Yoshi P's Paladin Love

In a recent interview?? Yoshi P said they will be showing Paladin much needed love. And all hardcore players to decently well-informed tank players know the glaring (and no so glaring) issue pld has in comparison to its counterparts. Already we know Yoshi P said Pld will be getting more magic defensive cd love, and I believe he said an AOE, so we at least have that to long forward to. In the benchmark we got a sneak-peak at a new ability that appeared to be “that” AOE (with cast time…)



Later this month they are supposed to be going over the battle system changes, but you have to wonder will they focus in on each job?? Or will they be going over just the overall system changes (timers, indications, cds, merged cross-class abilities, and deleted skills). Maybe SE will feel generous and give us it all?? Lul (one can dream).



But more specifically to Paladin I’d like us to list the changes we’d look forward to then on release compare what we get with what we hope for and possible keep this as a tab of what may still need to be addressed moving further into Storm’s blood.



ISSUE:

Clemency

· cost a lot of MP (limiting to 2-3 uses at a time requiring SEVERAL, SEVERAL riot blades [MP] to re-use);
· it also can be INTERRUPTED……..;
· it will break combo rotations;
· it’s attack potency based YET it’s completely unaffected by Fight or Flight (the way Berserk buffs Equilibrium, and dps buff Second Wind) note: it is affected by Convalescence
HOPEFUL FIXES:

Clemency

· Reduce MP cost or improve MP recover , or a combination of reduced MP cost and increased MP.
· Make the spell an instant cast or give it a built-in Surecast .
· PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it so it does not break combo…. Already pld is the only tank that’s required to lose a gcd to do a (semi-useless) defensive skill; please don’t make us lose our combo on top of that.
· This suggested fix is debatable….but I actually think Clemency is too weak…given that we have to lose a gcd to use it and we currently have only 2-3 uses available at a time I’d like to see it being worth not using a regular gcd; currently with best gear is worth the HP of one auto attack from savage bosses…. Also I understand there is a correlation between mp cost/usage, aka overall effectiveness of this skill [IMO paladin should be at least as self-sustaining as a war if not more so using white “holy” magic].


but what else are you guys hoping to see with PLD??

Magic-cover would be great.

I actually think that drk skill we see in benchmark is a magic cover....i doubt they'll cross class :(

Also that drk skill look like it only absorbed one attack??? Idk....

Regular cover is a pretty niche ability in raid and in dungs I wouldn't mind a magic version. Or make it so all covered (physical) dmg is 100% blocked.

I don't bother speculating. I wait and see, then try it for myself. I'm not a raider (arrived too late for that as a relatively new player), so I'm not too phased by how PLD is in its current state. They've said they'll be bringing changes - that's good enough for me.

Berserk actually buffs attack power directly while FoF only increases physical damage dealt and not the attack power. That's why clemency is not affected by FoF and WAR was designed to be a self sustain tank since 2.0 with inner beast originally being used a self heal after tank busters but that didn't work out too well. I would much rather see DRK get the better self sustain and PLD get better self and party mitigation. What I would like to see from PLD is a battle raise. Either 0 mp cost with a long recast, 60-120 secs or high mp cost with gcd. Sheltron also needs to give tp in addition to mp.

What I want to see is simple: take most of the Paladin's "Anti Physical" kit and make it apply to magic damage.

Right now, in a magic heavy (or exclusive) fight (such as Cheribert in the Vault), the following abilities become near useless:

• Shield Swipe
• Bulwark
• Cover
• Sheltron

Foresight becomes useless as a cross-class, while Rage of Halone's damage reduction no longer applies either in addition to the above. Cover is especially harmed by it's physical only restriction, as most unavoidable (or even avoidable) AOEs are magic damage.

With some of the Gladiator abilities (such as Provoke and likely Rampart/Convalescence/Awareness) becoming Role-based skills, and the likelihood of their more situational abilities being changed or removed (Tempered Will), we'll have a lot of room to (hypothetically) expand the Paladin's identity.

I'd love to see it get some more damage increasing abilities for it's allies. I like the idea of the Dark Knight and Warrior focusing more on personal damage, while the Paladin increases the damage of its allies heavily. Something like a "Foe's Requiem" that increases allies' damage to enemies near them would be neat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

Magic-cover would be great.

---

What, to make Cover relevant?
We have DRK for that...

Given SE's history of "fixes", the so-called love will be done half assed, and people will rejoice because it will still be better than what they had before.

I would do the following, to clemency and all Paladin 'spells'.

1) Make them not spells. This means they would scale off skill speed. Only paladins right now weirdly have role based actions that scale off different stats, one of which you cant get.

This would solve the issue of being interruptable, since it would behave like flash. Keep the mana the same (it costs a lot, I know, but I think this can be offset with higher mp gain from riot blade) and if treated like flash would cause it to be combo friendly.

As for other abilities.

2) Shield Swipe should have its potency lowered, TP set to 0, made OGcD, given a 6 second CD.
3) The DoT From Circle of Scorn should stack up to three times. In addition, blocks should have a chance to reset CoS and set its casting cost to 0.
4) Moving between stances should be an OGCD that does not break combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

I would do the following, to clemency and all Paladin 'spells'.

1) Make them not spells. This means they would scale off skill speed. Only paladins right now weirdly have role based actions that scale off different stats, one of which you cant get.

---

Is there any benefit at all to having Spell and Skill Speeds separate is what I wonder...
I could imagine it having niche balancing uses in an open customization MMO that might slightly outweigh its frustrations so long as the stat's bonuses scaled differently based on your rate of use or whatnot (e.g. as a consumed and passively regenerated acceleration resource based on the stat), but in one like XIV it just needlessly punishes our hybrids like Bard, DRK, and PLD.

It would be nice to hear what they plan to do with magic. What little I can remember of the ARR release explanations felt like there were attacks they simply did not want us to be able to mitigate, as to make healers more crucial, but magic-irrelevant CDs are the rarity, not the standard. Nonetheless, their effects can still make or break tank balance in a given fight...

...I'd love to be able to see PLD charge up its shield or whatnot for a nuke (and cost-reduced) Shield Bash or improved Shield Swipe as a result of magic damage taken, or absorbed through Shield Oath, etc. Shield Swipe (Shield Springy-Upward-Punch-Slap-Thing) has never made complete sense to me as a counter as compared to prepped ability. (A true block, rather than a parry, with the shield certainly wouldn't set you up for such an agile counter, after all.) Without a reset mechanic or immediate availability as in Low Blow's it loses out on both MT group-fight DPS growth and an otherwise far more valuable level of unique utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

I would do the following, to clemency and all Paladin 'spells'.

1) Make them not spells. This means they would scale off skill speed. Only paladins right now weirdly have role based actions that scale off different stats, one of which you cant get.

This would solve the issue of being interruptable, since it would behave like flash. Keep the mana the same (it costs a lot, I know, but I think this can be offset with higher mp gain from riot blade) and if treated like flash would cause it to be combo friendly.

---

Actually DRK suffers also from the Spell Speed problem. Unmend, Unleash and Abyssal Drain all scale from Spell Speed, a stat you can't get as a tank. They are not casts, but still magic attacks. Since DRK can - and should - spam his aoe attacks in big pulls, and Skill Speed doesn't affect his aoe damage at all, it's maybe even worse for DRK than PLD ^^ or maybe not, at least DRK has aoe damage :x

And didn't had PLD an 100% block cooldown? I heared somewhere that when you are blocking, you can't get interrupted. So maybe it was intended to use that cd when you are casting a spell? However, removing the cast bars for PLD sounds like a good idea in general.

Give. Paladin. A. Gun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

And didn't had PLD an 100% block cooldown? I heard somewhere that when you are blocking, you can't get interrupted. So maybe it was intended to use that cd when you are casting a spell? However, removing the cast bars for PLD sounds like a good idea in general.

---

Opposite. You can't block, dodge, or parry while doing anything that can be interrupted.
(Enemies can still miss, though, iirc, which now procs as a dodge, but there's no advantage from your actual Evasion stat at that time, only the enemy's lacking accuracy?)

Thus you can cast until Thordan's auto-attack goes off to ensure your Shelltron will auto-block the immediate following tank-buster instead.

staying in touch with the lore it would make sense that PLD of the three tanks should get more party utilities. The issue with current utilities is they become marginal as ilv increase. In contrasts AST's utility scales with ilv (in terms of dps directly). PLD needs skills that either directly affect party dps (wouldn't mesh with PLD lore..) or indirectly affect dps (thru sustainment, which is more in line with PLD lore). For example of indirect increase in dps: high ilv and skilled sch's can spend large portion of major fights in cleric stance b/c SCH is the best sustainment healer currently in game; all their skills scales with ilv; current meta DEMANDS a sch for top party composition. I would like PLD to offer something similar where of the 3 tanks its the weakest dps but thru party sustainment it can have a party dps increase comparable to Drk/WAR (also I wish they balance the tanks to where pld/drk become viable even if it has to offer something different..that's another topic).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

2) Shield Swipe should have its potency lowered, TP set to 0, made OGcD, given a 6 second CD.
3) The DoT From Circle of Scorn should stack up to three times. In addition, blocks should have a chance to reset CoS and set its casting cost to 0.
4) Moving between stances should be an OGCD that does not break combos.

---

I like point number 4! Please SE take both drk and Pld tank stances of gcd and make it a cd like War's. I did not understand point number 2 or 3?? Shield swipe already cost 0 tp, is an ogcd....and gives a 6 sec debuff on mob (its a useless debuff.........since it works on zero bosses [dung or raid] and even on trash mobs it only effects 1 of the 6 to 8 mobs smashing into u........... SE FIX THAT....COMPLETELY USELESSSSS).

A potential fix to pacification off of shield swipe is: most bosses have a auto attacks, mini busters, and then the real tankbuster. make the pacification affect the mini buster, that would make pacification a VERY strong skill!! (maybe too strong...)

but back to point 3; what does it mean to have the DOT stack up to 3 times???

Removing the cast timer on PLD skill sound like a good functional idea for optimizing raid and what not; but PLD (being true to lore) is a mage tank... It wouldn't feel right if everything was instant like flash. Which isnt the case for DRK. These Dark magic skills--unmend, unleash, abyssal drain, dark passanger, salted earth----feel like they should all be instant; none of these skills given what they accomplish and their animation "feels" as if they should have cast time. Meanwhile Clemency being instant...feels weird?? Flash doesn't feel weird being fast b/c of its function (instantly blind the enemy and get their hate attention, u want that to be instant).

I still stand by the school of thought that casted abilities that require you to stop attacking, no matter how short the cast time, should not. be. given. to. melee. jobs. (this includes tanks)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I still stand by the school of thought that casted abilities that require you to stop attacking, no matter how short the cast time, should not. be. given. to. melee. jobs. (this includes tanks)

---

rdm has melee attacks... and it's a caster; so if a caster can get melee, why can't a melee get caster abilities?? esp a melee who's lore demands it uses magic (i dare say casting magic).

But to your point PLD is the only tank shafted in this manner having a casting non-dps skill. Like i said in the OP SE needs to return us some bonus/benefit for losing out on a GCD (an auto attack worth of cure isn't really worth losing a gcd).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

rdm has melee attacks... and it's a caster; so if a caster can get melee, why can't a melee get caster abilities?? esp a melee who's lore demands it uses magic (i dare say casting magic).

But to your point PLD is the only tank shafted in this manner having a casting non-dps skill. Like i said in the OP SE needs to return us some bonus/benefit for losing out on a GCD (an auto attack worth of cure isn't really worth losing a gcd).

---

I have to disagree with that. PLD's self-healing capabilities both in burst and over time are strong compared to the other two.

The issue, as far as I can see, is much like that of DRK's highest potential mitigation over time CD, DA-DD; it's not entirely reliable, and it has anti-synergy with other parts of the toolkit.

I'd be okay with it not interrupting combos though; perhaps the mana cost and lost of GCD time ought to be enough to make it an "emergency" ability already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snipp

---

WARNING LOTS OF READING

NOt to be offensive, but you're wrong. SELF-SUSTAINING is a matter of fact; you either can do it or u can't. I'll do a lil bit of heavy lifting to demonstrate why pld is tied for last at self sustaining itself, but I have an easy test for you if you have access to each lvl 60 tank. Go into diadem and solo a tier one mob (any tier 1 mob not in fate). Even with max gear you will be only be able to self sustain yourself with only one tank....WAR and WAR alone.

Now here is how PLD stacks up...

PLD self's CD

HALLOWED GROUND- 7min CD, 10 sec active, complete immunity; this is PLD's bread and butter when it comes to negation during it's up-time, yes it's the best in game... but compare to it's effectiveness (up-time/recast) and it becomes dead last in what it's achieving with it's only perk being it doesnt need a subsequent heal/benediction to be a complete skill the way Holmgang and Living Dead do. In direct comparison to WAR though, War doesn't need 100% HP after any use of HG. WAR just need "enough" HP to not die from whatever mech is next (whether it be an auto attack an AOE or combination) so the complete immunity of a PLD's HG while being the best form of immunity in game, functionally WAR's HG is more proficient in its effective usage. We'll still make PLD win over the two other tanks in this self sustaining aspect. Let's move on.

SHELTRON- 10 sec buff that guarantee ONE block every 30s, and a regen MP of 707 mp- so basically 1 blocked attack at 20% mitigation every 30 sec... can we just agree this one doesn't do much in SELF-sustaining? The MP regen is small (707mp/30SECONDS ) and 20% mitigation on ONE physical attack every 30 sec isn't by itself gonna do much.

CONVALESCENCE - 20 sec buff of 30% additional healing received on a 2min cd. Again great skill! by it self does nothing for self sustaining but we'll talk more about it come Clemency.

CLEMENCY- now I already started the OP with it's issues but lets ignore all the issues and just consider it's effectiveness. 1200 potency cure, cost 2121 mp, cast time of 2 seconds. Keep in mind your MP pool at lvl 60 is 5188. So you can get 2 cast of clemency then you need to regen mp. let's bring sheltron back in this conversation. Sheltron recovers 707 mp every 30 seconds and riot blade recovers 442 mp every 24 secs (unless you a scrub spamming riot blade.... ppl trust me these kinds of tanks exist); while in combat you recover ~2% mp/tick (103 mp/3 sec). Let's just assume you have sheltron + riot blade (a once every 24 sec skill) all lined up RIGHT after using clemency at least once, after one battle mp regen tick, you'd get enough mp regen to cast one more Clemency before you were completely mp dry. And this is assuming you don't flash or Stoneskin. so for the sake of getting an complete effectiveness of this skill, we'll say 3 uses then we regen from scratch until we can do 3 more.

This is you're complete MP regen ability: 707mp/30s + 103mp/3s + 442mp/24s = 228mp/tick (note: 3s= a tick) it would take 228mp/tick, 28 ticks to get at least 6363 mp (3 clemencies ); 28 ticks is 84 secs. Now the recast of a triple Clemency isn't just 84 sec but you have to add the cast time of each as well (and keep in mind we cheated to even use 3 in the first place....) so the total recast time is 6sec+ 84 sec to use 3 Clemencies. That's an effective potency 1200 healing potency/30 sec!! Which sounds decent!?? Now also consider convalescence buffs that potency by another 30% every 2min which is an effective 5% healing buff over time so that pushing clemency to 1260 potency/30 sec! That sound really cool... [it's decent ish...] DRK has no direct comparison to Clemency. Souleater is too weak...you'd have to use all 3 dark arts to get 1200 potency over at least 3 combos. But WAR has Equilibrium which at least half the potency of *cheating* clemency potency/30 sec. YET we'll give the Prize to PLD here as well over the 2 others in this single ability!

RAMPART-20 sec of 20% mitigation over a 90 sec cd. Decent skill matched by Shadowskin from DRK and Raw Intuition** by WAR.....next

RAGE OF HALONE - 10% strength down for 20 sec. it can be kept up indefinitely. It's only for physically attacking mobs. WE assume that STR directly impact attack power the ways it does for MNK and DRG... if that assumption is WRONG??? then this skill is less effective than the other tank's reduction Weaponskills. Delirium is the magic version of Halone but useless if u have a mnk*. Meanwhile Storm's Path is still king of them all: 10% flat reduction [magic & physical] and a 125 potency heal (self-sustaining aspect)

SENTINEL- 40% mitigation for 10 sec over 3min. in terms of instant mitigation, it's the best of the 3 tanks!!! But in terms of effectiveness it's a DISTANCE second place behind WAR. EFFECTIVENESS: Vengence* > > sentinel > Shadow Wall.

BULWARK - 60% chance of block for 15 sec over 3min cd. Let's calculate this one a lil differently in favor of PLD. This skill effectiveness is dependent on how fast or slow the mobs attack and activation timing! But let's be nice. Assume a mob hits every 3 sec then the effectiveness of this ability is 20% mitigation for 9 sec (15sec * 60% = 9 sec) over 3min recast . Effectively that's 60% mitigation/min; or to keep it in terms of 20% mitigation, that 20% mitigation for 3 sec every 60 sec. Compare that to DRK's dark dance without Dark Arts and Bulwark will win!! HOWEVER, Add Dark Arts NOT EVEN CONSIDERING EVASION (and yesss evasion works in raid!!! not reliable but it works!) and you effectively get 20% mitigation for 6 sec over 60 sec (twice that of Bulwark not even considering evasion). Now to introduce the KANG*....INNER BEAST.....simply placing the name up here should make PLD and DRK go #$*@ing sit down..... but let's get into it a lil bit. If you're not using fracture it takes 8 GCDs to get 5 stacks of wrath and since you have to actually execute the attack that a total of 9 GCDs per INNER BEAST (with fracture every 30 sec it would take 10 gcds to execute IB*). so assume 2.5 sec per gcd * 9 gcds = 22.5 total seconds. Let's make it an effectiveness over 60 sec. That's like 20% mitigation for 16 sec!!! over 60 sec recast (more than twice that of dark dance with dark art and more than 5 times..that of bulwark). Now keep in mind I didn't discuss that you get free wrath from berserk, vengeance, & raw intuition...lulz. Also I didn't factor in the self sustaining aspect of a 300 potency cure that scales with dps and I didn't mention Infuriate.... WAR wins too easily in these 3 skill comparion with PLD in last place
(INNER BEAST >>> dark art + Dark Dance > Bulwark).

FLASH - blinds* for 12s; Blind unlike evasion ONLY works on dung TRASH mobs....so regardless of its effectiveness it utility as mitigation is lulz, everything considered. However it only has one direct comparison and that's Dark Passenger with Drk Art. But!!! if you want to cheat only WAR can cross class Featherfoot at 12% evasion for 15 sec over 90 sec recast and YES evasion (though unreliable) does work in all content. With the cheat for WAR, that puts WAR> PLD> DRK in terms of effective mitigation for these skills. (note: without knowing exactly how evasion and blind reduces the chances of mobs hitting you its impossible to compare blind and evasion)

we'll skip Bloodbath & Foresight b/c those 2 are WAR native skills and WAR makes the best use of them both-- more effective up time on both and being the highest dps of the 3 tank classes makes best use of Bloodbath (and Bloodbath goes well with vengeance).

Moral of the story............we just went thru allll that just to show CD for CD PLD is barely second in CD effectiveness LET alone self sustaining ability (the ACTUAL subject). PLD is tied for last AND We didn't even get to WArrior's thrill of BAttle.. instant 20% of max HP every 2min, scales with defiance.... And WAR is the only tank that can access Second wind 650 potency cure every 2min....

WARRIOR is the clear king of self sustainment. It's not even close (I for one think WAR is broken....a broken I love....but both other tanks need more loving ESP PALADIN!!!)

NOTE: Sheltron makes a better comparison to Inner Beast and Dark Dance than Bulwark; Sheltron is still LAST among the 3 skills (on average if you include the effect of evasion)

War OP has been known since 3.0 was dropped and was first taken to 60. Watching a war solo the first boss of gubal NM, was a sight to see at ilvl 145.

I really don't belive in homogenized tanks. Just like dps classes have their place in certain raids, take should be the same way.

If we are going to make them basically the same, then why even have 3 of them? Just keep War and drop the other 2 dead weights.

PLD doesn't need more self sustaining, it needs more aoe dps. End of story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I really don't belive in homogenized tanks. Just like dps classes have their place in certain raids, take should be the same way.

If we are going to make them basically the same, then why even have 3 of them? Just keep War and drop the other 2 dead weights.

PLD doesn't need more self sustaining, it needs more aoe dps. End of story.

---

End of your story. It's hard to take you seriously when you oversimplify the issue to "it just needs aoe..." . Balancing the "tanking" aspect of the 3 tank options doesn't necessarily mean homogenization.....................................

I was gonna write a long response explaining how you can make each tank NICHE yet keep them balance in what utility/style they bring to party composition..but I'm afraid you'll just "end of story" again on some other oversimplification...gg

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...0170504_04.jpg
This image is from the recent official blogpost.

As you can see, the PLD is using what appears to be off global cooldown skill (shown by the blue circular effect).
The animation doesn't match any of the current oGCDs, so it might be a new skill.
BUT if you look closely the pose is really similar to the current PLD's Clemency casting animation, both Oath's usage animation, and the new notHoly spell they might be getting as shown in the benchmark.
What could this mean?
Is Clemency being turned in to oGCD? Or both of the Oaths? Or something else entirely?
You be the judge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

But there is no way to know if its a cast or an instant since this is a snapshot image...

---

You can actually. Instant cast GCD skill will either have yellow circular effect or nothing, trying using any weapon skills, flash, etc. Now try using any defensive oGCDs (Rampart, Bulwark, Sentinel etc.). They will show blue circular effect similar to this image. There are some exception to this (the only one I know of is DRK's Unmend, but most of the abilities follow this rule). Also it's not a cast skill either. Both Clemency and the new skill have distinct casting effect, same as any other spells that require casting in this game, as shown here.
http://i.imgur.com/snSmTPK.pnghttp://

I wouldn't jump the gun just yet on upcoming changes to Paladin till we actually get the details.

This that mind #$%@ that nerd do!!! Now I won't be able to sleep until i have some ideas what this skill can be? But there is no way to know if its a cast or an instant since this is a snapshot image... but it does look like clemency/oath's... I'm leaning that its a casting spell given our current 3 similar animation; unless it's yet ANOTHER STANCE?????? nahhhh

but it could be a stance????? why would he be casting something prior to entering the arena?? Wait it can still be a buff...hmmmmmm

This is why I'm hoping the DRK skill shown in the BM is not a casted ability, due to that same circular effect, and the fact that he isn't holding a pose/casting animation for several seconds but rather executes it in a fluid motion. Tanks shouldn't have casted spells, get rid of em SE. ><

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

rdm has melee attacks... and it's a caster; so if a caster can get melee, why can't a melee get caster abilities?? esp a melee who's lore demands it uses magic (i dare say casting magic).

But to your point PLD is the only tank shafted in this manner having a casting non-dps skill. Like i said in the OP SE needs to return us some bonus/benefit for losing out on a GCD (an auto attack worth of cure isn't really worth losing a gcd).

---

Exactly, PLD is "shafted". It shouldn't be, and neither should any tank.

Instacasts for casters are great, casts for non-casters are hot garbage.

Its not about "getting" casted abilities like RDM "gets" a melee ability since that melee ability could work like any other insta-cast ability casters have (ruin 2, scathe, fire/thunder procs, bio, miasma 2, etc.) and is of no detriment to their DPS/job performance like a casted ability is for a tank (and actually the melee ability RDM has that we keep seeing looks like a ranged-gap-closer-but-not-really ability a la DRG's Jump which is a whole other can of worms). No DPS job that has casted abilites has casted abilities that don't do damage with the barely considerable exception of BLM/SMN Physick.

They could make PLD's cover do both physical and magical covering, and not be possible to break by the target moving out of range. The tether graphic can just appear for a moment when it's cast to show who is being linked, but then the actual effect just works for the whole duration regardless of range.

Ok so this is my own theory mind you, sort of my take mixed with my wishlist for PLD to become the ultimate utility and support tank.

We know at least Rampart is being merged with the similar DRK and WAR skills into a Role skill so that's 1. Also we can expect the GLD-3 to be moved to the role column (Awareness, Convalescence, and Provoke), so that's 3 more.

So its likely we will have 4 new skills at least as the Devs have said we will have the same number of skills we have now.

New Skills

1. Barrier - Basically I suspect the skill we see ever so swiftly before the holy-like flash, the floating crystal cross we see, my hope it is a self or single target Protect buff. Most likely Protect will be moved to the Healer Role skills so I think its possible. And while true in group situations the healers have it covered, when alone or just by the flavor of PLD being all about defense, I would love to see this be a thing.

2. Tacktics - PLDs have a leader flavor to them so I thought it would be fun to have a Party Buff oGCD skill. It would be greyed out if not in an Oath and I would think the effect could change depending on the stance. Sword Oath, lower's party member's aggro generation, like a party-wide Quelling Strikes, Shield Oath, gives a burst of MP and TP to the PLD and places a 15 second MP/TP regen on the party.

3. Shield Rush - I <3 gap-closers, and if WAR is getting one too its silly not to let the PLD rush into battle too.

4. Banish - I hope what we saw was a mini-Holy because as a Holy Knight that's just cool.

Honorable Mentions

Flash - Add Damage Please!

Clemency - Maybe a Esuna-like cast time? That or lower the cost.

Tempered Will - Make it like the PVE Cleanse, long cooldown but an instant removal of all debuffs.

Sword Oath - Can we get like a 10% or 15% damage boost in this stance please.... to all the skills not just auto-attack?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

snipp

---

Where is it written that tank's shouldn't have casting abilities??


HOwever... Sticking to the lore of the Paladin job; its a mage knight...it has to have white magic to stay true to being a mage knight; While an instant cure WOULD still suffice the white magic lore requirement it would remove mage aspect of the pld; which as a pld ...it should have a mage quality to its play.

We already agreed current system PUNISHES pld for casting a skill, losing a dps gcd and the cast can be interrupted. However moving forward they can easily make pld having casting magic that does NOT forfeit dmg like we assume that "holy" magic in the BM will do (if it indeed was holy aoe magic). Nevertheless that isn't the only way to take make the best of a situation where pld would lose a attacking gcd to use a utility.... you telling me NOOOOOO FORM OF NON-DPS UTILITY THAT CAN EVER BE IMAGINE can ever outweigh pld losing that one gcd? This is why I can't follow the idea that "no melee should have casting??"

there are a myriad different ways they can make a casting utility that will be worth losing a melee attacking GCD to the benefit of party sustaiment (indirect dps) or Dps directly.

Clemency should function like BRD's Empyreal Arrow. Castable ability weaved in-between combos/weaponskills. Also reduced MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBelmont

Clemency should function like BRD's Empyreal Arrow. Castable ability weaved in-between combos/weaponskills. Also reduced MP.

---

You know what this is the best idea I've heard by far!! This method would stick true to lore, would still need to be fixed for interruptions, but would not sacrificed a gcd!!!

If they made it a longer recast like 14 seconds or even 30 seconds but up the potency this skill alone would significantly up PLD sustainment. Mp/potency would definitely have to be rewarded bc after your first 3 used you'd have more than 30 sec before you could pop another cure.....then there is the issue of the subpar tanks.......i have a feeling they'd have issues on upkeep.....


I like the idea for sure!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

We already agreed current system PUNISHES pld for casting a skill, losing a dps gcd and the cast can be interrupted. However moving forward they can easily make pld having casting magic that does NOT forfeit dmg like we assume that "holy" magic in the BM will do (if it indeed was holy aoe magic). Nevertheless that isn't the only way to take make the best of a situation where pld would lose a attacking gcd to use a utility.... you telling me NOOOOOO FORM OF NON-DPS UTILITY THAT CAN EVER BE IMAGINE can ever outweigh pld losing that one gcd? This is why I can't follow the idea that "no melee should have casting??"

---

Tanks at their core in this game are simplified, weaker melee DPS with tanking responsibilities tacked on. That's just how it is, mechanically. Even if you gave them attacking magic, its laughable to sit there and be getting hit in the face, not being able to even use your shield, while trying to cast something. You speak of "making the best of a situation"... why are we settling for making the best of garbage when we could simply not be using garbage in the first place? It is, in my opinion, the most ridiculous design choice of 3.0. Even if you use it while OTing when you have no danger of being interrupted and have no hits to tank, then you're just trading that benefit for an even bigger hit to raid DPS since, unless there are adds, your primary contribution while not tanking is straight up damage.

I'm not saying that PLD couldn't get some holy magic abilities, but they should be just that, abilities, not casted spells. DRK has Salted Earth, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain... all of these satisfy the magicy-ness of the job's lore without requiring a moronic cast time.

Tanks have plenty of mitigation/tanking-centric utilities that don't require them to sacrifice any and all damage and passive mitigation (block/parry). Rage of Halone, Reprisal, Delirium, Storm's Path, Cover, Divine Veil... all of these abilities are not DPS utilities, but tanking utilities, and some of them even require a *small* sacrifice of DPS (Path, Halone), but what they don't do is make you a sitting duck for the duration of a cast time. Its not written anywhere other than common sense-

If it has a cast and you're on a job other than a healer, it should do damage. If you have a heal or utility ability that doesn't do damage, it should be off the GCD and weave-able between your damaging globals a la Cover/Equilibrium/Divine Veil. I have no problem with PLD being able to heal its team mates or mitigate damage for them, I just think its idiotic that some of us are willing to just accept the idea that it MUST have a cast time. It doesn't. It doesn't and there are more instances of such things not having casts than there are of them having them, in this game.

And before anyone steps in with "healers have DPS spells why can't other roles having healing spells" - see the myriad of threads on why healers can and should DPS. Any given current encounter in this game can *ALWAYS* use more DPS. On the other hand, the combined HPS of two decent healers so far outweighs the maximum potential DPS of ANY boss in this game that even their own heals become redundant, (hence why healers DPS) let alone extraneous healing from other party members. Bosses in this game are so woefully underpowered compared to the abilities of our 3 healing jobs its pitiful, therefore, DPS/Tanks getting to heal is not only dumb, but unnecessary.

The last time outside of this game that I saw somebody that was the primary target of a big monster stop and cast something, his ass fell into the black unknown and made a bunch of hobbits cry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

snip

---

Alternatively, couldn't you just allow players to block (and perhaps parry and dodge) while casting, or make Paladin thus uniquely able? The shield is clearly being held in front during the cast. Already, there are more casts do not break combos than those that do. Clemency could simply lose that factor and voila—you have a spell that still costs uptime output to make up for its otherwise far superior healing over time, but doesn't vary in relative cost according to when in a combo it's needed.

The crucial differences between a cast and an ability, once you take out the nullification of RNG mitigation (block, dodge, & parry), is simply the cost of a GCD and the delay involved. Change either of those and the effect is less one of whether it suits a tank or not as:
- offensive output over time and
- whether the skill ought to feel reactive or preemptive (e.g pre-casting).

Personally, I feel like the cast time suits PLD more than another targeted-heal ability variant of Defiance-Equilibrium, and I would rather trade offensive uptime than utility via potential healing dealt over time or in burst. Tanks being able to heal in the first place, given a standard composition with all members alive, may be unnecessary, but I do at least like the option, if only for how many other options it can then open up. Clemency can be a fairly powerful tool.

My own wishlist:
- Give Spirits Within some benefit for when its offensive potency is reduced, such as either MP or HP restoration. Ideally, this should be effective enough to be worth holding onto the CD for, especially when in Shield Oath.
- Reduce Shelltron's comparative impact on mana restoration over time.
- Allow Paladin to block while casting.
- Increase Paladin's casting resistance, and/or reduce Tempered Will's cooldown append an interruption/silence immunity to its effects (it removes all status effects and then makes you immune to interruption, binds, heavies, slows, paralysis, knock-backs, and draw-ins).

I don't think you're seeing the number of ASSUMPTIONS you're making for each of your points.... I'll try to point them out.

"...that's just how it is..."

No, that is not JUST how it is....that's JUST how the designers decided to make it.....meaning the same designers can decide to change it; THEN THAT would be JUST HOW IT IS....so no point was made there by simply pointing to the current status of the battle system (which we already know will have some changes).

Current rendition of tanks are weaker melee with defensive cds and enmity generation....ok? How is this a POINT why SE can't make a mage/melee tank....except to say "that's just how it is...."??? It's not at all enough to point the current system and say "this is how this works.." you need to demonstrate how this is the ONLY WAY IT CAN EVER WORK OPTIMALLY..........

It being "laughable"--that while casting, you lose the ability to block/parry--doesn't address the potential utility that casted spell can offer over that sacrificed POTENTIAL block/parry. Again you're ASSUMING YOUR POSITION without proving it.

"why are we settling for making the best of garbage.."

You've yet to demonstrate that all possible casted weaponskill/utility that can be imaged would be garbage....

while OT you made the assumption that in all cases possible it would be most optimal to allow the healer to cast that one cure than the PLD... I can think of a a few clerics reasons why in a very specific situation it would be a sustainment gain (indirect dps gain) to have pld lose a gcd so healers could cleric an extra gcd... (but this is being pedantic...OT'ing using clemency is situational, nothing normative about it.)

"moronic cast time" again...another restating of your premise yet without proving it.....

you're "common sense" isn't demonstrated to be common at all.

"If it has a cast and you're on a job other than a healer, it should do damage."

............ where are you getting this "fact of the matter" revelations from????? These assumptions are not at all proven nor common to any RPG common-sense, and definitely not Final Fantasy common-sense......

Also i notice you ignored some the major points i mentioned twice now. So ill mention them again in question and answer form.

Q1: Why should pld have a casting ability?

PLD doesn't HAVE to have a casting ability........... HOWEVER to stay TRUE the FINAL FANTASY LORE OF WHAT A PALADIN IS it would be CONSISTENT to keep paladin a MAGE KNIGHT WHICH USES CASTING WHITE MAGIC.

Q2: Is it impossible for SE to design a PLD casting utility and/or dps skill that would offset the penalty of being UNABLE to block or parry during the channeling of that spell?


There are a number of dps/utilties that can be imagined that would far exceed the lost of not having block/parry for ONE gcd... They could ALSO even allow you to STILL be able to parry/block during the channeling of the spell as well.

The number of options that can work around this supposed "penalty" are numerous.

Here is an example; what if SE gave PLD a battle raise that could not be interrupted and took 2 seconds to cast. Such a utility would be awesome for progression and would much alleviate healer's MP and party sustainment. I think PLD losing one GCD to raise a party member, which preserve healers' mp and lessen the sustainment stress on healers would make a niche ability as ONE example of the COUNTLESS utilities/dps concepts that can be envision.

...............even still......... some other guy had the greatest idea of fitting a cast ability in-between gcd's the way BRD does with Emp. Arrow!! Ingenious workout!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

wall of caps and bolded text.

---

Or, ya know, they could just make it not have a cast. Why are you so in love with the cast time? I promise you, you're in the minority there bud.

You also conveniently did not respond to every instance in my post of my saying I was fine with PLD having magic, or non-dps utility, as long as it doesn't have cast times. PLD isn't a damn caster, neither is DRK, DRK has magic, and as we saw in the bench mark, its getting some sort of extra protective utility that clearly doesn't do damage, and yet all of this is unencumbered by cast times. Get rid of the cast times.

You said I made a lot of assumptions and I suppose that is valid, but what your post is is basically a long diatribe of things that you want SE to make a special exception for on PLD's behalf. Block/parry through casting, casts can't be interrupted, can dps while casting... I prefer to go for the more simple solution which is, again...

Getting rid of the cast times. Honestly with 4.0 coming what I really hope they do is simply make Equilibrium a cross-role ability. If there's one thing a PLD's cast time is good for its the TP regen they so desperately need. /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

snip /s

---

I think we done...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Snip

---

Being able to parry/dodge while casting isn't a bad idea but I question it's overall effectiveness. The reason being that, assuming pld CAN block/parry, during Clemency what's the point? You can mitigate while being hit by trash mobs? If you have a healer it's not really an issue since most of your time will probably be spent building threat and using cooldowns rather than needing your Clemency to keep you alive. Able to cast against bosses? Again, a buff but in most (not all! Just most!)cases the buster's can't actually be blocked/parried due to it being magical damage.

I personally would prefer Clemency to function like Equilibrium but rather than have a CD it will have the same high MP cost, making it a matter of timing and skill in knowing when to use it. Essentially you're in a situation (taking current costs in to account) where you have at least 2 Clemency uses on demand when you need them, I think making it an instant MP cost ability will better empower the players as to when they need to use it and make the ability more interesting as a whole.

Another thought is if you want it to be more useful than it is currently, what about reducing it's MP/cost and potency if you free cast it, but have it combo off of something like Rage of Halone for a free instant cast with increased healing potency compared to hard casting it? Turn it in to an actively used survival skill, maybe even fold divine veil in to it at a reduced effectiveness. Ditch veil and have a combo'd Clemency heal and shield the pld and/or a reduce shield on nearby party members, maybe 3-5% vs the 10%.

In my personal opinion, having cast times on tanks isn't necessarily a good thing unless you do something similar to swtor where one tank had a channeled spell but took reduced damage while it was being cast or the other which had procs that cut the channel time in half. I'm all for redoing Clemency, but I think the first step to it will be getting rid of the cast time entirely and going from there. Turning in to a different sort of reactive ability compared to the others we have now sounds like a good idea in my opinion.

To your wishlist:
-I think the reduced potency on Spirits needs to go and it could definitely use some sort of secondary effect.
-I would actually prefer to see MORE use of Shelltron for MP recovery and have it's cooldown reduced significantly, I've stated several times in the past that I think Pld needs more use of it's MP in general and having a defensive MP restore compared to drk's more offensive mp recovery (outside of blood price) would be an interesting way of going about it.
-Block while casting? See above.
-Tempered will is an interesting ability but I think it's too situational. I don't think it should be removed, but I feel like it's effects can be folded in to Bulwark as an additional effect. It would even make sense given the ability's name!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosaicex

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...0170504_04.jpg
This image is from the recent official blogpost.

As you can see, the PLD is using what appears to be off global cooldown skill (shown by the blue circular effect).
The animation doesn't match any of the current oGCDs, so it might be a new skill.
BUT if you look closely the pose is really similar to the current PLD's Clemency casting animation, both Oath's usage animation, and the new notHoly spell they might be getting as shown in the benchmark.
What could this mean?
Is Clemency being turned in to oGCD? Or both of the Oaths? Or something else entirely?

You be the judge.


You can actually. Instant cast GCD skill will either have yellow circular effect or nothing, trying using any weapon skills, flash, etc. Now try using any defensive oGCDs (Rampart, Bulwark, Sentinel etc.). They will show blue circular effect similar to this image. There are some exception to this (the only one I know of is DRK's Unmend, but most of the abilities follow this rule). Also it's not a cast skill either. Both Clemency and the new skill have distinct casting effect, same as any other spells that require casting in this game, as shown here.
http://i.imgur.com/snSmTPK.pnghttp://

---

YOU ALMOST HAD ME............but guess what...... try casting clemency itself..... it has the exact same animation as this screenshot....so it can still be a clemency like skill. Or even clemency itself... :(

the multi-color swirls that appear around the PLD in the First screenshot also match clemency animation exactly ...

WAIT.... the screenshot is missing the golden aura that appears simultaneously with the multi-color swirls..... either that's a funky timed clemency screenshot or ...another skill/ability

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khalithar

Being able to parry/dodge while casting isn't a bad idea but I question it's overall effectiveness. The reason being that, assuming pld CAN block/parry, during Clemency what's the point? You can mitigate while being hit by trash mobs? If you have a healer it's not really an issue since most of your time will probably be spent building threat and using cooldowns rather than needing your Clemency to keep you alive. Able to cast against bosses? Again, a buff but in most (not all! Just most!)cases the buster's can't actually be blocked/parried due to it being magical damage.

I personally would prefer Clemency to function like Equilibrium but rather than have a CD it will have the same high MP cost, making it a matter of timing and skill in knowing when to use it. Essentially you're in a situation (taking current costs in to account) where you have at least 2 Clemency uses on demand when you need them, I think making it an instant MP cost ability will better empower the players as to when they need to use it and make the ability more interesting as a whole.

Another thought is if you want it to be more useful than it is currently, what about reducing it's MP/cost and potency if you free cast it, but have it combo off of something like Rage of Halone for a free instant cast with increased healing potency compared to hard casting it? Turn it in to an actively used survival skill, maybe even fold divine veil in to it at a reduced effectiveness. Ditch veil and have a combo'd Clemency heal and shield the pld and/or a reduce shield on nearby party members, maybe 3-5% vs the 10%.

In my personal opinion, having cast times on tanks isn't necessarily a good thing unless you do something similar to swtor where one tank had a channeled spell but took reduced damage while it was being cast or the other which had procs that cut the channel time in half. I'm all for redoing Clemency, but I think the first step to it will be getting rid of the cast time entirely and going from there. Turning in to a different sort of reactive ability compared to the others we have now sounds like a good idea in my opinion.

To your wishlist:
-I think the reduced potency on Spirits needs to go and it could definitely use some sort of secondary effect.
-I would actually prefer to see MORE use of Shelltron for MP recovery and have it's cooldown reduced significantly, I've stated several times in the past that I think Pld needs more use of it's MP in general and having a defensive MP restore compared to drk's more offensive mp recovery (outside of blood price) would be an interesting way of going about it.
-Block while casting? See above.
-Tempered will is an interesting ability but I think it's too situational. I don't think it should be removed, but I feel like it's effects can be folded in to Bulwark as an additional effect. It would even make sense given the ability's name!

---

Why bother adding blocks to casting:
Primarily just this: if one were to use Clemency during Shelltron or Bulwark, the cast either delays the effect (also making it unable to prevent an interrupt through the 30% mitigation) or wastes the 2 seconds of the buff's duration. At present, PLD's MT benefits are relatively slim, and kind of wonky at that. Its main benefit from MTing is added Shield Swipe damage and mana restoration from Shelltron, but making use of that gained MP is hampered by reverse synergy from and the ease of interrupt on Clemency while MTing, and the added potency of Shield Swipe is offset by the often lost potency on Spirits Within. Removing this reverse synergy would at least help out part of that wonkiness.

Again, my desire to have Clemency cost offensive uptime is just the opposite coin-side of my wanting it to be as strong as possible as off-healing utility. I prefer it to be a cast, albeit with fewer downsides by whatever means, rather than an ability merely so that it remains an emergency ability of sorts, even if one that's so good that it is frequently used outside of emergencies (even, perhaps, as a way to fill the time by which one's SS-heavy rotation would otherwise clip GB).

The combo-cast is certainly an interesting idea, but one that I would have preferred to see on a more hybrid take on the Red Mage, for instance. I am liking where your thoughts on ditching Veil are going, but I'd like to see further where it's taking you before I feel like I can give you any good feedback.

Wishlist responses:
- I was thinking of SW as a MP/HP generator because then you'd at least have something to make it worthwhile (adding a tactical option) to hold onto, either as way to cast Clemency three times back to back or as a HP-recovery tool after a near death, in order to then barely survive the following AA without support.
- I'd like to see more use of Shelltron (I've said before I'd much rather see it as a level 2 skill like Empyreal Arrow simply called "Guard"), but not as a MP recovery tool. At present, a PLD can't really make good use of their MP while MTing, so why pigeon-hole mana recovery into the MT position?
- See above
- I could see that, especially as a way to cut back on bloat. Somewhat relevant shameless replug:

One thing I'd love to see on tanks is the ability to intercept damage for others more easily. This should especially be the case for Paladin. The way this would work is to have a second, enlarged tentative hitbox around the tank. If an ally within that tentative hitbox would be struck by an aimed ability that would reduce the ally to a lower %HP than the tank would be reduced to, the tank will be struck instead. Paladin's "Cover" would then be a trait, with two bonuses. For starters, it's a larger tentative hitbox than most. Second, it causes any allies affected or intercepted for to benefit from (some percent of) your % mitigation. For instance, a Warrior or Dark Knight could intercept an attack aimed at another, but a Paladin could also cause nearby allies to take reduced damage from AoEs, etc.

I've mentioned before that I'd like most AoEs to be progressively mitigated, meaning that any mitigation dealt against the an AoE as it first hits and, hit by hit, starts to spread would sap from that attack's strength. In that case, a DRK and WAR could still reduce damage to be taken from an AoE by intercepting it, cutting off the most damage from it before it's had the chance to spread. But a PLD would provide that benefit doubly.

As for Bulwark, my favorite idea has been a sort of copy of XIII's Steelguard. Essentially, you cause all damage to instead be taken in tiny, rapid increments, making what would have one-shot you instead potentially kill you over a second, for instance. But, moreover, over the duration of the buff it also increases your defense based on damage taken, so that by the last third of that would-be one-shot attack's damage, your % mitigation is massively increased. It smooths incoming damage immensely, and steadily immunizes you towards it. Each instance of added defense fades quickly, but can continue to ramp up until the end of Bulwark's duration. Because interception is maxed out by the %HP it would leave you at, this allows the Paladin to sort of get in over his head as each calculation hardly phases his % HP until he's already quite low. Alternatively, you could make Bulwark just forgo those calculations altogether, and intercept everything over an enhanced range. You could even remove the cooldown or TP costs on Guard for the time being. (See below.)

Guard - Channeled (max 2 seconds) - off the global cooldown - 30 TP + 20 TP per second. 10 second cooldown, reduced per potency blocked.
Increases block chance by 100% over the duration. (Excess block chance increases block effectiveness by half the excess percentage.)

You essentially weave this as needed. No offensive output over the duration, but can you heartily turtle. Ideally, I'd then use that to stack potential nuke damage or utilities through Shield Oath, but that's getting irrelevant at that point.

Personally, I would love to see:

• Block and Cover now apply to magic damage. (I don't mind PLD having the lowest DPS, but this means they should not have ANY holes in their defence)
• Clemency is uninterruptable, cast time reduced to 1.5 seconds, Edit: and stealing an idea, but also off GCD so it's weavable like Empyreal Arrow. (I don't want to see it go instant, or have a cooldown though, as having it repeatable cast, and on others, is useful in certain situations)
• Heal requirement removed from Divine Veil. (Seriously, why? It just makes it useless in all but the most co-ordinated groups)
• Riot Blade, or other mechanics, for faster MP recovery. (Doesn't need to be DRK levels, but between Flash, Clemency and what looks like now (Almost) Holy, more MP regen is needed; possibly tied to Sword Oath?)
• Make Sword Oath useful to the point that I notice if I'm not in it. (And possibly remove from GCD)
• Some form of repeatable AoE damage.