Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

of course not. you are expected to dps...if you are standing there doing nothing when everyone is at 100% health, you better be dealing damage.

You're allowed to votekick for differing playstyles.

And healers SHOULD dps during their downtime, if for no other reason than you'll get bored standing there staring at the boss as a puddle of drool forms at your feet.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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What street is this?

if the only thing your doing is dpsing and not healing and letting everyone die? yes. If your swapping in and out out Cleric stance and healing and dpsing as needed no.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

What street is this?

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Probably the streets of Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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Yes. The GMs have said that differing playstyles are a valid reason for kicking.

Kicking a healer for not DPSing also is allowable.

Here's the full explanation, happy reading:

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Originally Posted by Hikoko

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140813/zbgultir.jpg
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

To me this sounds like everything someone has to say is "(s)he had a different playstyle" when kicking for whatever reason.

People who join a duty as partly groups can kick whoever they want without a real danger of facing any kind of punishment.

You want that Syrcus Tower item, but the random player with the same class might need on it in case it drops? -> "Sorry, we dont like how you play" and kicked before the bossfight starts.


And just to clear things up, the reason I was kicked for had nothing to do with "different playstyles", the GM just put it in that category...

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

To begin, I have removed several posts commenting negatively about the company or the service itself, as well as a side discussion about the use of spell checking. Those suggestions have been heard, but take away from the concerns in this thread, which is a criticism of policy and confusion resulting from a message sent by a GM.

I have escalated several of the concerns with the messaging to the appropriate group for review and ways to improve their messaging to prevent confusion like this.

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

This does leave us with 2 possible options.

Option 1: We only consider reasons for dismissal that are specifically stated to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature. On the plus side, this does provide a clear and definitive set of guidelines for the use of the feature. On the downside, it is limited by the creativity of customers to find ways of disrupting a run outside of what is listed. Otherwise, the list of possible violations will be too extensive to be used efficiently or will be too vague to provide a definitive set of guidelines.

Option 2: Commonly reported reasons for dismissal are listed, although the tool can be used to dismiss anyone for causing a disruption to the duty. On the plus side, the feature can be used to remove disruptions and increase the chances that the duty can be completed. On the downside, it means that there is not one definitive list for reference on when the use of the feature is justified.

Neither option actively prevents abuse of the feature. Abuse of the feature is prevented due to account actions taken by GMs after an investigation to encourage customers who do misuse the feature to discontinue that behaviour. Currently, option 2 is what is currently in place, since a GM needs to investigate either way, and allows the GM to consider new types of disruptive behaviour that arise instead of waiting for a change to the tool while keeping the tool interface easy to navigate and use.

I think what I may not be clarifying in my replies is that this allows for a broader scope to the use of the tool than just one stated example (not fulfilling job duties). It's never just "one more reason"; the possible reasons for proper use of the tool are limited only bt the creativity of those looking to disrupt duties. Once we list something there, some new way of disrupting runs is bound to arise, and this allows customers to try to make sure runs go smoothly while still allowing for GMs to consider if the feature itself was used in a proper manner.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

of course not. you are expected to dps...if you are standing there doing nothing when everyone is at 100% health, you better be dealing damage.

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Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

Though I think it's silly to kick a healer for DPSing or not, it's most likely a thing. I'm on the side of "the job of the healer is to heal" and have been since I started playing in 1.0. I will DPS from time to time if I feel like it, but at the very least healers should heal. I've seen plenty of them that neglect healing because they were too busy DPSing. That's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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Healers like you are why I almost never queue as anything else these days. I can't take seeing 1/4th of the party standing around doing nothing for ninety percent of the dungeon.

What on earth do you do to fill the time?

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Healers like you are why I almost never queue as anything else these days. I can't take seeing 1/4th of the party standing around doing nothing for ninety percent of the dungeon.

What on earth do you do to fill the time?

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I feel you! Sometimes I'd like to dps or tank,but I usually just take my WHM because I know I'll most likely do the same amount of dmg (or even more) than one dps on average and I i like my runs smooth and quick.
Also,sometimes it gets even worse and youre stuck with a healer that lets the tank drop down to 5% health and then even doesnt do any healing after you've popped Hallowed Ground/Living Dead/Holmgang to give them some more time
to heal you up. So you STILL die after it runs out. Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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I hear you and in other games you'd be right, but in FFXIV healers have significant capacity to dps and not doing so when there's a window in which you could is deliberately holding your group back just because you want to be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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Is a DPS's dodging then the healer's job? Is a tank's surviving only the healer's job? Is helping as best you can to complete the run in a decent time somehow not your job as healer?

Why do people think that because their class comes equipped with something they can stick a role label on that the rest is somehow irrelevant?

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Healers like you are why I almost never queue as anything else these days. I can't take seeing 1/4th of the party standing around doing nothing for ninety percent of the dungeon.

What on earth do you do to fill the time?

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Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I hear you and in other games you'd be right, but in FFXIV healers have significant capacity to dps and not doing so when there's a window in which you could is deliberately holding your group back just because you want to be lazy.

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Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

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I like AST for that reason too. It's my preferred healing job. I think SCH leans a little more on the dps side because its fairy is capable of healing at full strength even when the SCH itself is throwing dots at things, WHM holy is just way too good to not abuse. AST's dps is kind of meh, but as you correctly pointed out they have other things they can be productively spending their time on.

As for the party's idea of when I should be dpsing... f that. It's 100% my call when it's safe to dps and when it isn't because it's my fault if everybody eats the ground while I'm doing it (assuming they didn't stand in the death). I'll dps when I feel it's safe to do so and at absolutely no other time and if they don't like it, I don't really care.

My opinion is that healers should heal and thats it. none of this dps nonsense. You are a healer, why are you dpsing but thats just my opinion on the matter. (que the 'healers should dps as well remarks")

This Debate is a big one and is on going, on one side ppl say healers should dps, the other they shouldnt. unfortunately one side likes to attack the other *cough "heals should dps" side*

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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Dont get discouraged by the shaming. You're right to do as you do. As long as the party is alive, and the DPS doesn't need to use their own healing cause they're dying in a corner, keep at it. Seriously, don't let us die ;_;

Aside from my own cd use and staying out of the stupid, the healer can do with my health what they wish. If I ran at 5% health and never die, that is fine. It is a resource for them to manage. As long as I dont die, its fine. I will comm them for the dancing.

*Edit* - But if they don't dps, that doesnt phase me either. However, I think those that do dps are playing their toon to a higher level.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

My opinion is that healers should heal and thats it. none of this dps nonsense. You are a healer, why are you dpsing but thats just my opinion on the matter. (que the 'healers should dps as well remarks")

This Debate is a big one and is on going, on one side ppl say healers should dps, the other they shouldnt. unfortunately one side likes to attack the other *cough "heals should dps" side*

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I'll be honest - in this game, healing is so overpowered that there's really no way to force one (in 4-man content) or two healers (in 8-man content) to have 100% casting uptime on nothing BUT heals. This is why even though I'd rather healing be more intensive, I still do DPS, because hey, it's better than standing around doing derp-all for about 50% of a run.

I push for healing design in this game to change, obviously - I'd rather strive for self-improvement in the area of my field, and not some sub-directive like DPS - but the way stuff is designed right now? Yeah...there's really no reason not to DPS, unless you're new/learning or just playing suboptimally. I don't attack anyone over this perspective, and honestly, nor would I kick someone for NOT DPSing as a healer; I just think it's something that people who are truly committed to maximizing the role in its current state would do.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

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What on earth do you do to fill the time?

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they must be watching youtube/netflix for half the dungeon.

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seriously, when i queue as SCH, it's so boring if i don't dps in a dungeon (since 30-50% of the healing is taken cared of by Eos/Selene) almost to the point that i'd fall asleep playing. there's absolutely no reason to not DPS every once in a while as healer, you're only inconveniencing yourself by making the dungeon run last longer and making others carry your weight

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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DPSing as a healer kickable? no
not healing as a healer kickable? yes

different playstyle is allowed, so long the player don't neglect his main task

A few of my FC buddies and I just had a big debate on this. We all went into Dun Scaith for the week and our other healer for our party would start of Scatach in cleric stance and she would just try to nuke. Meanwhile, our Tank, the MT, also in our FC would get dangerously close to death because our other healer, my husband, was being over worked trying to main heal the tank and the rest of our party. Long story short, many of us came to the point where we said we wished dps abilities were removed from all healing classes upon entering a dungeon or raid. Too often do we run into idiotic healers who cannot seem to prioritize when they should be healing/dpsing.

If the different playstyle is causing the group or you an issue then yes you can vote kick the player.

- Tanks doing small or large pulls.
- Healers dpsing or not dpsing.
- Handeling mechanics differently.

All these things can be reportable. IF they are harming you.


I doubt healer dpsing during their downtime can harm anyone :)

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.


Anyway personally I would'nt vote kick a healer for healing every 15 secs & standing around the other 14, but it gets on my nerves & they aren't getting my comm for doing the bare minimum :x

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.

Anyway personally I would'nt vote kick a healer for healing every 15 secs & standing around the other 14, but it gets on my nerves & they aren't getting my comm for doing the bare minimum :x

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Our attitudes are the same. Unless somebody's being really insufferable I just try to nudge cleric-shy healers into coming out of their Shells (a pun that would work better if we had a standalone Shell spell in this game) and trying their best. I've coached some of the more receptive folks on the ins and outs of it and more than a couple have come out of it realizing how each healer is equipped to make healing easy and open up opportunities to attack. Sometimes it really is easier to teach a bad player than it is to replace them and just make them wall up and insist they were right and you just bullied them, other times you just have to quiet down and let a bad player stay bad because you realistically aren't always going to have a replacement who can jump in and take their place.

In the end, it's my belief that stubborn, lazy "healers are supposed to heal because that's what they're called!" folks probably just had one bad experience with trying to contribute offensively and completely shut down the idea of ever trying it again, and becoming better players.

According to the GMs, you can kick anyone for pretty much any reason.

On this particular topic, I can safely say that I would be bored out of my mind if I didn't DPS as a healer, because I would actually just be standing around doing nothing. I don't understand how people find that fun, but to each his own. Those healers won't get my commendation unless something else goes spectacularly wrong and they salvage the situation, but I certainly won't kick them as long as they perform their primary task.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.

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I think it's the healers themselves that need to go back and visit the Novice Hall so they can learn what "downtime" is! It's sad because I've seen some pretty amazing healers out there who can dish out the damage and keep everyone above 90%. The problem is that MOST healers, and I'm gonna say I've seen this problem with WHM more often than not, cannot seem to stop nuking once they start. Or they will coast through a dungeon just dpsing and then casting Benedition on the tank once in a while. This is what is causing a shift in the community towards eliminating dps from healing classes in instances.

I've gone into dungeons where Tanks immediately ask the healer to focus on healing. That seems like a premptive fear reaction to me... Yet on the other hand we all know that no gamer likes to be commanded on how to play their class.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...

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The Healer role is to keep the green bars in the green.
The fact that it can hit things when all the bars are as green as they can get is purely secondary.


The Tank role is to keep the angry things from splatting the squishy things.
The fact that it does damage is purely secondary.

If a healer in my run is refusing to DPS, but keeps people alive, i don't care. I'd rather finish the run with no deaths but take 5 minutes longer than have a Healer who fails at his/her Primary Role.
If a Tank in my run is just spamming Flash and the enmity combo, I don't care. As long as the squishy things don't get squished, the Tank can do whatever he likes. I'd rather have a Tank that does crap damage but succeeds at his Primary Role than a Tank who runs without using Tank stances or enmity combos.

Success at their Primary Role clears duties.
Failure in their Primary Role fails duties.

Succeeding in both is absolutely preferable, to be sure.
However, "They made my run take 5 minutes longer to get Tomes" is NOT an acceptable reason to be vote kicking anyone. Not in my book.

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Originally Posted by LuckiGoLucki

I think it's the healers themselves that need to go back and visit the Novice Hall so they can learn what "downtime" is! It's sad because I've seen some pretty amazing healers out there who can dish out the damage and keep everyone above 90%. The problem is that MOST healers, and I'm gonna say I've seen this problem with WHM more often than not, cannot seem to stop nuking once they start. Or they will coast through a dungeon just dpsing and then casting Benedition on the tank once in a while. This is what is causing a shift in the community towards eliminating dps from healing classes in instances.

I've gone into dungeons where Tanks immediately ask the healer to focus on healing. That seems like a premptive fear reaction to me... Yet on the other hand we all know that no gamer likes to be commanded on how to play their class.

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Ironically, the reason for those healers who cant seem to stop nuking long enough to heal is a direct reaction to constantly being heckled to DPS at the expense of keeping people alive, particularly newer players while leveling through dungeons.

Those Healers who are DPSing constantly while keeping the party alive aren't necessarily better than Healers who don't DPS, They just have a better understanding of the duty they're in and the way the damage comes at the party within said duty.
People need to allow Healers to gain that understanding naturally. Not just demanding that they DPS at any time they're not actively casting a Healing spell.
Downtime is something a Healer learns while doing duties. And yet the majority of people who advocate DPS above the primary role of healing are failing to understand that crucial difference.

When a healer knows when heavy damage is incoming, they can plan accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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It's not a morally legitimate reason, but as others have pointed out, SE's guidelines are (intentionally) vague, so it's not really an action someone can get into trouble for. I do suspect, though, that vote-kicking more frequently targets healers who twiddle their thumbs for half a dungeon because they are loath to cast any offensive magicks.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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This is just lazy. If you have downtime and MP to spare, then cast some offensive magic. Otherwise, you're simply giving healers a bad name.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

My opinion is that healers should heal and thats it. none of this dps nonsense. You are a healer, why are you dpsing but thats just my opinion on the matter. (que the 'healers should dps as well remarks")

This Debate is a big one and is on going, on one side ppl say healers should dps, the other they shouldnt. unfortunately one side likes to attack the other *cough "heals should dps" side*

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It's important to distinguish between 'ideal MMO design' and what is currently present in FFXIV. I think healing should be intensive enough that it's a full-time job, but that's not how FFXIV is designed. The average dungeon run doesn't require anything close to a healer's full attention (obviously there are exceptions, which healers should adapt to), and healer damage doesn't strain the ability of a tank to hold hate. Given these facts, saying "healers should only heal" in the context of FFXIV is patently absurd.

This isn't a 'debate' between two competing philosophies with equally valid positions. It's a divide between a group of players who remember that they're playing FFXIV, and a group of players who want to ignore that fact and cling to principle.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

Dont get discouraged by the shaming. You're right to do as you do. As long as the party is alive, and the DPS doesn't need to use their own healing cause they're dying in a corner, keep at it. Seriously, don't let us die ;_;

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This isn't helping matters. There's a difference between not letting DPS die (i.e. focusing as much on healing as need be, up to 100% of the time if your gear / skill / party requires it) and taking a hard-line position to never DD. I've had some groups as a White Mage where the DD and tank can largely go through a regular pull without more than a Regen spell or two thrown their way; are you seriously going to support a healer who looks at that situation and says 'awesome, I get to watch Netflix while running the dungeon'?

The poster you quoted should absolutely be shamed. Trying to cram every situation into a rigid philosophy (one that, coincidentally, gives them a giant free pass for lazy dungeon running) practically begs for such an outcome.

I just think it is unbelievably frustrating when the team is giving it their all & the healer is literally using cure every 5 seconds when I have 33K-41K HP & only took 4K damage. So I"d survive another 45~ seconds at least on HP alone not considering Equilibrium(8K)/Thrill of battle(9K)/Clemency(8K)/Souleater(2K)/Hallowed Ground/Bloodbath/Abyssal drain(700 per enemy) OR my many many defensive CDs.

The above only really applies to dungeons, in relevant normal Raids, Savage, & EX primals I can understand not wanting to DPS most of the time to prepare for oncoming damage, but Savage raiders actually DO damage AND manage to keep everyone alive, not that I expect that from every player but it is possible, and I think that is a sign of truly skilled people.

Ugh, people still can't get it through their skulls that DPSing as a healer when the team will survive does in fact make you better than a 0 DPS healer.

Maybe I should take some names from this thread and just spam Ruin and unsummon my pet when I meet these people. You ignore your toolkit, I ignore mine.

Ah sorry, when I say "current healer" I mean the healer we have been matched with. In most cases where it's become an issue either the "offending" healer will straighten up or they will just leave because, as I said earlier, they don't like being told what to do.

A damage dealer or tank who fulfills their primary role with minimal efficiency to clear the content is not a good player. A healer is not exempt from that, and to say otherwise is completely ignorant of how the game has been designed.

https://crowdfundinglegalnews.files....pg?w=350&h=316

I'm just gonna leave this here...

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Originally Posted by Rennies

A damage dealer or tank who fulfills their primary role with minimal efficiency to clear the content is not a good player. A healer is not exempt from that, and to say otherwise is completely ignorant of how the game has been designed.

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The fact that they're clearing content makes then a minimally good player. Just good enough to get by. If they tried, they could become a great player. Maybe even an excellent player if they really put effort in.

A bad player is one who fails duties, dragging down the players they're grouped with. There is no grey area with that. You can be 'good' enough to clear basic content. But any kind of 'bad' is enough to fail duties.

Choosing not to DPS as a Healer, or choosing to focus on the 'Tank' side of Tanking does not inherently make you a bad player. Not everyone is on the bleeding edge of skill and/or gear.

If you're attempting Savage level content, Then you can be expected to perform at the best you can, which includes maximizing damage dealing while Tanking and Healing. But thats about the only place anyone can reasonably expect others to be performing at max level.
In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant. You're going to get all kinds of players with varying degrees of experience and skill.
Just because you have an overgeared friend or FC mate who manages to turn the DPS on full blast while keeping the party full in a 4 man duty does not give you the right to expect that of every single healer that joins you via duty finder.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

The goal here is to teach, and to those who refuse to be taught, to change their attitudes. Take a couple minutes out of your day and teach a 0-Cursed healer what their job can really do. You know, pay it forward and all that.

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This is the best way for all of us to go about this issue. We can all try to mention in chat how we think the instance might go faster/easier if the healer does a,b and c. If they fire back swearing vote kick them. If their playstyle is causing the team to fail, like without a doubt they are failing because of the healers actions or lack thereof then vote kick. The only thing I would ask everyone to consider is a person's comfort level in their role. My point here is that these kinds of things can take time an we should all try to take a gentle approach when confronting healers about their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If you're attempting Savage level content, Then you can be expected to perform at the best you can, which includes maximizing damage dealing while Tanking and Healing. But thats about the only place anyone can reasonably expect others to be performing at max level.
In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

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http://i.imgur.com/I66xPqt.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sylve

A bad player is one who fails duties, dragging down the players they're grouped with.
There is no grey area with that. You can be 'good' enough to clear basic content. But any kind of 'bad' is enough to fail duties.

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So, outside of ex/savage content there are no "bad players"? I had one timeout once in Amdapor (nm) back in 2015 in a dungeon, so I guess there are only minimal good, good, great and excellent players out there? :rolleyes:

Also I don't get why people judge the players instead of their actions.
Doing nothing is bad/lazy.
Doing overheal is bad/lazy.
Being lazy is bad.
If you're not dpsing and your party members don't drop like flies, you're most likely doing one of the above. Which is not "minimal good", it's just plain bad.


Saying bad players exist only in failed duties, is like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" play then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do almost nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was a "minimal good" strategy? Never ever.

Also we're not talking about "new players", "inexperienced players", because I think that the healers in this thread, mentioning they never dps, are neither new nor inexperienced.

"Minimal good" isn't a proper term, even... So Cure III single target (which still makes the target survive) is just "minimal good"? I always thought it's bad. :rolleyes:

The only reasonable excuse not to DPS as a healer is your new and not comfortable with the job yet and even then you should gradually learn it on easier content like dungeons so once you get to harder stuff your used to stance dancing

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Also I don't get why people judge the players instead of their actions.
Doing nothing is bad/lazy.
Doing overheal is bad/lazy.
Being lazy is bad.
If you're not dpsing and your party members don't drop like flies, you're most likely doing one of the above. Which is not "minimal good", it's just plain bad.

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Insert ~Apply cold water to that burn~ meme