or three mobs in the pack.

As you progress and gain more abilities, the trash in normal dungeons is much easier to tank, but when a BLM in Sastasha rips a mob away from you before you've had a chance to even Flash it, it sure slows things down and makes for a frustrating run.

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Originally Posted by Kennar

Marking a kill order isn't really done in regular dungeons (from my experience), but it can be a good tool for newbie tanks that don't yet have a tanking stance and may not have the very best gear. If the damage dealers are not on the same page as you (or each other) and targeting different enemies in a trash pack, the mobs die more slowly and it's more difficult to hold hate on the entire group. Simply marking one mob in the pack that you want killed first can be enough to get the DDs to focus on a single target, and by the time it dies you should have enough of a lead on enmity to hold the other two or three mobs in the pack.

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Marking a kill order is never a good idea.

Marking singularly high priority targets, such as bees, transformers, and summoners is a good thing because the marks are mechanically important.

Marking mechanically unimportant targets because you're not AoEing liberally trivializes the mark system in later encounters that actually have mechanically important marks, and results in the current group dying more slowly because DoT and AoE damage isn't being maximized. DDs that are not AoEing should be DoTing everything and then switching to the target that has the most health, as health bars fluctuate.

If the tank is geared and the tank is AoEing enough, there is nothing the DDs can do to pull things off him. DDs should take advantage of this and DoT all the things and target the highest health mobs.

Low level tanking is near impossible I suggest u get conjurer to 15 and become paladin the paladin soul stone seems to add a lot of emity and makes tanking easyier

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Marking a kill order is never a good idea.

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It's pretty rare for me to disagree with anything Rongway posts, but I'm going to here. Kennar's post specified "for newbie tanks that don't yet have a tanking stance and may not have the very best gear". This means low level dungeons where there isn't much AoE available. When DPS is primarily single target, it really does go a lot faster and smoother if they focus on the same single target and marking one is is a good way to promote that.

I will agree that in high level dungeons with an experienced and well-geared tank, the usefulness of marking a kill order pretty much disappears (apart from specific high priority targets, as mentioned), but that's a far stretch from discouraging it everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

... and then switching to the target that has the most health, as health bars fluctuate

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That should be "the target that has the least health" if you want to quickly cut down on the number of mobs hitting the tank. The less work it is for the healer to keep up with incoming damage, the more chances they'll have to switch into damage dealing themselves. (Not to mention that it can be essential with a new or under-geared healer who otherwise may not always be able to keep up with incoming damage.)

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Originally Posted by ClaireRefield

Low level tanking is near impossible I suggest u get conjurer to 15 and become paladin the paladin soul stone seems to add a lot of emity and makes tanking easyier

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Well, i've found out that GLD tanking early game can't even be compared to MRD (in my point of view). Overpower just feels more safe than Flash.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

When DPS is primarily single target, it really does go a lot faster and smoother if they focus on the same single target and marking one is is a good way to promote that.

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While I mostly agree, also worth considering that probably too often, you're just as likely to get overgeared overeager DPS that will intentionally ignore marks just because "lulz who cares it's trash."

In my early days, I enjoyed occasional marking, or at least focusing down, of vaguely problematic mobs. Often things that had some form of AoE, because, why wouldn't we want that dead so we can stop dodging out of the attack? But, most would rather just burn everything.

Niwashi knows what I mean. To reiterate, I'm not advocating marking everything, all the time. Through the first four dungeons, though, a GLA is not going to have a lot of tools to work with, and the Duty Finder can make for some interesting combinations of overgeared and inexperienced damage dealers. Marking one target and getting the DDs to focus on it for a few seconds will make it easier for the tank to get a good lead on enmity on the whole pack, then the rest of the party can go ham. In addition to making things more difficult for melee DDs, it does little for a new tank's confidence when mobs are dancing around all over the place.

This is all situational, as well. Every party is different, and sometimes things just fall into place and the run is smooth as silk without a lot of unnecessary direction.