I feel like I'm in a constant uphill battle with this game. I don't mind that progression is drawn out, I can handle that. But this weekly gating with zero recourse to amend a mistake is enough to make me uninstall and never look back. I have zero doubts that this practice is in fact designed to prolong subscriptions (i.e. $$$), but I refuse to believe there's no better way to keep people engaged in their progress and continuing to sub each month.
Yes, I just accidentally clicked greed in Dun Scaith. And now I have a useless item for a level 22 character that I have no intentions of getting to 60 any time soon. Why? Because I want to have fun with my games, not have them feel like some tedious job that I don't even get paid for. Yes, this is entirely my fault. Yes, I understand all that. But I don't want to make this post about why I have no right to amend this mistake. It's about the horrible system that makes such a mistake so devastating.
I truly do love this game. It's so gorgeous, the mechanics are rich and complex, they haven't succumbed to the temptation of pay2win. But put in contrast with this horribly frustrating weekly system... I feel like I'm being forced to do things I don't want to do, simply because I can do no more of the things I actually want to do.
I'm starved for new and interesting content. The worst part is that it's right there already, in the game. I just can't access it because I've got to spend every week progressing my character to a point where I can actually access the new content. I wasn't playing since day one. I have breaks, holidays, etc. Losing one weeks' Dun Scaith drop means another week I have to wait to play something new and interesting.
It means another week of monotonously repetitive Beast Tribe Quests; another week of the same handful of dungeons over and over; another week of rushing to get all my dailies done so that I can get slightly closer to something new. I feel like 90% of my time is spent bored out of my mind, all for the sake of that 10% of truly entertaining content. Out of the 20-odd hours I'd play each week, maybe one or two of those didn't feel like work. But that 10% was so good that it made it almost worth it.
I'm seriously questioning now whether it is, in fact, worth it. There are so many other games out there that I would enjoy 99% of my time playing. I love the FF franchise, and I love(d) this iteration of it. It makes me really, really sad to feel this way about something I loved for so long.
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04-02-2017, 02:19 PMBilky[SUGGESTION] Severe weekly gating is destroying my love of this game
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04-02-2017, 03:20 PMPence
What exactly are you locked out of, that a single drop would greatly alter? With your gear you should be able to participate in most content. Go run Diadem for free i265s? There's also the /900 weekly cap, and unlocked savage.
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04-02-2017, 03:40 PMBilky
The challenge of progressing to current end-game content, rather than speed-run after speed-run of the same dungeons, raids, and trials that everybody has done a millions times over already.
900 weekly cap is literally not even a week old and will be back to 450 in another few months. And I can't ~~access~~ expect a group to carry me through end-game savage because I don't have the appropriate gear.
I resubbed at the behest of a friend a little over a month ago. I've done three diadem runs so far, about three hours of grinding, and not seen a single piece for my SMN. If your solution to replacing an hour running Dun Scaiths per week is to spend upwards of three hours grinding Diadem, then that's not much of a solution to me. I'm still limited by time (as are most people), and it's still a soft cap. Dun Scaith is far more reliable progression, and allows me the opportunity to spend the rest of that time grinding away at my Relic weapon. At least with Dun Scaith, I had the freedom of spending more of my time enjoyably. Diadem would not remedy that.
Unless, of course, I just had the worst luck imaginable with the drops. It's not the Diadem I remembered, which overburdened my bags with gear every run. I get the impression that, even with good luck, it will still take far longer to gear up in Diadem. -
04-02-2017, 03:43 PMIromi
You can edit your post btw to bypass the character limit :) Also I am not a fan of the lock outs either...it seems to have the oppisite effect with my friends and I. When we get bored because of how everything is gated...most of them unsub, I just take a break...it sucks.
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04-02-2017, 04:03 PMBilky
Omg, thank you. Just condensed all my posts so hopefully it's a lot easier to read now =P
And yes, it sucks so much! lol. Part of me feels like I'd be perceived as greedy or entitled for wanting to play the new content, like I don't have a right to it or something. It's made me hesitant to voice this opinion. But at the same time, it literally pushes me away from playing the game and giving SE my money, which they need to survive. (I'm sure they'll survive without my money, but you get the point) -
04-02-2017, 04:49 PMPenceMaybe MMOs aren't for you? Drops need to be either time-gated or RNG/Grind based. You are offered both, but don't accept either. Unless you have a suggestion for a working loot system outside the scope of either of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilky
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04-02-2017, 05:04 PMBilky
That completely unfair, Pence.
Does the *amount* of time not factor into a time-gate? You're implication is that all time-gates are created equal, which is absurd. You can't just say it "needs to be Grind-based". Quantify it. I did, and I'm saying it's too much. Your words are vague and unhelpful, and they feel mildly condescending if I were to be honest.
I've been playing MMOs since WoW was first released. This is the first time grinding or time-gating has left me so exhausted and unmotivated. The light at the end of the tunnel is so much further away than any other MMO I've played, and yes, I've played a lot. Have you played Eve Online? That is one hell of a time-gate if ever I saw it, but it works perfectly and I don't have any of the qualms that I have with SE.
Address the point of the post, not your assumptions about me. I'm not here to debate whether or not you think I'm suitable for MMOs, or whether you feel I'm being over-entitled with content and progression. That's not going to get us anywhere besides pointless bickering. -
04-02-2017, 05:50 PMDeliciou5Greed is not the main factor in gating things. Balancing the community is as well. You need to have differing times for obtaining certain gear and accessing certain content mixed with various levels of challenge to balance everything and make everything more worth doing. Yes there will always be some people who do content for the sake of doing it, but the vast majority won't, and any new content won't have much value in being made by SE or being accepted as decent content by the community when you easily bypass the content by having no weekly caps for example...so why even bother with savage at all? When diadem first came out and dropped Best in Slot 210 gear out the ass, people didn't really feel the need to do alex savage gordias anymore for 210 savage gear because of the ease of obtaining almost just as good gear, if not better from random stats on diadem 210 gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilky
This game is very casual in a lot of ways, in fact end game in this game is probably the least hardcore out most systems. You say you lack time, but that wouldn't be an issue if you were playing since the level capped was introduced. I know it sucks that you started late and you can't change that, but the current system in place is already very accommodating towards casual play...making it even more casual would dispel the NEED to do the content at all, yeah there would stil be some that do it, but the amount of parties doing it would be significantly less, and you would have a MUCH harder time getting into the content and completing it all. It's about balancing the community and keeping them playing.
Also you have nearly two months to gear up your job and run some stuff, there are many alternatives to get gear, not just dun scaith or diadem, yes they are not as high in item level but they can still help you progress faster and act as filler until you get those better pieces. For example lore tomes are a good way to go for those filler, however you need to grind and have time to make full use of these catchup gear choices, so therein lies your problem. The best solution is to plan for the future and play the game where your casual playstyle will benefit you.
In the end, any mmo requires time, i guess if you stick with the game and experience the new expansion you can still play casually from the beginning of the patch instead of near the end of one....which will allow you to be more casual about your progression and accommodate your limited schedule.Gates and weekly caps are the things that add value to doing content because you have to weigh how long things will take and compare the results from other things, you have done the same between dun scaith and diadem, and you decided on what is more efficient. That is why things need to be gated to make different types of content worth doing for the vast majority to keep those types of parties appearing in PF for the community as a whole.
Otherwise, everyone would have their Best in Slot gear within a very short time and many would quit growing bored of the limited content for each new patch and stop playing. A lot players have more fun when they have goals. -
04-02-2017, 06:45 PMBilky
For the second time now I've lost all my words thanks to accidentally clicking back with my fourth mouse button. So I'll keep this short =P
I was wrong when I said 20 hours a week. Steam says I play an embarrassing ~100 hours a fortnight. I study my rotations. I rehearse ex-primals and write up flowcharts for stages of a fight. I even made this Astro cheat-sheet. I'm not casual.
I'm forced to be casual, and I hate it. I have goals, but they're artificially gated behind a weekly lockout. And one mistake means I have to wait another week before joining an Alex group without getting kicked instantly. I played Eve Online for Christ's sake, and loved every minute of it! And still do! Why am I being punished for arriving late? How does it keep the community balanced to have them so heavily segregated with little to no way to climb the ladder and be a part of the tier where you will find the content interestingly challenging?
> That is why things need to be gated to make different types of content worth doing
Worth doing =/= engaging or satisfying. It doesn't even feel fair. I could clock up more hours in a month than someone who started playing six months ago and only put in an hour each day, and still be further behind them in progression. I could put in a million hours, if it were possible, yet it still wouldn't get me any closer to the content that I would actually find challenging and interesting, that I haven't done a million times already. I don't mind gating, but doing it like this forces you to engage in activities that don't feel like they help achieve your goal.
> A lot players have more fun when they have goals.
(EDIT: Thanks for taking the time to write such a well-thought and detailed response. I agree with a lot of your comments too, and in the two previous iterations of this post I had made that more clear. Hope you can read between the lines and understand that lol =P ) -
04-02-2017, 07:00 PMDeliciou5Like i said, you probably be much happier near the beginning of a patch then near the end of one. The content itself is fun, not the systems that gate it. Who finds grinding that much fun anyways? I agree with a lot of what you say, but without introducing an alternative to keep players playing for longer, and without considering how considerable the drop off would be if goals were achieved easily and quickly is foolhardy at best. The system shouldn't change just for the minority who join late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilky
Also being forced into activities to achieve other goals is why this system works so well. Everyone can catch-up on things they need to catch up on through roulette's for example you also make more friends that way. You don't want to play the game the way it was designed apparently, however without a better alternative it will quickly turn to crap and you will not see many players playing near the end of patches and it will be even more dead than it is now. The only reason you see people still playing is cause of the new campaign for players who can play free indefintely up to 35 or something and people who choose to level up their alts and things like Main story quests and new diadem. -
04-02-2017, 07:04 PMBilky
You've really narrowed the issue to the core problem, and made a very valid point I didn't realise about the way I play games (hardcore =P) compared to the way SE designed it; trying to balance hardcore with casual retention, all while keeping everyone engaged in all the content so no one gets left behind. I just wish there were some middle-ground between the two ideas. I know it exists, I've played more than enough MMOs to know there's more than one way of doing this, but I'm too weary and unmotivated to hypothesise what that might be and how it might fit into the FFXIV framework.
Thanks again for your response. -
04-02-2017, 07:32 PMDeliciou5Maybe they could also introduce a system where gear item level gets experience and level up, so you could get lower level pieces, but they would still be worth something if you have the time to grind them to level up, otherwise just do savage to get higher pieces to avoid the grind. Also have each piece still have limits to how much you can level them up(by maybe just 10 or 20 ilvls?) to not make other content obsolete. You can obtain more pieces at once, but you would have to grind them still to get them in full form still making you wait to achieve your full potential. However it would be more controlled by how much you play and not arbitrary time-based gates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilky
I believe gear leveling up would allow SE to add more types of content that was relevant to end game,making it more horizontal with choices without stepping on the toes of each other and it might speed things up for people who join late who can just get more gear then grind it up. Not that there shouldn't be limits on how many pieces you could get from each content, but it will allow them to still make people EARN their gear, forcing them to make the same choices of efficiency that they did before weighing which one is more worth their time. Skilled players go for savage for the alts instead of grinding, and the hardworking late comers can catch up quickly just takes a lot grinding which will take a bit, but won't be as bad as being forced to wait. -
04-02-2017, 07:50 PMIgnnis
They might lift the gate in Dun closer to SB release BUT until then here's a little help from me: if you accidentally greed something you can reopen the loot window and click pass to change it. Note, this doesn't work if you are the last to roll (ofc) but it's something you can do if it's not too late.
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04-04-2017, 03:05 PMAcidblood
So, what would you suggest as an alternative? I get that it can be frustrating that you can't get a full set of 260/270 gear in less than about 7-10 weeks (under normal progression conditions), but personally I much prefer the time-gated approach of tomestones / weekly drops to the time-sink approach of pure RNG (or requiring masses of resources).
Also, and there are reasons to disagree, but I like the effect that time-gating has on the community generally, in as much as it makes people stick around and continue to run content over the medium to long term. Without time gating most players would just grind the hell out of each new gear level and then leave… basically, if you miss the wave, you miss out.
I guess one thing they could do, but it would require a bit of a systems change, is to make some of the weekly caps into more of a per week system with a multi-week cap ...
For example, using a system that allows +450 tomes per week, with a maximum cap of 900, you could have:
Player A: 450 in week 1; 0 + 450 = 450 in week 2; total of 900 over 2 weeks.
Player B: 300 in week 1; 150 + 450 = 600 in week 2; total of 900 over 2 weeks.
Player C: 0 in weeks 1 to 3, 450 + 450 = 900 in week 4; maximum of 900 until the next weekly reset.
This would still leave player C a few weeks behind players A and B (depending on the maximum cap), but it would at least leave them less behind than the current system. Also, it allows player B, who can’t always play consistently each week, a bit more flexibility and opportunity to catch up when they can play.