[Suggestion] Upgrading the Limit Break system

Hi guys! :p

So, I was talking to some of my FC mates and we agreed that the Limit Breaks (LB) system in this game is amazing! Level 3 LB's are nice to see.

But that's all there is to it. It's nice to see.

We thought that it would be cool if every class had an additional effect added to its limit break that is unique to that particular class, for example:
(JUST AN IDEA, I AM NOT A GENIUS :))

Warrior LB in addition to providing the defense buff provides the entire party with a short berserk/increased attack speed
Dragoon LB in addition to dealing damage provides an increased critical hit chance for the entire party (or only for himself)

I think this would make the LB mechanics more interesting to work with!

What do you guys think? ;)

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Originally Posted by Okita

What do you guys think? ;)

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Its cool on paper, but you would just see people find which one is best, and then yell at people when they don't save it for that one job.

The only problem with that is, LB3 are used at the end of a fight so the buffs wouldn't get much if any use.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

The only problem with that is, LB3 are used at the end of a fight so the buffs wouldn't get much if any use.

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Not necessarily. In a11s, it gets used around 40% there are a few fights where it builds up mid fight. No reason to save it.

I was thinking that the effect would be stronger the more bars you collect, the same as it works right now.

I just feel as if the LB3 system has the potential of being more than just something nice to look at to make the game more interesting

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Originally Posted by Okita

I was thinking that the effect would be stronger the more bars you collect, the same as it works right now.

I just feel as if the LB3 system has the potential of being more than just something nice to look at to make the game more interesting

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but it does. It brings utility, a hefty amount of damage, a full rez/heal/ damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Its cool on paper, but you would just see people find which one is best, and then yell at people when they don't save it for that one job.

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People do get salty for the smallest of reasons, true haha.

But as long as the original intended effect of the LB remains the same, the bonus buffs are merely a bonus and shouldn't really cause players to row.

I appreciate the dev team for upgrading the visual effects of each LB3 for every class (waaaaaaaaaaaay better than how it was in 2.0 when they all looked the same), but I think it's time to take it a notch further and make every LB truly unique to the class. It would just make the game waaaaay more interesting, dont you think?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

but it does. It brings utility, a hefty amount of damage, a full rez/heal/ damage mitigation.

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Lets put this back into perspective:
DPS LB
Caster LB - AOE Damage
Melee LB - Single Target Damage
Ranged LB - Straight Line AOE Damage
Tank LB
Damage Reduction
Healer LB
Resurrection/Heal

True, it brings utility, damage, healing, resurrection and damage mitigation as you said.

The issue here is, who should LB and why? The LB potency is a flat rate and it doesn't matter if a Ninja or a Monk LB's.

It would be nice if it did matter who LB'ed. Sure, you could cite a10s where a caster/range LB is pretty much needed to take out the adds effectively or a12s where the tank LB is needed to make it to the next phase, but almost every other fight sees the melee DPS LBing at one point or another, and atm it simply is irrelevant who LB's. The damage is pretty much the same for all melee classes.

Which is why I think adding a bonus buff of some sort would make the game more interesting.

Since I heal 99% of the time in this game and don't really raid, asking me to LB is like telling your third string quarterback to hop into the game.

I very much would like something along the lines of a personal LB to use. It wouldn't even have to be all that powerful, and just something to make things easier for a few seconds, get some extra deeps in.

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Originally Posted by Okita

True, it brings utility, damage, healing, resurrection and damage mitigation as you said.

The issue here is, who should LB and why? The LB potency is a flat rate and it doesn't matter if a Ninja or a Monk LB's.

It would be nice if it did matter who LB'ed. Sure, you could cite a10s where a caster/range LB is pretty much needed to take out the adds effectively or a12s where the tank LB is needed to make it to the next phase, but almost every other fight sees the melee DPS LBing at one point or another, and atm it simply is irrelevant who LB's. The damage is pretty much the same for all melee classes.

Which is why I think adding a bonus buff of some sort would make the game more interesting.

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What happens then, if you don't have such and such job with you where it did matter?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Since I heal 99% of the time in this game and don't really raid, asking me to LB is like telling your third string quarterback to hop into the game.

I very much would like something like along the lines of a personal LB to use. It wouldn't even have to be all that powerful, and just something to make things easier for a few seconds, get some extra deeps in.

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Precisely what my FC mate was talking about. Atm, at LB 1/2, tank and healer LBs are pretty much useless. The defense provided by the tank LB before LB3 is negligible and if a healer LB's before LB3, he's probably trolling. It would be great if they offered a unique buff of sorts to try and cut down the monopoly on the LB held by the DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

What happens then, if you don't have such and such job with you where it did matter?

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We would be in the same conundrum as you would be if you attempted A10s with 4 melee dps :D

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Originally Posted by Okita

It would be great if they offered a unique buff of sorts to try and cut down the monopoly on the LB held by the DPS classes.

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The issue is that LBs are shared, so only one person would ever get to LB: The one whose LB adds the most damage to the raid, whether through direct damage, buffs or a combination of the two. That is the precise reason why melees largely have a monopoly on it (and why ranged DPS get it in dungeons).

To solve this issue, LBs would have to be taken from the group and become a personal thing. Then however they screw with job balance - If two jobs have the same contribution outside of LBs, the one with the better LB is picked. At least, though, you'd ensure that everyone who does get picked gets to LB ever so often.

Pretty much a no from developers, since the idea behind LBs is either a recover button, defense button or offensive button when the other 2 options aren't needed.

Attempting to make it more than that would just ruin it's simplistic design, to serve as a tool to either aid in making combat end quicker or the ability to recover.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

The issue is that LBs are shared, so only one person would ever get to LB: The one whose LB adds the most damage to the raid, whether through direct damage, buffs or a combination of the two. That is the precise reason why melees largely have a monopoly on it (and why ranged DPS get it in dungeons).

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I think most players know why DPS jobs have the monopoly with LBs. It just makes more sense for them to use it the majority of the time. Therein lies the issue. Tank and healer roles rarely get to use theirs, and when the time comes, they might not even have it on their cross/hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

To solve this issue, LBs would have to be taken from the group and become a personal thing. Then however they screw with job balance - If two jobs have the same contribution outside of LBs, the one with the better LB is picked. At least, though, you'd ensure that everyone who does get picked gets to LB ever so often.

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Keep the group LBs as is. The LB3 should still be game-changing powerful. Instead introduce a new general action that gives players their own personal LB that builds based on their actions, favoring offense. This would mean tanks and healers can further optimize their roles by adding DPS to their repertoire, and the LB rewards these efforts by what they do best: a free single target/group heal/buff for healers, and a strong defensive/offensive buff for tanks. DPS will get theirs too, but will be less powerful/provide less utility for them in comparison to tanks and healers, but will still be balanced because filling the gauge will be easy for them due to it being based on offense, thus be able to use theirs more frequently. Basically, they harder they kill, the more they get to use their own LB.

Special and unique abilities are very rewarding to use, and make combat a hell of a lot more interesting. I am turning this into my own request as well.

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Originally Posted by Okita

Precisely what my FC mate was talking about. Atm, at LB 1/2, tank and healer LBs are pretty much useless. The defense provided by the tank LB before LB3 is negligible and if a healer LB's before LB3, he's probably trolling. It would be great if they offered a unique buff of sorts to try and cut down the monopoly on the LB held by the DPS classes.

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In 4-man content, LB2 by the tank or healer can be quite useful if the group is in trouble. IIRC tank LB2 is like an Adlo crit+deployment tactics from a SCH, and healers restore 80% of health for free. I believe the general rule is: if boss health > party health then either the tank or healer should LB2 and who gets it between these two is contingent on the healer's mana pool. In 8-man they could still be helpful depending on how many players and which jobs are still up, but otherwise only a fully charged LB gauge in very certain situations warrants their use by these two roles. IOW, practically never in the content I run, but can't speak for relevant raids and savage content. EX primals still favor DPS LB3 from my experience as well.

I feel the implementation of a personal LB is a great opportunity to reward players for their skill. Like I suggested, no need to make them crazy powerful, but good enough and with a cool animation that players will strive to fill their gauges so they can use it.

What if they reworked it so everyone had personal LBs (like PVP only a bit more balanced for PVE) and then using them at the same time would trigger a bonus effect like the current group ones?

Imagine the arguments.

The current system is a bit silly; I seem to spend most of my time in dungeons as a healer begging the people who get to press the button to remember it exists. I wouldn't really want personal and group ones to be separate though; that's a whole extra button for no real reason. I don't actually know what the healer LB3 looks like as every time I have used it I've been so desperately stressed out I haven't been able to watch it properly.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

What if they reworked it so everyone had personal LBs (like PVP only a bit more balanced for PVE) and then using them at the same time would trigger a bonus effect like the current group ones?

Imagine the arguments.

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Well, the idea I proposed isn't exactly a new concept. The TP gauge system in XI pretty much is a combination of what you and I have suggested in our statements. In case you are unaware, XI's TP system gave each job their own set of unique actions called weapon skills, and had multiple ones depending on the class of weapon. Two players could time their attacks to execute what I believe was referred to as limit breaks in that game. A caster could then contribute their own damage by casting a spell of a corresponding element to execute a magic burst which increased the accuracy and potency of the spell they cast.

Due to this sophistication, TP burn parties were found to be more optimal as increasing your accuracy and executing your highest damage TP attack didn't rely on the coordination of others. That said, I would keep it this way in this game and make the personal LBs personally rewarding and not relied upon the other members of your party.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Two players could time their attacks to execute what I believe was referred to as limit breaks in that game. A caster could then contribute their own damage by casting a spell of a corresponding element to execute a magic burst which increased the accuracy and potency of the spell they cast.

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Was called a skill chain. Done in w/ 2-3 weapon skills depending on the elemental magic burst you wanted to do. =x

Cool on paper but considering current balance issues I don't think adding special effects on the LB's of certain jobs would be advantageous to that balance..

As for the personal LB suggestion - many jobs do have "personal LBs" in a sense already..

Benediction.
Holmgang.
Hallowed Ground.
Living Dead.
Perfect Balance.

Just to name a few...

All you are suggesting with personal LB's is to add another skill tied to a "cooldown" of sorts (in the way that you have to fill the LB bar up before using it) that gives you a one-off strong "whatever your role does" action.

I mean it's cool in theory though you might as well just give every job a new high-CD skill without having to add another battle mechanic to the game.

Limit breaks are party wide for the very reason that it's a "shared" action that can be decided upon how to use it.. Giving everyone a personal LB is just the same as giving everyone a new high-CD skill.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Cool on paper but considering current balance issues I don't think adding special effects on the LB's of certain jobs would be advantageous to that balance..

I mean it's cool in theory though you might as well just give every job a new high-CD skill without having to add another battle mechanic to the game.

Limit breaks are party wide for the very reason that it's a "shared" action that can be decided upon how to use it.. Giving everyone a personal LB is just the same as giving everyone a new high-CD skill.

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I still feel like the LB system right now is just too simplistic. Absolutely nothing special about a PLD LB compared to a DRK LB and its quite unfortunate since there is indeed an opportunity to make it something more interesting.

Unfortunately, simplistic is what you need for a mechanic like LB. It's a mechanic that's usable once per fight, so we'd go from seeing only damage limit breaks being used to only ninja limit breaks being used or something.

I understand the intention, but this just isn't a mechanic that'll translate well to MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Cool on paper but considering current balance issues I don't think adding special effects on the LB's of certain jobs would be advantageous to that balance..

As for the personal LB suggestion - many jobs do have "personal LBs" in a sense already..

Benediction.
Holmgang.
Hallowed Ground.
Living Dead.
Perfect Balance.

Just to name a few...

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Those still remain strong abilities on a very long CD. The LB would be stronger than these, just not as strong as an LB3. And I wouldn't underestimate the reward in of itself with really cool animation that would be exclusive to the job.

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Originally Posted by Altena

All you are suggesting with personal LB's is to add another skill tied to a "cooldown" of sorts (in the way that you have to fill the LB bar up before using it) that gives you a one-off strong "whatever your role does" action.

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If you think that is all I am suggesting you are misreading the entire intention of it. I am not even say this would work, but the idea is to reward players who optimize their roles. Other things can be granted such a higher exp yield from mobs that take damage from said LBs, increased drop rate, etc.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I mean it's cool in theory though you might as well just give every job a new high-CD skill without having to add another battle mechanic to the game.

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No, that is not the same thing. We already have the problem of useful abilities on player's hotbars collecting dust. The idea is to get them to use these skills.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Limit breaks are party wide for the very reason that it's a "shared" action that can be decided upon how to use it.. Giving everyone a personal LB is just the same as giving everyone a new high-CD skill.

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The problem remains that healers and tanks still rarely get to use theirs. :|

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Unfortunately, simplistic is what you need for a mechanic like LB. It's a mechanic that's usable once per fight, so we'd go from seeing only damage limit breaks being used to only ninja limit breaks being used or something.

I understand the intention, but this just isn't a mechanic that'll translate well to MMOs.

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If you understand the intention of it, then you would know that this doesn't limit the system to having only a ninja do them. In this system, everyone should be using their limit breaks.

I'll call them Limit Break Level 4!...

Bard's LB4 will revive the entire party like it did before it was crippled!... :mad:

Mmm. I think I'll pass. The purpose of Limit on tanks for example, is mitigation, as their role is to protect people. It is too OP having extra effects. On the other hands, makes the limit break of tanks and healers more frequent and not only on specific situations. Tanks on some duties like Bahamut teraflare or Alexander judgment is too few, and for healers is like "Oh shit" button.

If we need upgrade the LB system, I will say for a job unique LB on all levels, not only level 3. At least the animations. And more use to the tanks and healer LB.

i think the lb system is a joke as it stand right now, let's face it, it's one mechanic we save for rare occassion. tank lb have very limited usage, same for healing lb (exept when the group wipe, but that another trouble) we end up using mostly dps lb.

the idea behind is nice, but i feel it's lackluster and need more work on it.

Actually it makes sense to gain another Limit Break bar and of course additional effects!...

Why!?... The reason being that as level cap increases Limit Breaks must also become stronger or we would end up with a Lustrate at level 60 which does wimpy healing compared to what it did at level 50 before being weakened!... :(

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Originally Posted by Okita

~snip~

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Sounds cool, but kills party composition even more than player's mentality on raids.

As a few people have pointed out, tanks and white mages already have their own mini-limit breaks, which somewhat makes up for the fact that they rarely get to use a limit break in most content. I suspect that's not a complete coincidence.

I see a lot of problems with adding more effects to limit breaks, though. Aside from the obvious issues like favoring a particular class for their LB, I feel like it would cause a lot of unnecessary conflict. No tank or healer is going to LB right now unless it's going to save the party, but what if WAR's LB had an offensive buff? Maybe WARs would considering using LB at LB1 or LB2, thus a.) decreasing the limit bar for later in the fight when it might be needed and b.) annoying people playing other jobs who feel their LB would have been better. As it is, I already have MNK friends who refuse to LB because they don't like risking losing their GL stacks, and if that is going to be an issue I can't imagine if the difference actually matters.

Yeah, I think LB needs to maintain its current simplicity, otherwise players will encourage certain comps as "meta" even more then they do now. For example, using your WAR LB suggestion, any time tank LB is needed, everyone would simply want a WAR so they can get the added berserk effect, making WAR even more mandatory than it already is.