More Customize Skill

They should let us customize our skill for bloodstorm like they have for pvp. Put points into skill to enchance it with limit of 20 points, like put a point into berserk to negate pracify.

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

YES PLZ....cough um I mean I agree heavily, indeed.

And with this "customization" would come with more requirements by the majority of players.

And then they have to tune content for every possible option, meaning if people put points into whatever gives them more dps, then the people who put points into utility or defense wont be able to complete the content, or the content will be too easy for the dps point users.

Similar to how SE gave us 35 stat points to allocate wherever we want...the illusion of choice is strong in this game :)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And then they have to tune content for every possible option, meaning if people put points into whatever gives them more dps, then the people who put points into utility or defense wont be able to complete the content, or the content will be too easy for the dps point users.

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I can see problem with tanks going with dps skill vs defensive skill enchancement, or healing vs dps with healer, but dpe should be very str8 forward.

I would be for it, but I feel they would have to be so subtle that it almost wouldn't be worth it. Like say as a healer choosing between Regen having slightly more potency or an extra 6 secs of duration. However in the end as someone stated people would crunch the numbers (just look at BLM and that wall of math people pull out) to find what is the best. Sure if your not looking for end game raids or only play with friends I would welcome it with open arms to have my Regens last an extra 12secs or be a lot stronger (and maybe more MP?) to be unique but then if I were to get into raid groups they would eye me down and shun those who did not conform to the optimal choice.

The last thing we need in this game is more false choice. Cross class abilities are already bad with this.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

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I seriously have to wonder how many of the people saying this have actually done any fight by fight theory-crafting for themselves. I've consistently outperformed others at equal or higher item/gear levels when using so-called "non-optimal" or "shit" specs.

EDIT: (And I don't just mean that I was a better player than them. In fact, that was rarely the case. But by crafting a slightly more personally attuned spec, I had more control over how I could react to mechanics, could better stretch my ability to capitalize on opportunities or be less disadvantaged by deadzones, etc., generating greater total dps over the length of a fight or putting out higher dps on key targets than my higher theoretical dps contemporaries (each playing about as best as theoretically possible). Moreover, by crafting that spec myself, I knew what adaptations I'd have to make, at what points, in what compositions or conditions, and to what degree.)

The issue with PvE customization isn't even necessarily the effort to balance it. It's primarily the distance for the majority of the community between those choices and the actual maths behind them, and/or the adaptations possible to support them for a higher total raid dps.
It's not the "elitist jerks" that make customization all for naught. It's the ones who cannot so much as imagine an adaptation of playstyle that's not detailed out step by step, priority by priority, on a forum page written by someone seemingly authoritative.

na I believe this would open up more playstyle for each class, like for blm ice skill that increase their dps under umbra ice.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

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I thought about this....I guess it's just an MMO thing. The reason why Yoshi says "too hard to balance". But it sure does make things dull when there is only one right way to do everything. I'd prefer the illusion of choice at least....

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

I thought about this....I guess it's just an MMO thing. The reason why Yoshi says "too hard to balance". But it sure does make things dull when there is only one right way to do everything. I'd prefer the illusion of choice at least....

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It is an MMO thing, because we expect our allies to play at their best.

In a single-player game, it doesn't matter if I spec Speechcraft for a fight with a dragon. I'm the only one dealing with the consequences. But, in a cooperative game, everyone needs to play at their best with the best setup they can. Doing otherwise is simply disrespectful to the time and effort of your teammates.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

na I believe this would open up more playstyle for each class, like for blm ice skill that increase their dps under umbra ice.

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Whats the tradeoff then? This would be optimal, as they would never run out of mp.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Whats the tradeoff then? This would be optimal, as they would never run out of mp.

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trade off would be they could have enchance other dps skills instead.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

trade off would be they could have enchance other dps skills instead.

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To do what? Add MP regeneration? Then its just the same thing as before, but flopped. No real customization.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

To do what? Add MP regeneration? Then its just the same thing as before, but flopped. No real customization.

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they could spent it on fire to reduce mp, or new thunder spec. Remember u have limited amount of points and each skills can take 1-5 point to enchances it.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

they could spent it on fire to reduce mp, or new thunder spec. Remember u have limited amount of points and each skills can take 1-5 point to enchances it.

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You are missing the point: whatever you could make, there is a best option for DPS. And that means there is only one option.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

they could spent it on fire to reduce mp, or new thunder spec. Remember u have limited amount of points and each skills can take 1-5 point to enchances it.

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They'd essentially have to redo blackmage for that to work. And then people would just find whatever setup is optimal, and you would go from having a rotation to just spamming a skill.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

they could spent it on fire to reduce mp, or new thunder spec. Remember u have limited amount of points and each skills can take 1-5 point to enchances it.

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Okay, so... people who want to be useless and persist their Umbral stance now are less useless?

If the net worth of MP cost for this fire skill actually lets you dish out another spell under your rotation there'd be no comparison. But if anything less than all those points goes into the fire stat to reduce enough MP, than it will be useless. Something like that is all or none. If the damage increase from the ice skill is higher than you're going to put those points in there then, that's an option where there'slive scaling rather than threshold, unlike the MP reduction.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You are missing the point: whatever you could make, there is a best option for DPS. And that means there is only one option.

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I would have to disagree with u, its would depend on ur party comp, u can customize for best personal dps, or spec that would increase the dps of overall party. Depending on ur party set up u can enchance ur personal dps, and not spec into skill that benefit a class thats not in ur party.

Certainly could be a lot of "bad" choices in customized options but for casual situations your options are easily drastically increased, and of course narrowed down in end game situations.. but even there you can still have SOME options. WoW has done this, to better and worse extents depending on patch and job you're talking about but at least two viable options for most jobs.

Diablo 3 I think would be a bit better for the "casual" vs "end" choices. Casually you can build whatever you want and its quite cool, of course end game you're looking at like two to three builds tops lol.

That said I can see SE having trouble offering every class multiple paths that are both viable and interesting for all jobs, since they have and will have so many. Perhaps it would be easier to add gear with neat affixes instead, double attack, TP reduction, stuff like that. Would need to change the gear ladder a little bit though.

Anyway, more options does not = 100% false choice. Stats however are pretty pointless as is, minus being forced to sacrifice or reset for Sch/Smn (which is a horrible argument to keep the stat system imo, need to revamp or remove).

I think for blackmage (and maybe all classes) it would have to be a universal set for main skills. Like for Blackmage, you could choose a buff to potency for Ice (tho fire being far superior still) or you can increase the duration of your Umbral/Astral by say...3 secs? One would be good for learning (or casual mages I guess) while the Ice buff would be basically what we have now but stronger ice skills. Same with healers and more potency vs longer ticks for HoT. Maybe some DPS could increase the time Dots stay on vs say Huton/Greased Lightning having increased timers. Just a lot they could do with it but ultimately in the end sounds like a balance nightmare for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I seriously have to wonder how many of the people saying this have actually done any fight by fight theory-crafting for themselves. I've consistently outperformed others at equal or higher item/gear levels when using so-called "non-optimal" or "shit" specs.

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Optimization does not inherently mean people will perform their job better. You can take all your stat point on Bard, toss them into STR and still blow someone away if their rotation sucks. Stats only account for so much at the moment. If they ever moved towards a skill tree system, those stats become significantly more important since it could impact things like say, making Blood for Blood have additional damage increased for less defense. If a change like that proves to be "the best" in terms of overall risk/gain, you will be expected to take it. We're already seeing it with the current meta widely shunning White Mage, Paladin and Monk. When the buffs to Astro came, White Mage clears dropped nearly 50%. That's the raid community tossing it aside because Astro is simply a better White Mage now.

In Tera online we have special glyphs, which can change the skills. And you know what? The system works and it is very nice in Tera

So, I like the idea, maybe SE will create something here

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Originally Posted by Xyno

In Tera online we have special glyphs, which can change the skills. And you know what? The system works and it is very nice in Tera

So, I like the idea, maybe SE will create something here

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Okay, but how in tune with the endgame meta are you? I remember being blown away by WoW's Talents and Glyphs. And then I actually learned how to play properly and learned there were like 2 builds tops.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Okay, but how in tune with the endgame meta are you? I remember being blown away by WoW's Talents and Glyphs. And then I actually learned how to play properly and learned there were like 2 builds tops.

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Noone says, that this system must be very complicated or every skill must have many options to tune. It can be just 2-3 options and even not for every skill

For example, AoE ability. 2 options to change it- or to make more potency but the CD will be bigger or to reduce the CD, but potency will be lower

It is just a simple variant of how it can be. Of course SE can create the original system

Players can't even be trusted with their 35 stat points and melds

Piety Paladins and Int White Mages are things I have seen

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Originally Posted by Xyno

In Tera online we have special glyphs, which can change the skills. And you know what? The system works and it is very nice in Tera

So, I like the idea, maybe SE will create something here

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As someone who played a lot of Tera (alpha to about a year ago), there is only one way to allocate glyphs for each class come end game. Picking anything else is harming your DPS/healing/aggro gen and can wipe a party very easily.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

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Well with an attitude like that....

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Well with an attitude like that....

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A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

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ur talking as if all the fight were tank and spank, how about a fight that has high raid wide aoe, that would need u to be spec to defensive, or a fight with waves and waves of adds that would require TP/MP reduction, or fight that has high movement that would benefit shortcast, there is no correct or best spec if the fights were design with mix and match mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

ur talking as if all the fight were tank and spank, how about a fight that has high raid wide aoe, that would need u to be spec to defensive, or a fight with waves and waves of adds that would require TP/MP reduction, or fight that has high movement that would benefit shortcast, there is no correct or best spec if the fights were design with mix and match mechanics.

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True, but then there is a best spec per fight, and you're expected to switch to that before the fight.

WoW's system in Warlords was exactly this. There were talents for different situations, and it was expected that you change spec on a per-fight basis. At that point, your character no longer had a build. Your build was every talent based on what you fought.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

True, but then there is a best spec per fight, and you're expected to switch to that before the fight.

WoW's system in Warlords was exactly this. There were talents for different situations, and it was expected that you change spec on a per-fight basis. At that point, your character no longer had a build. Your build was every talent based on what you fought.

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on the other hand, would be interesting for the community to try figuring out to balance their spec for specific fight, and the speed runner to try out different spec for faster kill.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

True, but then there is a best spec per fight, and you're expected to switch to that before the fight.

WoW's system in Warlords was exactly this. There were talents for different situations, and it was expected that you change spec on a per-fight basis. At that point, your character no longer had a build. Your build was every talent based on what you fought.

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That was largely because the system was almost entirely unrestricted, hence their (false) promise to make talent choices worth more than just a near-free consumable in Legion.

Note that Wrath and Cata didn't run into those issues, primarily because niche was set primarily by spec rather than talent choices (which mostly determined only gameplay and utilities back then), and secondly because you needed to visit a class trainer to swap talents.

Honestly its probably too late for them to add a customisation system to skills this close to Stormblood if it isn't already planned. Its only about 4 months away. Its also unlikely for them to add such a system during the patch cycle so the earliest we would be likely to see such a system added, if it isn't already planned, would be in 5.0 in about 2 years.

As for if we should have it, I don't see it as likely. Skill customisation is generally rather questionable as far as value goes as it makes balance more difficult and adds a questionable amount of value. In the end there usually ends up as a 'right' build which everyone is expected to follow. Even in a situation where you might want to use different builds in different fights it just means each fight has a 'right' build and people will be criticized if they deviate from it in group content. Plus switching builds every fight would likely become annoying for a lot of players.

Even with the existing PvP system, the customisation is mostly cosmetic. There are places where points are clearly more valuable than others and as you level up the amount of options you don't have becomes smaller and smaller.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

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This is such a overly generalized argument that it's hard to tell where to even start in debunking its particular links. Yes, overall, people are easily led towards cookie cutter specs when they have little reason to or intelligence by which to experiment with other builds, when the developers split talent series across multiple metas yet only really reward one of them (the "raid" meta; PvP, open-world, etc., be damn), when developers cannot determine how they wish to balance general compensations or capabilities (such as AoE vs. ST, burst vs. sustained dps), and/or when the developers don't do a good job of balancing those choices.

Yes, making a customization that allows for more than a few of its choices to be viable requires specific balancing, actual validation of more than just one gameplay type (e.g. "the raid"), and a community who actually likes to experiment and explore. XIV thus far will probably miss every one of those parameters. But that is a failing of the developer and the product, not of the overall concept of customization. (Were it a problem with the concept itself, the moment the "gimmick" of reduced LB build rates is removed, jobs performing within 1% of each other in theory would be taken or excluded accordingly, until SE effectively streamlines us into just 3 possible classes in order to compensate.)

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

A realistic one? Building "my way" only ever works in MMO's before you start playing with other people seriously. People want online games to play like single player ones, but they can't. At some point, your allies expect you to play well, and that translates to very few options.

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More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

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That is not toxicity, but simple pragmatism. If it can be mathematically proven one stat or skill customization is superior, you refusing to adapt is pure stubbornness. It's akin to arguing Dragoons should max out SkS or White Mage shouldn't bother with accuracy even if they intent to DPS. You can do it, but you're only hurting yourself and your raid group.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

More like I see a toxic hive mentality of "our way is the only way". XIV as it is offers little to no customization. Only offers flatline linear gear progression. Clearly evident when every fight is scripted. Devs themselves are so against customization they deliberately decrease LB gauge acquisition if multiple players play the same role/job that is outside standard conditions in preformed parties. And the cross class system in itself is a complete joke.

Pitiful. But I fear the expansion and whatever life XIV has will remain the same with linear progression and it's tomestones and tokens format. Tedious and tiresome. Story's okay though!

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But it's been shown time and time again that in any pretty much every MMO that any customization 'choices' you are given are simply illusions of control. Eventually there will arise a theorycrafted, mathematically proven meta of which skills are optimal for your chosen class. Once that comes about, with very little exception, if you arn't conforming to that build than you are shunned out of group content because you will only make things harder for everyone else.

Cooperative games like this are entirely social endeavors, within such systems societal norms will always form which govern what is acceptable and unacceptable for people to do. Your choices will always come under judgement and critique by your peers. If you don't care about that, then that's fine, you're free to stand outside the norms and ignore what people think, and I'm sure eventually you'll find a group willing to do things with you.

However, for the sake of balancing and presenting an even playing field for everyone involved, to make the system as fair and equitable to all... they need to limit your choices. They need to push you into certain paradigms and playstyles, both for the sake of their philosophy in creating fair and balanced content that is accessible to all as well as not creating circumstances that push one class or one skill set into obsolecence and cutting out all the players that love and only play that one class or know how to use that skill set to its best potential.