A reason Final Coil is a better raid tier than Creator Savage is T9 requirement

The fact that the 3.x design decision for endgame goes from pure faceroll to be able to go into a savage encounter that drops BiS equipment is a gigantic design flaw that must be addressed in 4.0. Having a gate that tests player skill between the braindead content and the most rewarding content in the game is common sense.

T9 was a gate to get into final coil was a great design that improved the average player skill across the board in those dungeons in 2.4 and onward. It reduced frustration from non-static but skilled players and it created tighter knit endgame communities. This is a stark contrast to the current PUG environment. Sure there were trap players back then, but T9 was keeping the most underperforming players at bay, and this was good for the game. Sure, people could buy a clear or get carried back then, which did happen, but it was better than no gate at all. And when players were ready, they would clear T9 and would be better players going into final coil than if they were just let into final coil the way current endgame is designed.

If this design isn't duplicated or with tweaks in 4.0, then there needs to be other ways to keep players who have no business being there out until they are proven to be ready for it in both game knowledge and job skill. What are some ideas that we can give SE to keep the skill curve balanced instead of going from one extreme to the other?

edit: 2.0 had demon wall as well which really helped wake players up and learn their jobs in 2.0 and 2.1. For those that don't know Amdapor Keep had a dps check with an enrage(hornets and damaging floor along with an insta death push back if not positioned right). Yes, a 4 man dungeon that actually challenged player skill did exist at one time. This type of thing needs to be brought back as well. Dungeons should be scary places that are moderately difficult, require crowd control, mechanics, etc. This also helps prepare players for endgame.

Nah sorry I liked the fact that I could jump right into A9S with my team. I hope SE keeps doing what their doing right now in regards to this.

And WOW! A post like this comes straight from gilgamesh! Why am I not surprised?

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Nah sorry I liked the fact that we could jump right into A9S with my team. I hope SE keeps doing with their doing in regards to this.

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I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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You can't fight the entitlement of this game's players. YoshiP will never stop carebearing them.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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You're not going to find any consensus on these forums, nor will you find anything resembling a proper sample size of what the playerbase as a whole thinks here.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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What does people being able to go into content straight-on have to do with you raiding?

Are they going to be raiding with you? No? So why does it matter and what do you care if other people are able to do the content?

And if you go into a PUG anyways, always set your expectations low so you aren't surprised when the DRG is actually a lolDRG and the AST spreads a spire and royal road's a balance.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

What does people being able to go into content straight-on have to do with you raiding?

Are they going to be raiding with you? No? So why does it matter and what do you care if other people are able to do the content?

And if you go into a PUG anyways, always set your expectations low so you aren't surprised when the DRG is actually a lolDRG and the AST spreads a spire and royal road's a balance.

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Chances are u are going to somehow end up raiding with them through party finder, and no u can't set expectations low when it comes to savage or extreme.

its like zurvan, what business do they have there if they simply cannot perform their opener right, and ruining everyone else experience.

A big reason why raiding in heavensward sucks is all of the gear you get from it is essentially useless outside that raid tier. You don't keep it - instead, you throw it away for new crafted gear on patch day. That's fucking stupid and a fundamental problem with the 3.x system. If they continue it into 4.x then they really have no idea wtf they're doing.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

its like zurvan, what business do they have there if they simply cannot perform their opener right, and ruining everyone else experience.

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This problem can be solved with a static group to be honest, if you can't have a static group that problem is with the player no with the game. People complain about this in every multiplayer game this days, they spect to have a premade experience with pugs and thats never going to happen outside very few scenarios.

But anyway if you ask me allowing players to jump to the last PvE content aviable is not working and they need to find an alternative.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

This problem can be solved with a static group to be honest, if you can\\'t have a static group that problem is with the player no with the game

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First static could clear less about ex trial, so if u want bird, u will have to farm it at ur own time, but due to no skill check, guess whos there to ruin ur experience, ppl that just assume they can do the latest content. I don\\'t see why we start giving tome gearsthats almost equally and in some cases better the savage gear to ppl that don\\'t bother to do content. They should keep all the lvl 60 hard mode dungeon and MSQ dungeon horizontially so they don\\'t have to cater to ppl if they don\\'t want to do content.

I feel like I'm on a merry-go-round!

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Chances are u are going to somehow end up raiding with them through party finder, and no u can't set expectations low when it comes to savage or extreme.

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Solutions: Don't raid, or setup a static, or blacklist and move on. Don't ruin it for everyone else just because someone happened to piss in your cereal and not the rest.

First thing I thought of when I saw this post.......

Final Coils.......Still a better love story than Twilight.

I consider less gating in Heavensward to be a positive. It's fun to have more fights to attempt even if you aren't capable of clearing all of them and in some cases fights that were released later are easier than ones that came first.

Players have the right to create their own groups and remove people that they feel are under-performing. There's no need to bar others from trying at all.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I don\\'t see why we start giving tome gearsthats almost equally and in some cases better the savage gear to ppl that don\\'t bother to do content. They should keep all the lvl 60 hard mode dungeon and MSQ dungeon horizontially so they don\\'t have to cater to ppl if they don\\'t want to do content.

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I mean some Shire gear is BiS and now that you can upgrade every week people are getting 270 gear and 260 gear from Dun Scaith, honestly we're so far into the raid cycle that they shoulda just removed the scrip cap for gear this patch. The only thing holding people back from clearing A9S-A12S is either skill, time, no static or no desire to do it you can casually get all your shire gear and never touch Alex Savage these people don't assume that they can clear it they're just not bothered by it.

But gating people from hardmode dungeons and let them do the MSQ? Then what's the point of playing this game casually? How are they gonna get scrips? You can faceroll the dungeons in 14 mins you don't need the best gear at all, hell you can do it in the ilvl 235 gear from PvP. Sounds to me like you're whining because "oh no casuals are getting the same gear as me whaaaa", get over it the expansions coming out in June and all this gear is gonna be obsolete anyways.

i'm not really understanding your problem?
you don't have any friends to play with and expect pugs to just always be good?

It seems this will be the norm for now, so many people complained about not seeing the bahamut story because it was tied to skilled content that they removed the "skilled" part from story progression.
And in Alexander's case in particular i know several groups that can kill alexander easily but still can't clear gordian or midan they were so overtuned

I understand both sides of this argument.

On on hand I do believe there should be some fairly hard content that requires skill to get through it just because there is just that sheer satisfaction of having cleared it. It's a good feeling to have and provides a challenge as well helps you to improve your skills.

On the other hand I also feel that everyone has the right to be able to do all the content. Unfortunately for that equilibrium to exist they have to make the new raids brain dead to the skilled players which in turn makes those players want to quit the game for a more challenging one.

SE has to set some type of boundary on this front and I say this just because if they keep catering to those players that keep saying 'the content is too hard' eventually it'll hit the point where my 6 year old daughter would be able to run the latest raids that are released.

The thought of making clearing A8S required to do the Creator Savage makes me laugh. Really. Hard.

Lots of groups that cleared A12S have no hope of beating A8S even with i270 BiS gear.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Solutions: Don't raid, or setup a static, or blacklist and move on. Don't ruin it for everyone else just because someone happened to piss in your cereal and not the rest.

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Even if u do have a static is not like they are around 24/7, what I am trying to say is that there needs to be a skill check b4 they can attempt the content.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

What are some ideas that we can give SE to keep the skill curve balanced instead of going from one extreme to the other?

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I'd like to see 'gateway' dungeons that split players up into significantly smaller groups as a means of ensuring that every player is pulling their own weight. It should be an automatic process, so as to discourage people from purchasing clears.

An example might be a boss that splits the group up across four platforms, with two players per platform; each micro-team would then need to survive certain mechanics while dealing damage. One team failing should translate to a wipe for all, and success should absolutely REQUIRE the involvement of both players on a platform.

Alternately, I think solo Duties that gate certain Raid sections could also prove effective.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Even if u do have a static is not like they are around 24/7, what I am trying to say is that there needs to be a skill check b4 they can attempt the content.

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I understand what you're saying and do agree with you to a degree.

In today's world things had changed since the early days of games like FF XI, any real FF XI player would know of the difficulty I'm referring to. Today with ppl's time schedules and everything as well as the increased interest from the more casual gamers making online game content too difficult can be a catalyst for a games death.

I love testing my limits and pushing myself to exceed those, I do find to an extent that is difficult to do this on XIV compared to XI even in the later years when they made everything there too easy to do.

Everyone of every skill level has the right to be able to do all the content (even those blm's that use a blizzard rotation >.> )

Totally agree with you, pal. The game become more and more casual without any barriers to keep the low skill players from the great dungeon rewards. They don't deserve it

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Nah sorry I liked the fact that I could jump right into A9S with my team. I hope SE keeps doing what their doing right now in regards to this.

And WOW! A post like this comes straight from gilgamesh! Why am I not surprised?

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He is from Gilgamesh and by his words I see, that that is a good server. I see your words and I see, that you are not from Gilgamesh. You know what?

I see the strong link here- good player like him- on Gilgamesh, player like you, who likes to faceroll the content- not on Gilgamesh. Aha ha

o hai its xyno

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

I want to know if most people agree with this. If they do, I will likely have to find a new game to play, sadly.

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I wouldn't agree with this if Alex Savage wasn't a design mess in Gordias, only on the verge of recovering with Midas...
What you can hope (And I think they mentionned it in a interview) is that now that they found a good difficulty level, we might see the return of gated Savage.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

In today's world things had changed since the early days of games like FF XI, any real FF XI player would know of the difficulty I'm referring to.

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Except that FFXI was far "easier" than XIV...XI was not hard, it was time consuming.
Killing the same mob fifty times and dropping nothing is not hard, it's time consuming...
Losing thirty minutes by returning to your home point after a wipe and trekking all the way back to the arena is not hard, it's time consuming...
Grinding Colibris to gain back a level you lost after several wipes, without your overpowered lvl75 gear is not hard, it's time consuming..
Clearing two hundred Dynamis and/or speding millions of gils to gain a relic is not hard, it's time consuming...
Reading all my example is not hard...it's time consuming :p

Like I said I remember the early days of FFXI where to get to lv 75 you had to have skill as well as know your job to a T. Unfortunately the casual gamers have taken interest in online games so to keep those players they can't make the content too difficult.

Two suggestions I would have:

1) if it hasn't been done already switch it so you can do all content as a under-sized party so that the skilled players can go into any content including the newest stuff coming out with less ppl to create the challenge they want.

2) Make a set of fights with various difficulty like;
- very easy - easy - tough - very tough
Or something like that. Yes it would be similar to the arch angels fights from FFXI but that would allow for a separation between skill levels. Also with this the gear rewards can be better, like item drops to upgrade old gear to like an ilvl 180 (based off the current ilvl cap)

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

its like zurvan, what business do they have there if they simply cannot perform their opener right, and ruining everyone else experience.

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Not skipping soar is ruining people's experience?

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Like I said I remember the early days of FFXI where to get to lv 75 you had to have skill as well as know your job to a T.

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Then you only remember the good players. I've crossed a lot of players that didn't know what a Skillchain or a Magic Burst were at level 75...
Having skill and knowing your job only made things faster.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Everyone of every skill level has the right to be able to do all the content (even those blm's that use a blizzard rotation >.> )

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I would actually disagree with this assessment, as someone who has much less time to devote to FFXIV than I did to FFXI.

For one thing, the language used is deceptive and overly-strong. Nobody has a 'right' to anything in a video-game. We have the right to choose what games to spend our money on, but that's about it.

Secondly, I think even the spirit of your position misses the mark. Ideal game design, be it MMOs or anything else, should provide content for multiple types of gamers, from the newest of the new to the most-experienced hardcore raiders. I suspect this statement, taken alone, is something most would agree with.

It's also in direct opposition to the view that all content should be doable by anyone. Such a view suggests only one type of gamer should be catered to - the lowest common denominator. That's not a recipe for success.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Then you only remember the good players. I've crossed a lot of players that didn't know what a Skillchain or a Magic Burst were at level 75...
Having skill and knowing your job only made things faster.

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Yes I remember the skin chain and magic burst timing, and yes I did run across bad players and once you got identified as a bad player parties were reluctant to invite them and they were only a last resort if there wasn't anyone else seeking a party.

Yes it was time consuming but those that put that time in got the better gear and earned their lv's over hours of grinding and those lv's took longer the higher lv you got.

I remember being able to go into fights with less than a full party of highly skilled ppl and being able to clear it. I also remember going into fights listed as very tough where if 1 person screwed up we wiped.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Everyone of every skill level has the right to be able to do all the content (even those blm's that use a blizzard rotation >.> )

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In unsync mode- yes, but NOT in actual or even not after the nerf. Only in UNSYNC mode such players have the right to clean the content if they are tooooo lowskilled to play in a proper way. The reward must be gained through the EFFORT, not through the FACEROLL. If you don't make any effort, you cant gain the reward. It is a GLOBAL RULE

For such low skilled players FF has lot of simple and casual content to get a gear

What I'm saying here is you get the ppl that say 'the content is too hard' so SE nerfs it some then you get the ppl that say 'the content is too easy'. The problem SE is looking at is do they make harder content or easier, the ppl complaining it's too hard will quit playing if they can't do all the content which leads to loss of subs for SE. Then you have the ppl saying it's too easy and a bunch quit because of that and SE still looses subs.

It's a catch 22 what do they do? No matter what they try ppl aren't happy with them on one side it the other. The aspect that everyone has the 'right' to be able to play all content regardless of skill lv comes from trying to put everyone on a equal lv where no one person is better than another, yes skill lv's will always be different. I don't like the attitude of 'I'm better than you' as the person looks down their nose at you.

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Originally Posted by Xyno

In unsync mode- yes, but NOT in actual or even not after the nerf. Only in UNSYNC mode such players have the right to clean the content if they are tooooo lowskilled to play in a proper way. The reward must be gained through the EFFORT, not through the FACEROLL. If you don't make any effort, you cant gain the reward. It is a GLOBAL RULE

For such low skilled players FF has lot of simple and casual content to get a gear

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I agree with you, the problem tho is the low skilled players feel they have a right to the same gear the skilled players are able to get without putting in the effort to get it.

I'm sorry if I seem kinda up and down on things, I fight with myself over keeping everyone on the same equal lv and recognizing that those that are more skilled and deserve the hard earned gear the low skilled won't work for.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

The aspect that everyone has the 'right' to be able to play all content regardless of skill lv comes from trying to put everyone on a equal lv where no one person is better than another, yes skill lv's will always be different. I don't like the attitude of 'I'm better than you' as the person looks down their nose at you.

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Being able to ENTER the dungeon and to get THE REWARD from the dungeon- it is TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I can agree, that all the players no matter their skill level have the right to enter ANY TYPE of the content to try to clear it, but GETTING THE REWARD- it must be the right only of those players, who made an EFFORT to get the reward. Players, who can play only in a rolface mode have NO RIGHT to get the reward in the actual time

After the HALF-YEAR nerf of the actual content- ok, go and try to clear, but if you not good to clear it in actual- don't ask to nerf.

When the current expert dungeons got released I found both if them far too easy. And at the time my ilvl was just over the minimum requirement to run them. Like I'm talking big pulls being done and the mobs dropping far too easily and not having a single wipe at all.

I haven't done any of the savage content because I feel I'm not geared well enough for those, comparing it to the coil and I just haven't had the time to gear myself properly but I suspect it's a similar thing there on difficulty from what I've been hearing.

I've been starting to find the time to gear myself better but for the longest time I've been always a set of tombs gear weaker than I want to be. Last time I was able to gear myself fully before new gear came out was with the ilvl 200-210 gear.

But the thing is you're asking for barriers just for there to be more barriers. If you want your raid groups to be people that have only cleared A1S-A8S you have the option to do that by checking the achievements of people that join. Heck you don't even have to go that far, you can even use xivlogs to check. Why are you asking to limit other players just so you have to do a little less work on making your static?

Xyno like I said I do agree with you on this. The ppl that put the effort in for the top gear deserve it, the ones that won't work for it don't deserve to have that gear.

I laughed at the ppl complaining that the steps of faith fight before hw was too hard to do and that was after the nerf. They went wide eyed when I told them what it was like before the nerf.

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

But the thing is you're asking for barriers just for there to be more barriers. If you want your raid groups to be people that have only cleared A1S-A8S you have the option to do that by checking the achievements of people that join. Heck you don't even have to go that far, you can even use xivlogs to check. Why are you asking to limit other players just so you have to do a little less work on making your static?

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It's not just that, the fact ppl are even able to skip phases on new raid content shows just how easy the content is. If ppl are having difficulty doing the new raid content shows they need to work of their skill lv and are holding others back from getting something that is challenging.

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

But the thing is you're asking for barriers just for there to be more barriers. If you want your raid groups to be people that have only cleared A1S-A8S you have the option to do that by checking the achievements of people that join. Heck you don't even have to go that far, you can even use xivlogs to check. Why are you asking to limit other players just so you have to do a little less work on making your static?

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The game itself has almost nothing for control or measuring the players performance. Do we have in-game parser? No. Do we have special checkboxes like "only a8s clearers can join the party"? No, we havnt. We have only the side services like ACT and FFLOGS, but the game ITSELF must have instruments for measuring

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

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None of what you said pertains to anything I said. Content being relatively easy is another subject entirely. Also I don't recall people skipping phases with A5S-A8S gear in A9S-A12S but I might be wrong as I took a lengthy break. A history lesson would be good. https://i.yuki.la/v/1456789891304.png

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Originally Posted by Xyno

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Stone, Sky, Sea? I mean personally I'd rather squeenix embraced addons but I can see why they don't but I'm not sure how this is an argument when such tools are so widely available and easily accessible. No one ""seriously" "raiding"" wouldnt be using stuff anyways.
And like I said, why are you asking for barriers to be put into place when you can pick and choose who stays in your party by checking cheevos? Please read my post, I implore you.