Hi,
I play on NA/JP data centers.
How about making roulette for old raids and old extreme primals?
Many players do them unsynched (for wondrous tales usually), but there are old and new players who want to do it synched.
1. Queue time is long, even queueing as tank.
2. Not all, but some mentors (NA players in common) complain from the start of duty, and blame new players after the wipe.
3. If there are first timers more than half in the party, it is like unable to clear it. I am ok with trying many times to fail, but most of players don't want it. Some of them just leave after some wipes. (After one leave the duty, none comes for many cases. Then others should leave the duty and queue it for long time again.)
There could be some mentors want to exclude old extreme primals from mentor roulette. But I don't agree with it. Because it would be easier than just runing with new players when old raids/extreme primals roulette works.
EDIT: (I've just heard that trade mentors also can do mentor roulette. if it is true, mentor roulette shouldn't include ex primals... instead, need old raid/ex primals roulette)
[suggestion] Old raids/extreme primals roulette
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03-17-2017, 04:31 AMPink2[suggestion] Old raids/extreme primals roulette
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03-17-2017, 04:35 AMManuelBravo
Mentor Collette does Extreme primal battles, as for old raids seems now mainly with assistant of your FC or need a raid group. At least from my experience.
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03-17-2017, 04:43 AMVidu
That has been suggested several times already, but I dont really see why its needed - if you want to do those raids and primals properly you're better off without the DF, because as you pointed out correctly:
If you want to do them synched, forming a party and learning the fight is the better bet than going through DF, I'd say... a roulette wont change that. The reason the queue-times are so long is indeed because no one does them through DF, but I doubt a roulette would really change that, it would just make it even more frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
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03-17-2017, 04:52 AMPink2Yes if you are in the FC you can do it with the members, but some FC are not big enough to do them unsynched. (solo players, of course they can't get any help from the FC.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuelBravo
And.. well mentor roulette... I don't think it helps much on extremes from my experience. Some mentors are nice, and help new players to clear it. But also, there are the mentors don't help at all :/
At least, old raids/extreme primals roulette is needed on 4.x in my opinion. (3.x old raids/extreme primals would be included the roulette on 4.x) -
03-17-2017, 04:53 AMPink2I alr tried it, but df was faster than pf. thanks though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
And if the roulette has good rewards, it would help I guess. at least better than now, because ppl que it with knowing what they're queing. (mentor roulette has other duties also) -
03-17-2017, 05:19 AMViduSo, what you essiantially want is having competend people who have a good knowledge of the fights to queue for them again, so newbies can clear it in DF...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
I mean, I do see where you're coming from but I also see a lot of issues with that. You pointed out yourself that clearing several fights is very unlikely when there are lots of new people who dont know the fight - a roulette wont fix that either. We also have fairly simple trials and raids and more difficult ones. Clearing T1 or Shiva EX in DF isnt (or at least wasnt) to difficult, even with new people - but compare that to fights like T13 (that kinda requires a certain set-up, or at least used to, when done synched) or Ramuh (a primal that requires great amount of coordination).
I could actually see a LOT of people bailing on the more difficult trials, because a 30 minute lockout will still be shorter than trying T13 with two scholars and three dragoons.
I also dont understand your point about "people knowing what they're queuing for"?
To unlock your mentor roulette you must have cleared all those fights - that would be the same for the EX-trials roulette, I assume? Neither ensures that that person actually knows all the fights inside out - after all they could have cleared them unsyched aswell, so I dont see your point?
Or did you mean that this roulette would make sure that people who are queuing for a fight did their research before? Nah... nah...
I understand that you'd like to do those fights the proper way, but I doubt a roulette will help here. Doing this the proper way means: Learning the fights all over again. Getting your clear with 7 people who know any fight already isnt "clearing it properly" either, its a carry - I dont wanna sound rude but when you say "We cant clear this fight with 4 new people" it sounds a bit as if you were hoping the DF would put you in a party with 7 experienced guys which would make any fight a piece of cake.
Doing those fights "properly" in DF will never be a real thing, I'm afraid - thats what statics are for... -
03-17-2017, 05:34 AMJunseiKeiGenerally speaking, raids and extreme primals are not pick-up-and-go friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
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03-18-2017, 09:28 PMPink2I think what you're saying is right, at least on NA data centre. I was naïve.... I thought roulette would work on NA/JP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
NA/JP players are different in many ways. When I was doing it on JP centre, ex primals' failure rate was low even df. I was like "SE should help new(and old.... not many of them though) players who want to do old raids".
When "I" want to do old raids or old extreme primals, I just queue on JP centre....(queue time is long, but that is what it is) Then, how about new players on NA centre? old players don't care about it much I guess (of course they do not have to), but SE should do... in my opinion. -
03-18-2017, 09:35 PMPink2What I meant was not that. I said I am ok with trying many times to failure..... and 7 experienced are not needed anyway. just half would be enough. (I learned it from my experienced friend, he said it is clear-able if half of the party know what to do. and I see it works on JP centre.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
(I like to play on NA centre too..... I didn't mean to blame anyone, if someone feel like that, sorry about it in advance!) -
03-18-2017, 09:43 PMPink2It is not for all. If someone don't want do it, not need to do it. I don't do all roulette when I don't want to. Rewards will bring some experienced players, and that would be enough. (I've just heard that trade mentors also can do mentor roulette. if it is true, mentor roulette shouldn't include ex primals... instead, need old raid/ex primals roulette)Quote:
Originally Posted by JunseiKei
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03-18-2017, 09:58 PMPink2what I mean is, people are knowing that they're queueing for old ex primals/old raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
when you do mentor roulette, it includes many other dungeons.... and some expect that they don't come to ex primals.
some people I met on df said, like "you can do it unsynced. why do this synced? (so I am here, via mentor roulette!)"
many people have cleared ex primals unsynched for their wondrous tales, and.... yes I have just heard that mentor roulette is unlocked to trade mentors also. it is not good to new players and trade mentors both..... now I can see why some mentors just left! -
03-19-2017, 12:18 AMViduAs far as I know the main difference is that in japan the DF is used to clear content, after you've learned it before in PF - NA (and EU) are having it the other way around. The western world just queues up for that content as soon as its unlocked, japan practice it first. So maybe a roulette like that would work in japan but not in NA/EU because of the different mindsets. And I wouldnt say one of them is better than the other one - both are valid options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
SE has given us more and more reasons to re-visit those fights: music, Khloe, carfting recipes that require drops from there - on top of the actual drops and the mounts. And at least I dont want to revisit the same old fights over and over and over again - even for the sake of new people.
I also cant see what sort of reward would be good enough for people to do that again - I cant imagine a simple tome-bonus being enough.
(Either way I really believe the way to tackle this today is the same as it was in the old days: Form a static, maybe for recent raid-content and ask them if they'd be interested in a fun night of learning old ex-primals - we did some coil-synched runs for fun once... tried T5 with minimum ilvl and failed - first because of, well failing mechanics, every try after that because we were laughing to much)
That depends on the fight and the people who are new - how much do they know about the fight? Which roles are new? How much preasure is the raid putting on those roles? Even a complete new tank could MT Titan EX, a new healer might be more in trouble. Some fights are simply easier to carry than others, so I wouldnt fully agree with your friends statment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
I also want to remind you again of the variety of difficulty those raids and trials have - I have cleared T1 countless times in DF when I was farming ARR-light. I have tried T13 once or twice around the same time - and we didnt even made it past the first phase.
And again: in japan the mentality is not to enter the DF unprepared - thats not shared in the western world.
This actually correspond well with my point of huge diffculty variety between the raids and trials!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink2
I also dont support your idea that the problem is having these in the mentor roulette - yes, you might hope for a guildhest when queueing up for that, but you know you can end up with an ex-primal. The problem here isnt the mentors, its the people who know nothing about the fight - and that 60 minutes arent enough to teach. And that it gets REALLY frustrating to see people making the same mistake over and over again even though you explained it.
I've done Garuda EX through DF a LOT and people kept killing spiny - despite marking it with "ignore" and telling them over and over again not to.
I've failed Ultima HM because the other tank didnt had provoke unlocked.
I've seen people in Shiva not understanding what "Stack behind her" mean.
I've done GKMM EX in DF and struggled to convince a bunch of germans after two wipes that no, this isnt like HM and that you really, really dont want to kill any of the moggles until all of them are low in health and that there isnt a kill-order like in HM.
I've tried Ramuh EX and I still have the macros I used to let people know when to collect orbs - and even with those I may or may not have destroyed a keyboard over that fight...
I've already mentioned how GREAT T13 was...
I'm not enterily against a roulette like that - but I doubt that it will really help. And looking at what your friend said - about how you need 4 experienced people and the rest can be new - it sounds a lot like a carry. How is that different from doing this content syched? Oh cool, you've seen the whole fight now and it took 10 minutes instead of 3, grats! You still have no idea how mechanics work because the first of Titans landslides send you flying, Levithan knocked you of the boat as soon as he could and your party in T9 asked you to run into a wall so you wont get into the way after you caused the first wipe.
I understand that you want to learn those fights and see them the proper way, but again: I dont think DF was, is or ever will be the real solution for that - wether you have a roulette that makes people bail on Ramuh because its well, Ramuh, and not Shiva or not.
Want to learn this fights? Form a party of your own! Wether its with friends or through PF!
How do you think all the experienced people learned how to do them?
The old EX-primals are, well, old - if you want a challenge, there are new ones. New raids. So doing the old ones sychned doesnt seem to harmful to me - and if you dont want to do that... I'll only repeat myself here.
The problem is not that there isnt enough incentive to queue for those, the problem is that at least in the western world DF isnt the way to go for EX-primals