I actually feel sory for the designer of the next 24man raid

I really do, just judging by the way people just run roughshod over the current 24 man raids and not even bothering to do the various mechanics right, simply bursting till they wipe at which point they blame 'other people' for not doing mechs, not even -trying- to perform the simpler mechanical steps .. so yeah.

So much love and attention will be lavished on the new 24 man.

And so damn little care will be given, people treat it like a piece of second-class or even third-class content to be done in disdain and to be rid of as fast as possible.

That's what happens when people are over confident -.- and don't listen welcome to the dark side of of Raids... Look at it this way, keep trying sooner or later you will get a break. That or change servers -.-/

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

That's what happens when people are over confident -.- and don't listen welcome to the dark side of of Raids... Look at it this way, keep trying sooner or later you will get a break. That or change servers -.-/

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This isn't a server issue.
This is a player attitude issue - and that's why I feel sorry.

People swagger into 24man, leave their brains at the entrance (or somewhere further back) and just abjectly refuse to put in effort, to the cynical comment that there are no roles in 24man, just 3 different kinds of dps: red, green and blue.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

This isn't a server issue.
This is a player attitude issue - and that's why I feel sorry.

People swagger into 24man, leave their brains at the entrance (or somewhere further back) and just abjectly refuse to put in effort, to the cynical comment that there are no roles in 24man, just 3 different kinds of dps: red, green and blue.

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As per server, comment, it depends there are a a lot of people and varies based on who takes leadership in a raid. By the sound of your comment looks like it happen more in your server than mine. I see it every now and then in Balmung. However after the first wipe I usually have to take reigns and give friendly reminder of mechanics. Helps to have a mentor status, and usually I've noticed people who have relics, and at least most jobs 60 are listened to more than those who may not. Being your one of us who actually has relics and lvl 60's you should understand that. Hence you have three choices, Try to take leadership, vote abandon, or take the penalty and leave. The developer is doing their job, well designed, so in this case blame the player not the product. As for people leaving their brains behind, hate to break it to you....common sense is dead now. Not just in gaming...but in real life as well.

Why do you keep believing this is just a server issue ?

I'm running on DF and it's just heartbreaking to see fully geared players; relics, raid kit and everything not even bothering to do game basics like move out of AoE or recognize a boss telegraphing.

I hope they bring the same difficulty of the emergency mission in diadem to the new 24-man raids.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

Why do you keep believing this is just a server issue ?

I'm running on DF and it's just heartbreaking to see fully geared players; relics, raid kit and everything not even bothering to do game basics like move out of AoE or recognize a boss telegraphing.

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/facepalm had a friend in Phoenix who use to tell me similar stories...He came to Balmung...Not 100% fix but less complaining that is for sure. I'm not saying it's the server it self, IT IS THOSE WHO PLAY IN IT. Welcome to MMO Raids. It's heart breaking yes. People Troll all you can do is black list them, before exiting so you no longer party with them. Eventually you can weed them out...unless you black list hits max.

This is why I'm not a fan of 24-person content, it's too easy to fall into the "somebody else will do it" trap and more often than not they're designed so only a few people needs to do mechanics (such as the tentacles in Cloud of Darkness).

I'd rather if they downscaled it to two groups so mechanics could be designed in a way that's less stupid than Ozma, but more involving than Cerberus.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

This is why I'm not a fan of 24-person content, it's too easy to fall into the "somebody else will do it" trap and more often than not they're designed so only a few people needs to do mechanics (such as the tentacles in Cloud of Darkness).

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i'm guilty of this for ferdiad. on day one i tried to change the tiles, but nobody knew what they were doing understandably, so i've just stopped trying at all. That being said, i really enjoy the 24mans. i feel like they're usually punishing enough without being too harsh barring a few outliers. the only real problems i have with em is other people killing me, i do that just fine myself thank you. scatach and diabolos hollow being prime examples of it.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

/facepalm had a friend in Phoenix who use to tell me similar stories...He came to Balmung...Not 100% fix but less complaining that is for sure. I'm not saying it's the server it self, IT IS THOSE WHO PLAY IN IT. Welcome to MMO Raids. It's heart breaking yes. People Troll all you can do is black list them, before exiting so you no longer party with them. Eventually you can weed them out...unless you black list hits max.

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Seems a little unfair to blame an entire server you don't even play on

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

people treat it like a piece of second-class or even third-class content to be done in disdain and to be rid of as fast as possible.

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And it always will be like this as long as it drops unupgradeable second-class gear which is usually useless on release day.

Pretty much every game, especially MMORPGs, develop a community that is barely able, but still able, to consume the majority of the content. Its the game training its players, rather than the other way around.

Harder games make better players to a large extent (there are limits to this, obviously. But look at the level at which the average OW or LoL player plays his chosen game: People are pretty good in the mid-ranks already).

24s that are more difficult (World of Darkness, for example) and require you to do mechanics because you will wipe, every time, without fail, will train players to play better, because they HAVE to.

Unfortunately, almost regardless of how easy or difficult something in a game is, you will always have those whose limits of playing skill (whether actual skill or, more usually, the will to try actually playing decent) are just below the current expected cap, and thus they feel uncomfortably stressed when trying to stretch up to the expected skill level to get their shinies. And they will complain.

Basically, in any game, nothing is ever easy enough, yet still fun. There is no sweet spot of "no complaints, maximum happiness". So, there is no point lowering standards to the point of content being boring upon release.

I think the wheeping city of mhach has the more interesting fights and mechanics, but numbers (and thus mistake tolerance) are a little undertuned. I think the Scathach is a good fight, the Cloud of Darkness was quite well-tuned at its release, whereas the entirety of the Syrcus Tower, Void Ark, most of the Labyrinth of the Ancients (exception being possibly the Behemoth) and the Diabolos fight(s) in Dun Scaith are untertuned.

I think we could do with a slight, but not big, increase in difficulty, or (actually better) a scaling down of equipment stats in the new 24s, but just use mechanics that you MUST do in order to succeed. People will adapt. We learned how to handle the skeletons in LoA, we learned how to go to the Hounds belly, to dodge the Cloud of Darkness, to dance with Titan Extreme, and to handle the Final Steps of Faith with weak gear on its release. We, as the playerbase, can be expected to stretch our legs a little more than just Dun Scaith.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

/facepalm had a friend in Phoenix who use to tell me similar stories...He came to Balmung...Not 100% fix but less complaining that is for sure. I'm not saying it's the server it self, IT IS THOSE WHO PLAY IN IT. Welcome to MMO Raids. It's heart breaking yes. People Troll all you can do is black list them, before exiting so you no longer party with them. Eventually you can weed them out...unless you black list hits max.

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You don't queue with people from your server, but datacenter too. The server card is pointless here.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

This isn't a server issue.
This is a player attitude issue - and that's why I feel sorry.

People swagger into 24man, leave their brains at the entrance (or somewhere further back) and just abjectly refuse to put in effort, to the cynical comment that there are no roles in 24man, just 3 different kinds of dps: red, green and blue.

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its a NA issue, 24 man raids NA side are chaotic messes. JP side are way more organized, explain things to new players and have it set up that B tanks A/C does adds and stuff. I really wish NA data centers took a page from them.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

I hope they bring the same difficulty of the emergency mission in diadem to the new 24-man raids.

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This!

The new Diadem itself was a failure, but the EM itself is extremely fun and actually difficult. I hope to see bosses that pushes us to communicate and work together instead of just whack on the boss until death.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be getting anything particularly new from outside devs.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

its a NA issue, 24 man raids NA side are chaotic messes. JP side are way more organized, explain things to new players and have it set up that B tanks A/C does adds and stuff. I really wish NA data centers took a page from them.

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Yeah.... that is not entirely true, no one explains jack 90% of the time on JP realms too, but it is true that we tend not to wipe.
I've never wiped in any lvl60 alliance raid. and I always pug em.
Yes, B is the main tank, A is emergency if B tank dies (seen it happen once on Irminsu) C pretty much just DPS, unless there are things he needs to tank (sinister in weeping city). For group split mechanic is alliance A that goes (Diabolos door, knots on the spider thingy)

I think part of the problem is the community itself. There is a culture (not everyone mind you) that if your new to content or only ran it a few times that somehow negatively reflects on you as the player. I feel people who might have only done the content a few times or dont completely get the mechanics wont speak up in fear of being flamed. No one likes to be the odd man out.

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Originally Posted by caponesavage

I think part of the problem is the community itself. There is a culture (not everyone mind you) that if your new to content or only ran it a few times that somehow negatively reflects on you as the player. I feel people who might have only done the content a few times or dont completely get the mechanics wont speak up in fear of being flamed. No one likes to be the odd man out.

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Actually when someone speaks up that they're new (and there's the rub) I've found a majority of people are willing to pitch in information or explain stuff - even something as brief as "if you're not sure what to do, follow [me/group/person x]" ... but getting people to speak up that they're not confident with the mechanics or new to the place is the hard part to begin with.

It's a small minority that -really- doesn't care and wants to 'get it over with' that fastpulls bosses and leaves little to no time to explain stuff ... but also a lot of people have gotten to timid (due to this toxic minority) to speak up -because of- their inexperience.

Rewards wise (@SuperZay) I find the argument moot -- outside of gear you still get (weekly) token loot you can use to upgrade your upgradable gear (and nobody is forcing you to roll on the gear, and besides if 'bad gear' was a reason to not care - why do people perform acceptably in dungeons then ?

I think it's a bit hit or miss. I've had simply horrible Dun Scaith runs but then I've had fantastic ones like I had last night with minimal deaths and most people on point or at least able to recover from the occasional oops quickly. But I think that raid is one that still forces you to do mechanics and this is a good thing. I see a lot of attempts to cheese in WC as well. And there are some things you can cheese, but some you can't. I think so long as the raid doesn't offer an alternative to skip this phase or that mechanic, then we will see more good than bad.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

But look at the level at which the average OW or LoL player plays his chosen game: People are pretty good in the mid-ranks already

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Define "Mid-Ranks". Over 70% are in Silver and Bronze. If you're gold, even low gold, you're already in the top 30%. And that's just among the around 10% of competitive players that bother getting ranked in the first place, the vast majority doesn't even participate in it.

Personally, I wholly agree that harder games will have a better playerbase on average. But I do disagree that this is because the game makes people better - people who are not good enough simply stop playing the game. That's part of why PvP games are very successful nowadays - Matchmaking ensures that people are getting a matching level of difficulty, regardless of how good or bad they are. The difficulty of the content adapts to the player instead of the other way around. Thus, these games are able to reach people regardless of their skill level, whereas PvE games with a set difficulty can only cater to players skilled enough for the content or better.

Difficulty is a basic design issue of PvE games that historically has been solved by simply adding difficulty options. Sometimes you pick it when starting a new game, other time it's in the options menu. Either way, it allowed games to reach a broader audience and increase their sales. That is something MMORPG sorely lack.

The drops are part of the problem. By the time DS dropped, I didn't need the gear from it for my main class, just secondaries. And you can only "Need" on gear dropped for the class you're playing. So why go into DS on my main? Instead, I go in on a class I'm not as well geared on, and more importantly not as good/experienced with. And I know I'm not the only one. The DS run becomes "Backup-Class Hour", where people are trying to juggle the new mechanics with keeping track of what they're doing with less familiar classes.

My secondary was DRK, but DS was new and there is just one tank per party. I ran it release day as DRK and struggled, so the next few runs were as my tertiary class, DRG. Five DPS per party is far more forgiving, but I'm not a good DRG, so the raids ultimately suffered a little for it.

If everyone had reason to go into the 24-man raids on their mains, there would be far fewer headaches.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

Why do you keep believing this is just a server issue ?

I'm running on DF and it's just heartbreaking to see fully geared players; relics, raid kit and everything not even bothering to do game basics like move out of AoE or recognize a boss telegraphing.

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Indeed. I suspect it's just as disheartening to the content designers of the 4-man instances to watch similar things there. I mean why bother designing mechanics when half the active population will ignore them after running the dungeon once or twice while gearing up?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Indeed. I suspect it's just as disheartening to the content designers of the 4-man instances to watch similar things there. I mean why bother designing mechanics when half the active population will ignore them after running the dungeon once or twice while gearing up?

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Then maybe they should design content and mechanics that people CAN'T ignore and still complete the dungeon? If the mechanics doesn't really do anything, why even bother with doing them correctly, as you can just ignore them for the most part and still down the bosses without issue?

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

Then maybe they should design content and mechanics that people CAN'T ignore and still complete the dungeon? If the mechanics doesn't really do anything, why even bother with doing them correctly, as you can just ignore them for the most part and still down the bosses without issue?

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Overgearing is the largest issue with content falling away. Ideally stricter level and ilvl sync would fix that, but players whine and complain if you do that. Just as they whine and complain that content is too easy - even though the ease is due to overgearing.

I don't think I've seen even a single run of Dun Scaith where people haven't decided the best course of action is to run into AoEs, picking up DoT effects, blasting the group with a non-stack AoE and/or letting adds kill them...

Part of me wishes the 24 man raids were more challenging, but I do want them to be doable and the Duty Finder seems to be incapable of finding 23 competent people on a Data Center.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Overgearing is the largest issue with content falling away. Ideally stricter level and ilvl sync would fix that, but players whine and complain if you do that. Just as they whine and complain that content is too easy - even though the ease is due to overgearing.

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Well you really have to argue what 95% of the playerbase would do. If they don't do raids on EX Primals then once they reach the gear level of the highest dungeon at the time it would be a direct halt on vertical progression (Our only progression).

Simply making higher gear not work anymore doesn't seem like it'd be proper incentive for the bulk of players.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Well you really have to argue what 95% of the playerbase would do. If they don't do raids on EX Primals then once they reach the gear level of the highest dungeon at the time it would be a direct halt on vertical progression (Our only progression).

Simply making higher gear not work anymore doesn't seem like it'd be proper incentive for the bulk of players.

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the only difference other than look with an i90 and an i270 gear set is numbers. That's all. ilvl sync doesn't change anything except the numbers. So if you're arguing that ilvl sync discourages players with i270 gear because their gear does "not work anymore" then you're really saying that those players won't run the content because they don't see big numbers when they hit things.

I hope that the incentive to run things is other than what you suggest it is. It most certainly should be.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Overgearing is the largest issue with content falling away. Ideally stricter level and ilvl sync would fix that, but players whine and complain if you do that. Just as they whine and complain that content is too easy - even though the ease is due to overgearing.

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AOEs and mechanics instantly killing you regardless of your item level would fix that. Make mechanics which people couldn't overgear.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

AOEs and mechanics instantly killing you regardless of your item level would fix that. Make mechanics which people couldn't overgear.

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That's exactly what I mean, altho they don't have to be insta-kills either. Making them cause a debuff that makes you more or less useless for a longer period of time, would also be an incentive to proberly do mechanics. Or if you mess a mechanic up, the boss gets harder, or starts to use other mechanics.

Things like this would be alot better than just syncing gear, as let's face it. Most of the mechanics of the latest dungeons can be completly ignored even with barely enoug ilvl to enter them. They just don't do enough to feel important enough to bother with.

Well, they fixed it in Leviathan, Ramuh and Ifrit Extreme where you are forced to do mechanics even unsynched and the party wipes otherwise. Ifrit will be ignored in lv70 gear though as already tanks can survive if nails are not killed in time. So punishing damage should never be fixed because it can be ignored by more HP/overgearing.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

..all you can do is black list them, before exiting so you no longer party with them.

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Black listing only blocks you from seeing them in chat, and party via PF. It does not prevent you from being matched again in DF (as much as I wished it did).