What is kickable in df for different playstyles?

this is just a ponder and a bit of curiosity over what people think is kickable in df under different playstyles a simple yes no or any added 'differences in playstyles' just as a helpful reminder in case i overstep bounds.

- no tank/dps stances
- no cleric stance
- using cleric stance
- no songs/turrets
- using songs/turrets (whether necessary or not)
- mixing glamour
- no melds
- having bad melds
- only aoeing
- only single target
- taking a piece of gear someone asked for
- taking a piece of gear no one asked for
- being a job no one liked
- not doing mechanics
- not doing mechanics optimally
- doing the mechanics properly

If all are a yes i'm gunna have a hard time stealing anything as a mentor ;_;

This is going to be a trend huh

Honestly, anything is kickable. Would you believe me if I told you that someone once told me (after not responding to him) if he could vote kick from the start players who did not say Hello, he would?

It all depend on the group but everything can be considered different play style even down to tattoos, hair style, eye color and items you listed above and others not mentioned.

Technically anything.

It's probably a bit more fruitful to gather cases where GMs actually have deemed a kick unjustified and inflicted a penalty on the respective person. At least you can then tell what is "not" counted under it.

Like people said, technically anything. If a vote goes through, it means majority aproved and you and/or your playstyle don't match nor belong there, and you would be better off trying a different party. Specially if they ask you to stop doing whatever but you keep doing it like someone in another thread.

Technically anything as long as you don't say in game that you're specifically kicking to get someone else in.

I can repose the GMs answers on this yet again but...

The only reason they have said that is invalid for kicking someone is specifically to disrupt their completion of the duty (i.e. griefing).

For virtually any other reason, you can kick them. Point by point:

- no tank/dps stances definitely can kick
- no cleric stance definitely can kick
- using cleric stance definitely can kick
- no songs/turrets definitely can kick
- using songs/turrets (whether necessary or not) definitely can kick
- mixing glamour a stretch, but perceiving language as offensive is a valid reason, so theoretically...
- no melds definitely can kick
- having bad melds definitely can kick
- only aoeing definitely can kick
- only single target definitely can kick
- taking a piece of gear someone asked for can kick IF you don't try to do it before the loot window has closed. Trying to stop someone from rolling on loot after completing a fight can be classed as grief tactics.
- taking a piece of gear no one asked for a stretch, but see above. Theoretical reasoning could be needing on gear under your current slot's ilvl.
- being a job no one liked a stretch, but no job crystal at 30+ is valid. I, personally, would not risk a GM's ire for kicking a sprout, however.
- not doing mechanics definitely can kick
- not doing mechanics optimally definitely can kick
- doing the mechanics properly definitely can kick

Lastly, it's worth noting that a fair bit is up to GM discretion. If they feel you're being abusive (i.e. chain kicking people for some of the more obscure reasons listed), you might still find yourself in hot water. However, the more common ones (i.e. kicking someone for using or not using cleric, for doing an optimized/unoptimized rotation, or anything where casual and minmax playstyles are likely to clash) are likely the safest.

But the official response is playstyle differences are a valid reason to kick. Griefing people (by the GM's perception, not yours) is not a valid reason.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Lastly, it's worth noting that a fair bit is up to GM discretion. If they feel you're being abusive (i.e. chain kicking people for some of the more obscure reasons listed), you might still find yourself in hot water.

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I've never seen evidence this has been enforced. And how could it be?

You have a group of four. One gets booted. Lets just say it was for something heinous blatant ToS violation and crude. The act was a right click and vote dismiss. Followed by 2 others pressing agree. First up, the victim needs to make a report. Who do they report? You don't get to see who initiated the vote. So do they report the whole party, or who they 'think' initiated the vote?

GM reads it. How do they go about this? Punish all three members? I mean you bring up a good point. Habitual vote kickers might get action. But I have to ask this. Do we seriously have a running tally of who we vote kicked alongside all of those who made a report? That's a stretch.

In reality what probably happens is a GM looks at the chat log from the duty and sees if there is anything said that is a TOS violation. Unless people are cursing at one another. There's likely not going to be anything except two players having a disagreement. In which case the GM will determine the 'victim' of the report was kicked to end the argument, a valid reason for vote kick.

With that said, do NOT rely on GM reports to get justice for being kicked for a reason that is wrong. Its been this way since games introduced a vote kick feature.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I've never seen evidence this has been enforced. And how could it be?

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And you never will, because GMs do not share punishments they hand out.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

With that said, do NOT rely on GM reports to get justice for being kicked for a reason that is wrong. Its been this way since games introduced a vote kick feature.

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From the GM side I don't think the point is to get justice, but to make the affected person think they will get justice.

Anyone who sent a report will probably feel better after being told "it will be investigated and if a violation is found proper actions will be taken" even if they never know the outcome of that, and making people feel better is good for player retention.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

From the GM side I don't think the point is to get justice, but to make the affected person think they will get justice.

Anyone who sent a report will probably feel better after being told "it will be investigated and if a violation is found proper actions will be taken" even if they never know the outcome of that, and making people feel better is good for player retention.

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That's kind of the point I was getting across. Its a feel-good white lie. But dishonest. I don't like dishonesty. Its contrary to integrity.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

woosh

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You can't actually start a kick while there's loot in the pool. Facepalmed at the rest of your post, but felt you should know that.

it is up to the GM to decide if a kick was a difference in play style. You can report any vote kick you feel like was abuse, and gm pick if it was or wasn't.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

it is up to the GM to decide if a kick was a difference in play style. You can report any vote kick you feel like was abuse, and gm pick if it was or wasn't.

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You can also not waste a GM's time if you get kicked after being told to play differently when nothing else is being given as a reason for the kick and you have no evidence to support any other reason.

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Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

Like people said, technically anything. If a vote goes through, it means majority aproved and you and/or your playstyle don't match nor belong there, and you would be better off trying a different party. Specially if they ask you to stop doing whatever but you keep doing it like someone in another thread.

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This is why I wish they'd start doing 5 man dungeons. Right now if 2 people disagree with 2 people, whoever starts the kick first wins. If nothing else the person who is being voted against should be counted as a No just as the person who starts the vote is counted as a Yes, so we can move past this silly way of voting.

I just want to start off by saying I have never initiated a kick on anyone nor have I ever been kicked from an instance. Any vote kick I have approved is usually over a player disconnecting and not coming back. I really have to say that these kinds of posts just baffle me. Is kicking people for a difference in "play style" such a huge thing?! People may get angry with me for saying this but if a person finds themselves being kicked a lot then there really might be something wrong with how they are playing and vice versa. Maybe they don't even realize the mistake they are making and unfortunately many are unwilling to explain better tactics. If you find yourself initiating kicks an awful lot maybe take a step back and ask yourself if you are being too picky.

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Originally Posted by LuckiGoLucki

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Not everyone is as lucky as you are, so using your experience as the baseline to judge everyone else's is a bad idea. You are not everyone. I've been put into DF groups with 3 man premades intent on trolling the unlucky person they went in with. I had a healer in Halatali once who had Provoke cross classed and constantly provoked mobs off me and pulled mobs ahead and died on purpose. After 30 minutes of slowly inching toward the last boss, they kicked me and I'm guessing did it without a tank, essentially wasting half an hour of my life.

I've had enough bad experiences like this to change my mind from this being one of the best communities to it being one of the worst I've been a part of. So I'm glad you're luckier than me, but don't discredit other people's opposite experiences.

When I start vote kicks, it's usually for AFKs, offline people who don't come back after 10 minutes or so, and people who are playing terribly when I'm not in the mood for it and I'm convinced my party isn't either.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've been put into DF groups with 3 man premades intent on trolling the unlucky person they went in with.

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I was in one, it was the Antitower, where we entered, the other three were obviously together chatting from the start. I was smn and the healer said after tank pulled, "I gotta take a sh--, Mica you heal while I'm gone. It's gonna be awhile, I had indian food for dinner" for real this happened.

Obviously I didn't heal, my little smn heals are going to do nothing. I got vote kicked there after some colorful language and emotes from the tank and the other dps. Luckily it was, of course, in the log and I had a nice chat with the GM afterward. I could almost see them shaking their head with their jaw hanging open.

In most cases of a vote kick that I have personally seen for playstyle reasons, it's things like smns who refuse to use dots, brds who don't sing, healers who don't dps and do not even draw their weapon for multiple pulls and in the case of sch set eos and stand idle. Tanks who don't use stances or cooldowns, blms who refuse to use fire or use ice-fire-ice-fire rotations. Things such as that. Usually we talk to them beforehand and try to nicely give them tips, but if they get an attitude or use the "it's my sub" argument. Boot.

theoretical anything that doesn't agree with your opinion/thoughts/mindset is or can be seen as different play style. Someone wearing lets say blue glamour and you're hating that color (assuming you're not colorblind) could "offend" you and your play style. The question is just how far do you want to go with that? Some things just in real life do need some level of tolerance and acceptance. You can't just remove people because you wanted to play the game solo in first place. So it's a "hot" and difficult topic to discuss, because what might not "offend" you or is against your play style might be totally different for other people and their perspectives. Any kick you're issuing can be "reasoned" with when asked. That still doesn't give you a free card but it's damn close quite frankly and it's sad to see, that nowadays, people always find one or more reasons, to remove players from the party for something we would have seen as no big deal a couple years ago.

Different playstyles are merely "I don't like it for whatever reasons".

IMO, being unreasonable bad at your job is a reason to kick.

I had a SMN once in Gubal Library HM, no pet out, was spamming miasma, Bio and Bio II, and by spamming I mean he out them up, and them out them up immediately again. never used aetherflow which meant no Fester or Bane.

He was unreasonably bad at his job to the point where he could have possibly been trolling. Our party agreed to kick him.
I consider kicking BLMs as well that don't even attempt a rotation and rather used things like Flare at full MP in Umbral Ice stance, sitting there in fire until their MP naturally ticks up for a Blizzard III.

There is zero reason anyone should have to tolerate that.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

IMO, being unreasonable bad at your job is a reason to kick.

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We have confirmation from SE that "refusal to fulfill one's role" is valid.

And how do you compare that to "unable to fulfill one's role"? IMO that's worse. Refusal can be coerced; I've had times I've threatened to kick people for not playing properly, gotten others to chime in that they'd agree with the kick, and had the offending player change their mind.

But someone flat out unable to? It's like people with full broken gear mid-dungeon; you can't convince them to suddenly have stats again.

tl;dr if "refusal to fulfill one's role" is acceptable it follows that inability to do the same is also acceptable

I only vote kick for disconnects or long AKFs. Clearly from the forums others have more extensive criteria.... which is strange since I never met anyone in game like the people you find on here. Lucky I guess.

unfortunately i know all too well alot of things can be kickable under the current rules, i have been kicked for putting cleric on went through i got mad told friends and moved on the only times i have ever reported someone have been 1. in potd because we were 4 dps 1 member refused to move saying just abandon not possisble this ofc prevented us from procedding to a point of after 15 mins me and the other 2 members HAD to leave and restart the instance. the 2nd was a difference in lifestyle choices i.e. met people who were not that accepting and a bad misstype in the wrong chat and foul language later dismissed. A vote kick from me though is done after waiting 5 to 10 mins depending if said anything or a sudden dc after being fine for awhile, rude/inappropriate language for a extended period of time and flat out refusal to change their ways when asked multiple times.

The only times i vote kick is from ARK/Disconnects or is someone is being a complete and utter nuisance to the entire party.
Most recent was a THM who refused to use anything other than Fire 1 throughout the whole dungeon

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You can't actually start a kick while there's loot in the pool. Facepalmed at the rest of your post, but felt you should know that.

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The scenario where this might happen is after a fight has completed but before a chest was opened. And facepalm all you like, it's how the SE's policy is.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Not everyone is as lucky as you are, so using your experience as the baseline to judge everyone else's is a bad idea. You are not everyone. So I'm glad you're luckier than me, but don't discredit other people's opposite experiences.

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Ok so at no point was I judging anyone or discrediting anyone's experiences. Calm down there. I was asking the general community about how often this actually goes on. Peeps come in here on the forums constantly complaining that they are being kicked all the time. I'm trying to figure out why. Which is why I was suggesting that maybe just maaaaaaybe there is something wrong with how they are handling the dungeon or playing their class. And I even mentioned that there are people who kick others too much for dumb reasons. I think you need to learn what "judging" and "discrediting" actually mean. I'm not saying these things don't happen, I'm trying to get the community to ask "why are they happening".

I mean, "different playstyles" is so incredibly vague it could be used to justify virtually anything. Having said that, I don't think anyone should be kicked unless they're AFK or DC'd for an excessive period of time, harassing one or more group members in some fashion, or doing something so poorly that it's actually preventing successful completion of the content. Part of the draw of this game for a lot of people is the relatively friendly and positive community, and it takes all of us to keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

this is just a ponder and a bit of curiosity over what people think is kickable in df under different playstyles a simple yes no or any added 'differences in playstyles' just as a helpful reminder in case i overstep bounds.

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Literally anything. Don't even breath.

It's a touchy subject pretty much anything that seems like trolling or anything that majority rules. As a Mentor is more of people being disruptive, crap talkers, people purposely hindering runs, or unwilling to co operate. I personally, if I see t hey are a sprout or a flower give them a chance to improve...third strike they are out.