Zurvan EX - Warriors

So, I started this new account last november and decided to main Warrior, since I never tanked in FFXIV before. Farmed all the birds, except for Zurvan's one, so today I decided to try it, since I had the day off.

I managed to clear it and got 9 totems in the first farm party of the day. I thought it was going to be easy, but then for the whole day, I couldn't get another single totem.

After so many parties, I can tell that a lot of people are having trouble with this , even in the so called farm parties. Most PF states that they want to skip SOAR, being very salty when we don't do it, and just ragequits after one failed attempt. To make things even worse, I'm seeing a new trend of people not wanting Warriors, because we are not able to cheese the Claw mechanic, because Holmgang lasts just 6 seconds and is not enough time, counting from start of the stun to the actual boss damage.

Is there any chance the devs. will tune this fight? Seems very badly designed imo. Has this happened before?

Thanks all.

Obs: I just had a very bad experience with one party. Did everything correctly, no mistakes, good damage as a Warrior, but the party could not Skip the first SOAR. We nabaged to get to the second one anyway, I used the tank LB since in the first one they didn't go too well and managed to save a couple people. Then got hit by Claw and died because no one soaked it. Then the first comment is from a MNK "Can we not have a Warrior?". This kind of stuff just turns me away from the game.

For almost all of Alexander Savage this has been the Paladin situation. Because of the fact it's mostly magical damage the paladin has always been considered inferior.

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Originally Posted by Voltres

Is there any chance the devs. will tune this fight? Seems very badly designed imo.

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It has nothing to do with the fight being badly designed, it has to do with way too much of the player base being bad and not wanting to take the time and effort to get better.

Soar isn't a hard mechanic if you just look up a diagram and know what to do, but farm groups insist on skipping the first Soar because if they don't, people will probably die. This is also why almost everyone needs to tank LB second Soar.

It's the same reason people prefer non-WAR tanks, because without an off tank or a BLM to use their physical shield then the first person to help soak up Claw will die.

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Originally Posted by Gokuhan

It has nothing to do with the fight being badly designed, it has to do with way too much of the player base being bad and not wanting to take the time and effort to get better.

Soar isn't a hard mechanic if you just look up a diagram and know what to do, but farm groups insist on skipping the first Soar because if they don't, people will probably die. This is also why almost everyone needs to tank LB second Soar.

It's the same reason people prefer non-WAR tanks, because without an off tank or a BLM to use their physical shield then the first person to help soak up Claw will die.

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Yes, I agree partially with you, but the bad design I was mentioning is that the devs. did not realize that the playerbase was going to go this way. They just want to cheese the whole fight and now Warriors are starting to get excluded because we cannot cheese the claw mechanic which is very simple, with like 10-15 seconds to prepare for it's damage.

the fight isn't badly designed just everyone trying to cheese the mechanics from day one because people who are geared for it said so so everyone follows suit. just blame your fellow players for going along with it and keep trying. All fights have mechanics that can be skipped with high dps its a way to rewards parties that do that kind of damage

Warrior main here. Cleared the fight with my static as a DRG because that was how we expected to farm it. Ended up farming it as off healer and our off healer went in as MNK. To this day I haven't cleared Zurvan as a warrior, though I've farmed it as DRG, AST, WHM, and DRK. Most groups don't want to double tank it, and if you're solo tanking, most groups don't want that tank to be a warrior.

The few groups I did clear/farm with a warrior (and me healing) were actually some of the best groups, nailing mechanics consistently.

The player base meta on this fight is very anti Warrior for quick cheesy farm purposes. /shrug We're really well positioned in raiding endgame aside from this one primal.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Warrior main here. Cleared the fight with my static as a DRG because that was how we expected to farm it. Ended up farming it as off healer and our off healer went in as MNK. To this day I haven't cleared Zurvan as a warrior, though I've farmed it as DRG, AST, WHM, and DRK. Most groups don't want to double tank it, and if you're solo tanking, most groups don't want that tank to be a warrior.

The few groups I did clear/farm with a warrior (and me healing) were actually some of the best groups, nailing mechanics consistently.

The player base meta on this fight is very anti Warrior for quick cheesy farm purposes. /shrug We're really well positioned in raiding endgame aside from this one primal.

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I do think Warrior is the best tank for Zurvan EX, but it requires people to know what they are doing, but it's just not the case as people still fail on Southern Cross across the farm parties. Thanks for your comment.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

the fight isn't badly designed just everyone trying to cheese the mechanics from day one because people who are geared for it said so so everyone follows suit. just blame your fellow players for going along with it and keep trying. All fights have mechanics that can be skipped with high dps its a way to rewards parties that do that kind of damage

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Why should we fault the playerbase though? Of all the EX Primals throughout Heavensward, Zurvan is by far the easiest to exploit. The only real requirement to skip Soar is knowing how to execute a proper opener. Frankly speaking, you have no business attempting EX Primals if you can't do that, and certainly not in farm parties. Adding to the problem, there is literally no reason to bring a second tank. At no point in the fight are swaps necessary and despite how hard the Wills hit, there isn't any additional outgoing damage. Thus, two healers have only one person to heal. Hardly a difficult task. People farming content aim for efficiency because they'll likely be repeating the fight several times. Had the first Soar not been skipable and there was an actual need for two tanks, we wouldn't have this issue.

I wish the claw was not cheesable and would give a debuff to the MT, so another tank would be required. This would stop most of the cheese going on. There can be many other alternatives, but the current state of the fight is just not good.

I have felt this way in Alex Savage as pally. Que in rf and load in, get kicked for being pally. Join a pf, get kicked for being pally. I'm super turned off from doing Alex savage because of it. I'm il255, it's ridiculous I feel but what can I do? So I've focused on other content

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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You blame the player base because they decided that they wanna go in with one tank and focus their entire tactic on skipping soar and not learning how to do it. and demon claw is why you need two tanks and hence why people dont wanna sue a warrior it cant do the 1 tank tatic all too well it require s a bunch of other stuff to work.

the soar skip requires two things gear and the ability to do your opener not everyone has the gear and by gear i mean nearing Bis not just loading up shire gear

if that kind of stuff turns you away of the game pray thanks you dont choose to come and play paladin at the begining of the expansion, for the only fight in all the game where WARs are kick out by the "optimal" set up for a farm by players i dont think is a big deal.

think is a great chance to try to mastering PLD or DRK to have a second main tank just for case like this, after all we can play and equip all tanks at the same time excep weapon.

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Originally Posted by shao32

if that kind of stuff turns you away of the game pray thanks you dont choose to come and play paladin at the begining of the expansion, for the only fight in all the game where WARs are kick out by the "optimal" set up for a farm by players i dont think is a big deal.

think is a great chance to try to mastering PLD or DRK to have a second main tank just for case like this, after all we can play and equip all tanks at the same time excep weapon.

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Yeah, I guess I'll look at it in this way. I'm already leveling my paladin. Stopped at 34 because of Awareness. Still would prefer to no have to level a new class for a single fight.

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Originally Posted by Voltres

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The mechanic is to simply soak it as a party with an OT taking the full brunt of the hit, much like Thordan's Reign. It has nothing to do with badly designed, just players wanting to enforce pumping out DPS to skip mechanics. Just as people want to skip soar, despite the mechanic being painfully easy.

If you have a warrior as the only tank, designate someone to soak it first- preferably a class with mitigation tools (BLM, DRG, MNK, NIN). When I'm stuck there on ninja, I ask a shield healer to give me shield, another for stoneskin and pop shade shift. Usually, I can survive with just shade shift and full HP, but the rest gives me ample margin for error (shield was late, stoneskin was late, HP not topped off, etc). I've seen a dragoon pop foresight and keen flurry as well as monks pop fist of earth. If storm's path is up, should be fine.

Maybe 4.0 will see a return of hard enrages before certain primal skills are triggered and the HP threshold is below a certain amount.

Pretty sure it's magic dmg but yea I've done it with warrior heaps of times
1) get knocked into wall and die right as the aoe starts - healer can res you and you will be up before mech finishes. Boss should be nearly dead so weakness doesn't matter
2) for crap dps groups just ask monk or blm or anyone+mitigation to be in the front. , with everyone in the line too

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Pretty sure it's magic dmg but yea I've done it with warrior heaps of times

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Interesting, if it really is magic damage, then I've seen a ton of people just eat it and live without buffs for its type. Makes it all the more humiliating to wiping to that mechanic simply because of a warrior tank.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You blame the player base because they decided that they wanna go in with one tank and focus their entire tactic on skipping soar and not learning how to do it. and demon claw is why you need two tanks and hence why people dont wanna sue a warrior it cant do the 1 tank tatic all too well it require s a bunch of other stuff to work.

the soar skip requires two things gear and the ability to do your opener not everyone has the gear and by gear i mean nearing Bis not just loading up shire gear

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How are they forced? If you dislike the group demands, you are free to leave and create your own party. The single tank strategy is a byproduct of the second tank having literally nothing to do. It isn't even pushing higher DPS. There just isn't any need for two tanks. Why bring two tanks for a mechanic you can simply Hallowed Ground through? Again, farm parties are all about efficiency.

And not at all. You need nowhere close to BiS for pushing Soar, especially seeing most groups take five DPS.

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Originally Posted by Voltres

I wish the claw was not cheesable and would give a debuff to the MT, so another tank would be required. This would stop most of the cheese going on. There can be many other alternatives, but the current state of the fight is just not good.

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I'll agree with you there. I mean Nidhogg had 3 tank swaps (usually the Falak, the dragoon form with the blue tethers, and Bitter Hate during final form).

Heck, even the other HW EX primals had situations where more than 1 tank is pretty much needed. Examples:
Bismarck - The different colored Sanuwas
Thordan - The Paladins; Spear of the Fury
Sephirot - Big and small adds; Towers when the debuffs aren't up (especially during 3.2 when people weren't overgeared )
Sophia - The lightning damage debuff from tankbuster, especially if not overgeared

I'd say Ravana during Final Liberation when it was relevant too, but people tend to skip that since 3.1 if DPS was high enough anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How are they forced? If you dislike the group demands, you are free to leave and create your own party. The single tank strategy is a byproduct of the second tank having literally nothing to do. It isn't even pushing higher DPS. There just isn't any need for two tanks. Why bring two tanks for a mechanic you can simply Hallowed Ground through? Again, farm parties are all about efficiency.

And not at all. You need nowhere close to BiS for pushing Soar, especially seeing most groups take five DPS.

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It is forced whens the last time you saw a zurvan learning clear or farm party that has two tanks in it. i'll answer that for you never from day one every single party has been going in with 5 dps.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People farming content aim for efficiency because they'll likely be repeating the fight several times.

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If they were genuinely aiming for efficiency, they would not be wasting the LB on the second Soar. It gives no additional uptime since Zurvan is not targetable during it, so they are in fact doing the fight less efficiently because they are too lazy to learn a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

It is forced whens the last time you saw a zurvan learning clear or farm party that has two tanks in it. i'll answer that for you never from day one every single party has been going in with 5 dps.

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Because Zurvan is so easily exploitable. People will always following the path of least resistance. You don't blame the playerbase because they found an effective way of cheesing your fight. You might it so they can't cheese the fight to begin with. Random groups aren't obliged to clear content the way you fancy. If they insist on skipping Soar and bringing a single tank, then your option is to leave their party.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

If they were genuinely aiming for efficiency, they would not be wasting the LB on the second Soar. It gives no additional uptime since Zurvan is not targetable during it, so they are in fact doing the fight less efficiently because they are too lazy to learn a mechanic.

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Efficiency does not necessarily mean damage. Since you have no idea how random people will perform, tank LBing Soar eliminates potential failure when the fight is near over. Assuming your damage output is decent, Zurvan dies fast enough it doesn't even matter.

Its ppl being lazy, that is all. I main WHM and i have even seen clear and farm groups asking specifically in their pf for SCH and AST healers leaving WHM behind.
First time i noticed this i wasnt understand why couldnt join a Group. Kept pressing the button and wouldnt Work, checked gear... 2 positions opened for healers... Then i noticed ️️that they were asking for specific jobs. In 3 cases ive noticed, Ast and SCH composition...

I would agree that the fight is badly tuned, the Soar skip being at 75% as opposed to 70% or 80% has made this rift in the community of where if people don't skip Soar, it's an automatic disband for the majority of cases.

I think it's a horrible fight, both cosmetically and mechanically. I've seen people fighting over wrongly drawn graphs, positions, party composition, dps, and even not having discord. It's not even enjoyable anymore to go into that fight because 90% of the time it's going to break down, and that's both the community and the development teams fault to bear.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

It is forced whens the last time you saw a zurvan learning clear or farm party that has two tanks in it. i'll answer that for you never from day one every single party has been going in with 5 dps.

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I actually see a fair number of 2 tank parties, typically because they want to do Claw the normal way, or they want to cheese it with the Cover method which reuires a Paladin to be Off-tanking. As a Warrior I've gotten into a few of these parties, and every single one sees two Soars before 75% and doesn't clear adds.

So yeah, it happens. They never clear, but it happens.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

It is forced whens the last time you saw a zurvan learning clear or farm party that has two tanks in it. i'll answer that for you never from day one every single party has been going in with 5 dps.

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I got my Zurvan Ex clear in a two tank party well after week 1. I still see two tank learning/clear parties going up on Primal. Also the occasional farm with a second tank/dps slot set.
It can't hurt to put up a two tank party and see if it fills.

I agree that Zurvan EX is poorly designed. While the fight mechanics themselves are good, the phasepushing you can do in there is crazy and it's created a terrible environment for pug groups. I consider Soar skips to be a very nice bonus, but not something to be mandated. Everyone should be able to handle all mechanics in a fight, regardless of if they'll be seen or not. That includes Demon Claw, by the way - as a WAR main myself, I don't understand why people have such a thing for cheesing it when it isn't even that lethal.

Actually, I'd argue that 3.5 in general felt very rushed, considering all the issues and emergency maintenance we've had since it launched.

Soar isn't hard, nor is Demon Claw.

I would rather them allow Demon Claw to bypass Living Dead/Hallowed Ground than to allow Holmgang to cheese it as well. Mechanics being cheesed makes fights boring.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Soar isn't hard, nor is Demon Claw.

I would rather them allow Demon Claw to bypass Living Dead/Hallowed Ground than to allow Holmgang to cheese it as well. Mechanics being cheesed makes fights boring.

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I agree with you. The mechanic is really easy, there is no need to skip it.