Jobs are balanced equally and no class is considered meta.

https://i.gyazo.com/88ca7361bd883179...93eb2e57ef.png

Feast.

All is as it should be. . .

*ascends*

#deletemch

#mchdeleteppl

#andtheyalsoccmeeverytwosecondsSTOPITJUSTLETMEHEALdeletemch

How often does that happen though? and clearly was not done to a tank.

Anyways that is the problem with MCH and BRD, they can do that, then be useless till it is ready again. SCH is in the same boat. I can burst heal very effectively then be useless for a minute.

Thing is, in between the eyes is easy to predict, I had a MCH and WAR trying burst me down and eventually gave up because I saw it coming to react heal to it. I have 10.4k hp, so unless you had someone else timing a 2.4k hit at the same exact split second you did that 8k damage (the war and mch on me tried btw) I will burst heal over it. MCH bind has an unique sound, lamo I knew it was coming.

But ya I think they need town down healing bursting and DPS bursts while making consistent healing/dps more potent.

MCHs are definitely not useless when their burst is down. They can contribute more than a melee or tank.

And you've obviously not been against good MCHs then. A quick hardswap onto heal and you can easily drop 10+k damage in their 3s stun

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Originally Posted by xxczx

MCHs are definitely not useless when their burst is down. They can contribute more than a melee or tank.

And you've obviously not been against good MCHs then. A quick hardswap onto heal and you can easily drop 10+k damage in their 3s stun

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You never met a good healer if you think a healer would let a mch walk up to them and get hit by that. Purify is a thing anyway, but hey if a healer is letting a mch walk up to them to begin with, guess they would not know about purify right?

You are wrong, outside in between the eyes MCH is easy to heal though, a good drg or mnk on the other hand.... If you hit me with a 8k move like that, you would need help because by time you hit a second ability, I would healed myself, there is a delay, I know when to expect in between the eyes.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You never met a good healer if you think a healer would let a mch walk up to them and get hit by that. Purify is a thing anyway, but hey if a healer is letting a mch walk up to them to begin with, guess they would not know about purify right?

You are wrong, outside in between the eyes MCH is easy to heal though, a good drg or mnk on the other hand.... If you hit me with a 8k move like that, you would need help because by time you hit a second ability, I would healed myself, there is a delay, I know when to expect in between the eyes.

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I mean that's all well and good but as a fellow healer surely you know that you can't always be on your toes that a mch can never walk up to you, there are three other opponents as well as your party members to watch out for, nor will you always have purify up.

Not saying you're completely wrong but that's kind of oversimplifying things, making it sound easier than it actually is.

The problem is the huge skill gap between players that think they know what they are doing, and the ones that actually do. Regardless of class, if a skilled player is playing vs a bad one, they will win and make it look OP.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You never met a good healer if you think a healer would let a mch walk up to them and get hit by that. Purify is a thing anyway, but hey if a healer is letting a mch walk up to them to begin with, guess they would not know about purify right?

You are wrong, outside in between the eyes MCH is easy to heal though, a good drg or mnk on the other hand.... If you hit me with a 8k move like that, you would need help because by time you hit a second ability, I would healed myself, there is a delay, I know when to expect in between the eyes.

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Even if you purify mch stun BTE will still proc and you will still have to use an instant heal and purify will be on CD for 90s. Mch also has multiple burst rotations so another will come out while your purify is down. Not to mention the mch is silencing you and stealing a gcd away from you every 30s.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

https://i.gyazo.com/88ca7361bd883179...93eb2e57ef.png

Feast.

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It doesn't hit that hard under normal circumstances.

Fully self buffed it hits about as hard as fell cleave.
And Im pretty sure fully buffed empyreal arrow hits harder

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Mch also has multiple burst rotations

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So does Bard

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Not to mention the mch is silencing you and stealing a gcd away from you every 30s.

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Again, Bard does this also

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Originally Posted by Enlial

It doesn't hit that hard under normal circumstances.

Fully self buffed it hits about as hard as fell cleave.
And Im pretty sure fully buffed empyreal arrow hits harder


So does Bard


Again, Bard does this also

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What, you cannot compare bard to mch. Don't even put them on the same level.

1) mchs burst rotation 0 cast time, unlike bard. Mch has a 20s window to use burst, making it nigh impossible for 1 class to shutdown. Not needing 2 dots on the target also helps immensely.
2) mch has a vuneralbilty debuff that cannot be purified, that also helps melee.
3) mchs knockback is on a 30s cooldown instead of a forever cooldown. Bind is also on a super low 20s cooldown. This is probably the most game breaking aspect of mch. Being able to shutdown a melee every 20s or knock a tank off of you before burst is extremely powerful.
4) mchs second burst is extremely more powerful than bards. Honestly I didn't even know a bard could burst more than one way, but I'll take your word for it.
5)mch has a lot more artistic freedom. You can play mindgames with your burst, whereas bard is very static.
6) You lose less in PvP having to mp song your turret than having to sing ballad.
7) mch is extremely more mobile than bard with gauss barrel on, making you lose way less damage while kiting than bard.
8) mch has an ogcd 3s AoE stun. No ranged dps can stun, no class outside of AST and WAR has an AoE ogcd stun. Mch is the only dps class that has this utility. It is insane.
9) brd silence is 1s every 30s. Mch is 2s every 25s. That extra 1s sometimes forces an ogcd whereas brds is just used as a mini interrupt.

There are more things that make mch extremely powerful compared to bard. If you are trying to argue brd is even close to mch in the current meta and this quick list didn't make you think otherwise, I am out of words. Mch so much stronger than any other ranged DPS it isn't even funny.

They called us weak and shunned us at the start of Heavensward.

Let us enjoy our time in the sun. We're probably getting nerfed into the shadow realm in 4.0 :D

or in 3.56 :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

or in 3.56 :rolleyes:

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You shush! No bright ideas!

Please ignore my friend here, they've been drinking or something. Move along :D

A fully buffed BTE does not hit the same as a fell cleave, maybe on patch 3.05 when Seal Rock released but since VIT change on tanks, nothing hits as hard as BTE.

As for the purify on healers thing, while it's very https://i.gyazo.com/6fe224b7c074f5b7...6df25425ca.png that purify is a skill you can use to get yourself out of situations you might die, the animation lag of Clean Shot fits very nicely with Stun Gun & Between the Eyes where they have hardly no animation at all making all three skills nearly instant; killing off your target with a nice 300 potency Ricochet if you use Blank to get them out of crowds. Let's not forget that your Rapid Fire is still up so you can continue on with your combo with no cast time as well as the other skills you have off-CD.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

How often does that happen though? and clearly was not done to a tank.

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But BTE destroys stacked tanks...

http://i.imgur.com/8XgiJQm.png?1

So many people here that have no idea how PvP is in this game.

Even with purify, or being a tank or whatever, this will DESTROY you. If it doesn't one shot you, the next OGCD nuke will.
Just looking at MCH, they'll pop everything they have, and pump you full with Between the Eyes, Gauss Shot, Ricochet, a push back, stun, Lead shot and if somehow you're still alive, Hypercharge will cripple you for the next person.

Did I mention this all happens within 10 seconds?

.01s - 2s~ for damage applications, if done right.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Even if you purify mch stun BTE will still proc and you will still have to use an instant heal and purify will be on CD for 90s. Mch also has multiple burst rotations so another will come out while your purify is down. Not to mention the mch is silencing you and stealing a gcd away from you every 30s.

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I know that, it isn't for defending the damage, it is to allow me to heal after it. If I get bound from a distance (MCH sound esp) I do not bother to purify and have my finger on the button on it and Lustrate to see what the plan is. If anyone walks up to me I am running away (going to the post saying I am oversimplifying things) If I have stacks there is no reason for me to stand in a spot, I mean I am rarely hit by close range stuns other then PLD yolos, and nothing much I can do about that other then spiriting in circles.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

So many people here that have no idea how PvP is in this game.

Even with purify, or being a tank or whatever, this will DESTROY you. If it doesn't one shot you, the next OGCD nuke will.
Just looking at MCH, they'll pop everything they have, and pump you full with Between the Eyes, Gauss Shot, Ricochet, a push back, stun, Lead shot and if somehow you're still alive, Hypercharge will cripple you for the next person.

Did I mention this all happens within 10 seconds?

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That next move is still DELAYED, i healed though it before, I have 10,4k Hp in PvP. My heal, Lustrate will register before any follow up made by a single person, also MCH doesn't have a 2k follow up, (least I never seen one) unlike brd. You need 2 people, even with a in between the eyes, like in the OP, to land at the same time, to kill me. The only way to get me is to weaken me enough, stun, then do it, you need to kill me with it. I think people have tried but misjudged because I pad HP a bit.

Of course I'm dead meat without my stacks .. so there is that too, I tend to fall further back when I am spent like that though.

MCH has Auto-crit Clean Shot/Ricochet/Gauss Round/Stun Gun and even Slug Shot can get upwards to 2k damage under buffs.

MCH burst is very versatile, and can do easy mind games. Such as bind you (like above), assuming you're going to oGCD heal damage, walk up to you, stun lock, kill you. If you intend to attune, that can easily be baited too and since they are range they can easily switch their burst to another target.

OR bind you behind a wall to force you to purify, pray esuna get's bind, or watch your team die.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

MCH has Auto-crit Clean Shot/Ricochet/Gauss Round/Stun Gun and even Slug Shot can get upwards to 2k damage under buffs.

MCH burst is very versatile, and can do easy mind games. Such as bind you (like above), assuming you're going to oGCD heal damage, walk up to you, stun lock, kill you. If you intend to attune, that can easily be baited too and since they are range they can easily switch their burst to another target.

OR bind you behind a wall to force you to purify, pray esuna get's bind, or watch your team die.

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yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

If by duel you mean 4v4 light party, then sure. Dueling 1v1 demonstrates nothing, unless it's just the burst itself you want to see. Even then, I don't have MCH leveled myself.

Kind of off-topic, but looking at this duscussion does make me wonder: do you guys think the SMN nerfs in PVP were warranted, then? I only played it in FLs pre-nerf, never Feast, but aside from Deathflare being a laughably efficient kill-steal I never really felt like I was "OP" - in fact, I lacked pretty much any reliable means of self-defense if I was caught off guard and my healers were vegetables.

I just seem to recall a lot of "nerf SMN, they're so OP" talk and yet I don't feel like they had anywhere near the power that MCH has at their peak during early Seal Rock days.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

If by duel you mean 4v4 light party, then sure. Dueling 1v1 demonstrates nothing, unless it's just the burst itself you want to see. Even then, I don't have MCH leveled myself.

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Sad, just I never had issues with any MCH because they have no damage outside bursting.

Play a season of Feast, reach the highest bracket of players, then you'll learn the power of MCH. MCH has damage and utility outside of their burst window and they emit tons of pressure. Good ones that is, not the GARO players in FL/low bracket Feast games.

Dueling a healer with 9 lustrates is pointless. Game is balanced around 4v4, not 1v1.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Kind of off-topic, but looking at this duscussion does make me wonder: do you guys think the SMN nerfs in PVP were warranted, then? I only played it in FLs pre-nerf, never Feast, but aside from Deathflare being a laughably efficient kill-steal I never really felt like I was "OP" - in fact, I lacked pretty much any reliable means of self-defense if I was caught off guard and my healers were vegetables.

I just seem to recall a lot of "nerf SMN, they're so OP" talk and yet I don't feel like they had anywhere near the power that MCH has at their peak during early Seal Rock days.

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The main thing placing SMN behind MCH right now is their lack of an MP Refresh for their Healer. Other then that, they sit in a good spot in terms of balance. Great burst, sustain, peels, utility. Majority of their burst is AoE, so hitting multiple people with it can be very devastating and potentially turn a game around. They can do mini-burst with Aetherflow/Dread, which is both powerful, versatile, and easy to combine with melee/tank burst. They also have the caster lb, which is a lot more potent than range lb.

The SMN nerfs were warranted, looking at how strong Good SMNs are now post-nerf, it was definitely needed. MCH has also received buffs due to general changes during the whole SMN nerfing. Such as GB distance penalty no longer reducing damage at melee range, allowing MCH to stun and burst at the same time for full damage. Also buffs to PvE that also largely effected their place in PvP, hypercharge being a big one. It needs a nerf of some kind, it has everything going for it, and barely any noticeable flaws.

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

What, you cannot compare bard to mch. Don't even put them on the same level.

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They're the most comparable of any two jobs, because they're so similar. But your points are good (a screenshot of BTE's dmg, hitting someone with an unstated amount of medal stacks and who knows what else, is not). Bard really doesn't have much of anything going for it that mch doesn't do better, and mch does a lot of things bard cant. The only clear advantage bard has that comes to mind is an extra 20% crit through int release and S.shot (tho mch gets 15% on BTE through a trait). As for BTE, which was what started this thread, Barraged Emp Arrow does hit harder (3x230 potency vs 450 potency) so long as you're talking non-crits. And crit in pvp is rng bs which is an issue of its own and, imo, should be removed or just treated like determination. But yeah, emp arrow is cast whereas BTE is an oGCD, so there's that. Plus mch's answer to barrage is rapid fire, which obv isnt consumed when using bte, so that's a benefit as well.

Not sure what you mean about ballad vs bishop mp field. Both drain mp at the same rate. Battle voice would make the bards faster but that says more about bards other songs being useless whereas mch would be using HC for its physical vuln down. Maybe if nin ever gets fixed BV'd foe req could see some use xD You also forgot dismantle/rend mind.

In practice it doesnt really seem as bad as you seem to be making it out to be tho. Wasnt there recently a 12 or so page thread of people whining about bard burst?

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

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So why does MCH need nerfs while MNK gets to simply wear the title of being "the best"? I know thats probably not what you're saying but it does seem like people get hella fixated

In practice MCH is significantly better than BRD.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

So why does MCH need nerfs while MNK gets to simply wear the title of being "the best"? I know thats probably not what you're saying but it does seem like people get hella fixated

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I'm aware MNK needs nerfs, everyone knows this, but we are talking about MCH right now in this thread. If not nerfs to MNK, NIN/DRG needs changes in PvP and more utility, which is what I'd prefer.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

The main thing placing SMN behind MCH right now is their lack of an MP Refresh for their Healer. Other then that, they sit in a good spot in terms of balance. Great burst, sustain, peels, utility. Majority of their burst is AoE, so hitting multiple people with it can be very devastating and potentially turn a game around. They can do mini-burst with Aetherflow/Dread, which is both powerful, versatile, and easy to combine with melee/tank burst. They also have the caster lb, which is a lot more potent than range lb.

The SMN nerfs were warranted, looking at how strong Good SMNs are now post-nerf, it was definitely needed. MCH has also received buffs due to general changes during the whole SMN nerfing. Such as GB distance penalty no longer reducing damage at melee range, allowing MCH to stun and burst at the same time for full damage. Also buffs to PvE that also largely effected their place in PvP, hypercharge being a big one. It needs a nerf of some kind, it has everything going for it, and barely any noticeable flaws.

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

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Maybe I just don't utilize SMN very well in PVP, then (healer main). Aside from Tri-Bind/Blizz II, what manner of peels do they effectively have? Pet abilities that are fairly easily locked down and have annoying queuing problems/response delay? Caster LB is certainly better than range LB, I'll give you that. And while I like their kit as designed, with mass-pressure/healer resource drains in mind, I just find I'm pretty easily outplayed by people and don't often come out on top in 1v1 scenarios. Might be a player skill issue though, since as I said, I'm one of the masochists that actually prefers healer in PVP for the most part.

Missing context , please delete this thread

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

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My friend, surely as a fellow healer you should also know that of course if you duel 1v1 someone they can never kill you because you'll have full attention on them and no teammates to worry about. Calling for a 1v1 to test healing prowess just seems silly and even a little conceited.

It just sounds like you've never fought against some of the high level MCH. And let me tell you MCH CC make me want to blow myself up because if they're not doing as much damage they sure as heck are going to make it hard for you to heal from their other teammates' damage. I used to have a similar mindset to you until I fought against a couple of really good MCH players. Or maybe I'm just a baddy healer who knows.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Maybe I just don't utilize SMN very well in PVP, then (healer main). Aside from Tri-Bind/Blizz II, what manner of peels do they effectively have? Pet abilities that are fairly easily locked down and have annoying queuing problems/response delay? Caster LB is certainly better than range LB, I'll give you that. And while I like their kit as designed, with mass-pressure/healer resource drains in mind, I just find I'm pretty easily outplayed by people and don't often come out on top in 1v1 scenarios. Might be a player skill issue though, since as I said, I'm one of the masochists that actually prefers healer in PVP for the most part.

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Tri-bind/blizzard ii is their peel. Unlike brd/mch, it's on the GCD and is AoE. So it's a great peeling tool for your team to give your healer time to heal up/reposition/cc follow up/etc. Their other peel being garuda, but like you mentioned, is not reliable. Takes a lot of skill/effort to properly position garuda to be in the vicinity to knock back.

SMN has other utility such as Blind/Supervirus/E4E/Malady. Blind is one of the more broken soft debuffs in pvp in highly effective against tanks/melee or a range with hawk's eye on cd. E4E despite the proc being rng it more often than not usually applies to the people who hit it. Virus comes off cd around the same time other job's burst period is ready again which is generally 90s give or take. So it can be used to mitigate say range burst everytime. SMN's virus also reduces MND, so it can reduce the healing output of healers too. On top of that they have Malady which reduces healing received of the debuffed target, further straining and pressuring the opposing healer. Virus/Malady helps really well with their sustained damage.

In regards to 1v1ing, I would not gauge a job's potential from 1v1 scenarios since PvP is balanced around a 4v4 encounter. That being said, the only thing a smn can really do vs a melee is blind/debuff and pray otherwise they'll just lose. It's entirely an rng matchup in favor of the melee. Against ranged jobs, I assume they just lose outright, there isn't much counterplay they can do 1v1. But, I don't 1v1 enough to give reliable feedback for SMNvRange. Also, Tanks are gods in 1v1 duels, especially PLD, they'll usually always when a duel against a DPS. 1v1ing isn't SMNs strong suit and much of it's strength is seen in team fights.

Thanks for the tips, I definitely picked up on a few things I could try to improve upon. I think some of SMNs strengths like Virus really come through in smaller PVP content where odds are you're Virusing someone who is actually going to be attacking your team in some significant way shortly, compared to when I usually play in FLs and I Virus someone putting on an assault only for them to run back to their team and hide, haha. Same thing with E4E and it actually being a reliable proc on either your pet or the healer, compared to large-scale PVP where there's a lot of targets and people may swap off the one you E4E (I try to use it on ballsy tanks in FLs in the hopes that people will whack on them a ton and proc it, but I feel like I could be getting better mileage out of it somehow).

Either way, I really appreciate the feedback. Sorry for derailing the topic a bit, everyone.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Sad, just I never had issues with any MCH because they have no damage outside bursting.

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Ummm, you tried to heal through bard burst with Swiftcast Stone and complained it's too strong, but now you can easily heal MCH burst which is 130% stronger and has longer silence?
What happened.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

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That would prove nothing. In a real PvP match, while the MCH is doing his burst, the bard will be doing their burst on your Ninja, and the Monk will be a mile away trying to kill a BLM, and a PLD will sit smack in front you slapping you with his shield every 3 seconds.

Yes, on paper, a healer or tank could survive a fill burst from MCH, if they're fully prepared, the stars align with the god awful server ticks in PvP, and your other party members are not in danger of dropping dead.
8/10, meeting a good MCH is game over.

Here we go again. "I died to [insert class here]! That must mean that they're over powered. I didn't just get outplayed." And we wonder why PvP here is a disaster. Let's run down some the ways you could have survived this.

WHM: Virus, Swiftcast>Repose>Repose/run, Divine Prism, Benediction, Tetragrammaton. Divine Seal>Swiftcast>Cure II.
SCH: Virus, Adlo, Lustrate. Dissipation>Lustrate spam
AST: Disable. Noct Aspected Benefic spam. Essential Dignity. Lightspeed>Benefic II spam.

All healers> Attunement.

There is no balance problem here. You let a MCH open up a full burst on you without doing literally any of the dozen things you could have done to stop it.

And if you were a tank... How many stacks did you have with no defensive CDs up?

If you were a DPS... Why did you let the MCH open up on you, instead of destroying him while he had Blood for Blood up? Or, I don't know... Using any of your stuns/knockbacks/binds.... ANYTHING ELSE to get away?

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Originally Posted by Isala

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Or you can just... not use your burst when the healer is clearly preparing to protect against your burst..

I mean really, all you and your team needs to do is run away and they will have to run out of Sacred Prism. Well if they want the medals needed to win anyway.

We need more info. Did the target have medal stacks? How many?


Bursts can happen, if the MCH is good and knows how to burst, the only chance to survive is having a good healer to prevent it with mitigation.

I usually have no problem to heal a burst like that and prevent it's full damage, for example using the ground AoE reducing -40% the incoming damage, then saving insta-heals to pop them just after the impact.