Alter a tank for SB

So we know for Stormblood when we hit 70 we should still have roughly the same amount of buttons, and it seems a safe bet we're all going to get new skills.

For the sake of the thread lets say it'll be 4 or 5 new skills, so if you had to delete that many skills (or change them to a role skill,) replace them with new ones, & could alter as many old skills and traits as you like (while keep them at least sort of recognizable) what changes would you make?

Interested what people come up with :).

So, for example, as a rough idea:

Paladin:

Removed:
Provoke (role skill)
Convalescence (role skill)
Awareness (role skill)
Tempered Will

New:
Barrier: stoneskin copy, lower duration though.
Rally: rez spell, uses all MP.
Inspire: provides damage/healing boost to target, medium cooldown.
Banish: Flash with damage, combo's from riot blade, costs MP.

Altered:
Cover: works on magic damage as well.
Sentinel: gains tempered wills effects.
Divine Veil: doesn't need triggering, that's kind of pointless.

Somewhat interesting, and most of it would be fun to try out. But I don't agree with removing Tempered Will and giving it's effects to Sentinel, since often I only need the knockback immunity or to remove bind/heavy, but I don't want to end up using one of my better damage reductions at the same time.

I thought they should just make Tempered Will perhaps more useful/common to use, like besides doing the CC removing (which is nice, also great in PvP) it also has an effect where in the duration of the ability if you take or restore quarter health, or remove a CC effect you'll also regenerate tp for a short time (stacking effect). Added quarter health part because not all bosses use CC effects, and you wont always be MT.

A more simple version, but less reactive/interactive would just be that during Tempered Will besides being able to ignore/remove CC is that your weapon skills no longer cost TP but rather generate 50% of their cost. Paladin really needs a TP regen tool, it could be that.

Would love to see flash get changed though so, yay :P. If banish is able to replace Flash in enmity would Flash just become an opener then, like shield lob and other like abilities?

One vision I saw for flash for Paladin to significantly reduce the amount of casts (flash spam is the worst lol):

Flash becomes a tank target ability, if you target a monster it will target yourself like other abilities - so behaves just like flash if for yourself (players can remove buff if they want). Target becomes radiant, nearby the target monsters receive aoe non damage enmity like usual + blind, and nearby to the target become afflicted with judgement (w.e name, aura like effect - the first part (regular flash) isn't aura, second part "Judgement" debuff is).

All weapon skills done by the target tank to the judged have a bonus potency tick (small) and increased enmity generation (making flash spam less beneficial than going through your targets and management through combos). With hopefully some interplay with other abilities like Circle of Scorn can cause judgement to create micro holy fissures that are small aoe bursts on each target (so if you had like 4 monsters each one would explode with 50 potency hitting the other nearby monsters, a single monster would experience 200 potency burst basically). CoS because it has a cooldown so it keeps Paladin's AoE damage gated by time (in check). With a mechanic that increases the duration of the Radiance buff, like use of CoS or some other ability - so it becomes a new thing Paladins can manage (CoS is oGCD so maybe not the best manage tool), cast their new flash once, gain a very small amount of extra damage to a single target (and enmity) but also they'd gain AoE potential through the same ability. Oh and they can get a glowy effect now :P. And because they can manage the buff and it adds extra to even a single target it can be a thing for all scenarios, not just aoe situations (flash becomes useful during boss/single fights as well).

Finally since it isn't part of a combo Paladins could use other combos during the process, like run in flash and is now radiant, CoS, and then start to apply Goring Blade/Royal Authority to all the targets instead of spamming a new AoE combo (or worse, flash).

(Tank target ability so Paladins can use the ability even if they're not MT, just cast it on the MT instead of yourself). New Paladin abilities could utilize mana more and allow him more team player utilities since he'd need less of it for flash spam too.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

Somewhat interesting, and most of it would be fun to try out. But I don't agree with removing Tempered Will and giving it's effects to Sentinel, since often I only need the knockback immunity or to remove bind/heavy, but I don't want to end up using one of my better damage reductions at the same time.

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Maybe adding it to Bulwark instead? The effect fits with the name of either ability, but Bulwark is generally less useful than Sentinel.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

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I removed Tempered Will because I had to remove something :p. I was thinking of removing Cover but that feels more like a distinct PLD skill to me.

Just to clarify, you're proposing flash be targeted like stoneskin (i.e. cast on self or others,) the target receives a buff that increases damage against enemies with a special debuff, the enemies get the special debuff by being in range of the target when the ability is used?
It's an interesting idea definitely. Not sure if flash should so heavily changed instead of it being a new ability or spreading it through a couple of abilities.

I am not hopeful that it will happen, since it is an ability DRKs learn from a quest after 50, but it'd like to see lunge be made into a role skill.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I removed Tempered Will because I had to remove something :p. I was thinking of removing Cover but that feels more like a distinct PLD skill to me.

Just to clarify, you're proposing flash be targeted like stoneskin (i.e. cast on self or others,) the target receives a buff that increases damage against enemies with a special debuff, the enemies get the special debuff by being in range of the target when the ability is used?
It's an interesting idea definitely. Not sure if flash should so heavily changed instead of making it a new ability though.

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Cover is very Paladin!!! You're right :D. I think there could be something done to the range too (it's great in PvP but in like a dungeon you don't really want to move the boss unless you reaaaally have to).

In another thread I suggested that oaths are always on (Paladins are characters of oath anyways) and that activating an oath while in the oath itself is more like an activateable passive in games like LoL. Could move tempered will into Shield Oath? Tbh its not a NEEDed ability but I have come to like it a lot in PvP. Tempered Will - "hahaahahha come and get me, ahahah *evil laughs*". When activated it grants Tempered Oath, and the specific oath activated changes the effect of the temper buff :D. Could use this as a way to make oath switching flow better for Paladin as well, like cheaper and oGCD, but activating it again means using more mana for some given effect.

For flash yeah it'd be like a ally cast ability, if you have no target its yourself ofc, monster is yourself as well, and someone else is .. someone else. So in a normal scenario you'd not change how you casted the new flash at all, it'd be the same. That effect now applies a debuff to nearby monsters. It's a target-able aura basically lol. I was hoping for people it wouldn't be too much of a mental change since for example you'd still run in and cast it like normal - the difference is now you'd move into other combos instead of casting it again and again. You may need to cast it once more if your CoS isn't ready and your DD is full boar but otherwise.. cast it once and then "maintain" your flash buff instead (through some other mechanic). Maintenance mechanics could unlock later in other abilities, so earlier levels are simpler but still not super spamming of flash.

It could be another skill, certainly I guess it depends on if Flash is still going to other jobs (a shared ability, cause I know sometimes Warrior uses Flash at least low level when they run out of TP). If its not a shared skill I just rather see Paladin's entire aggro management shift away from multiple flash usages :D.

Of course the CoS effect would come later and would be labeled under CoS, so you wouldn't have a mile long tooltip.

So it'd be like,

Flash: Instantly increases enmity in all nearby enemies. Aura: Increases your enmity generated by weapon skills to enemies within 15y. Duration X seconds
Radiant Flash (trait): Enemies now take extra damage from a Radiant target. Also applies blind, duration X seconds. <- old lvl 20 trait just adds blind
CoS: bla bla, additional effect: Enemies effected by Judgement will explode for 50 AoE potency, 5y.

So you can fit my big blab into a much smaller box I think, so it's less weird and like WHAT IS HAPPENING.. (goblin voice, wc3.. :P). If Flash is still shareable in 4.0 then just move the Aura into the trait, and move the blind into flash. So the trait adds the full aura effect, and allows you to target others.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I removed Tempered Will because I had to remove something :p. I was thinking of removing Cover but that feels more like a distinct PLD skill to me.

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Just a question.... why would you choose tempered will as the only non "role skill" over Awareness? why not go with Awareness instead to keep it consistent with role skills like the other 3? I don't think it helps tanking as a whole to remove it from the other 2 tanks, given how role skills are "supposedly" going to work out.
Additionally, I'm not sure I want my CC break tied to a mitigation cooldown. They serve two completely different purposes and Sentinel has such a long cooldown that you really need to pop it at the right times, so I don't see the benefit.

PLD should be able to keep cover and tempered will and allow the other 2 tanks to keep access to Awareness as a Role Skill instead. PLD keeps it's "niche" and icon abilities, and the other 2 tanks dont get crit to death. I like that much more

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

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I did list awareness as changing to a role skill.

I made some pretty big assumptions about role skills in the OP tbh, essentially what I think will happen is most things that can be cross-classed currently will be removed from a jobs skill roster and chucked in a list a tank/melee/ranged/caster abilities.
So Foresight, Bloodbath and either Fracture or Mercy Stroke get removed from WAR and put in the list, freeing up 3 slots for new abilities, plus then I thought it would be interesting to delete 1 or 2, speculation threads always focus on adding stuff with little in the way of pruning.
I wondered what people thought their jobs could most afford to lose :).

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Originally Posted by Jandor

blah

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i'm clearly drunk and blind again. derp.

The only thing I'm worried about with the cross-class tuning myself are the jobs without classes- AKA DRK in this case. (along with AST, MCH, probaly RDM, and whatever else is coming with HW)

PLD and WAR get some nice pruning, but DRK gets kinda left behind since they "keep" what they had before. Makes me think they either get horribly shafted come changes, or they get special treatment with getting ALL the things, in the form of changes without the exchange.

@OP Love how you wanted to play a game, and all it did was turned into a fight because you choose Tempered Will to be removed. XD Forums a fun!

I would join in but I have go to work :'(

Alright, I'll give it a shot.

...And, that just turned into a wishlist instead of speculation... Hiding.

Background Changes:

• TP and thereby combos have been revised immensely. TP is now both spent and generated by your weaponskills and certain abilities. Rather than unlocking sequential skills, combos now merely reduce their TP costs or increase their TP generation.

What would have previously been called combo "openers" generally cost only a small, flat amount of TP, while generating a proportionately high amount and reducing the cost of sequential actions within the same skill-chain, by up to roughly half. Combo "bridges" consume a larger amount, both a flat minimum and a portion of total TP for added effectiveness, and reduce the cost of sequential finishers of the same skill-chain. Finishers spend a large portion of current total TP to determine their effectiveness.
The "resting position" (to which TP will regenerate passively while out of combat) for TP is about a third full, enough to immediately open into a finisher of 75% or so of maximum potency. This means that combat opens much more quickly than as presently the case. Two armies will not charge at each other only to begin poking one another with openers, or to reach their full momentum only after three to four GCDs.

TP is also generated by damage taken and mitigation done, and may be spent on certain abilities -- primarily tanking-oriented ones. This gives tanks a fair bit more resource and spending options than most classes, and indirectly allows them to more precisely min-max their offensive and defensive capabilities.

• Blocks, dodges, and parries. Blocks and parries are now based more heavily on attack power and therefore provide more consistent (flat) outputs across a variety of levels of enemy strength. Dodges no longer guarantee that no damage is taken; strikes are now capable of glancing blows, dealing any portion beneath the original damage value. These changes result in an increased mitigation throughput in overgeared or overleveled content, but only a slight decrease in RNG spread in current content.
  
  Skills now do as they would appear to. If it looks like a cleave, it is a cleave (Spinning Slash). If it looks like it should knock the opponent to the ground, it does (Skull Sunder). If it looks like it ought to knock them skyward, it does (Full Thrust). If it looks like it should be a simultaneous counter-attack, it is (Savage Blade).
  
• Many skills that were previously used only for AoE or only for single-target may now have cross-purpose uses. (Overpower, for instance, can be used opportunistically and situationally in single-target, while Doom Spike can act as an expensive but powerful filler with attached movement, Ring of Thorns takes on bonus damage vs. knocked-down enemies, Rockbreaker and Grenade Shot can act as a capitalization on armor penetration, Unleash can open up enemies to later blink-strikes if sufficiently affected by Darkness, and Spread Shot, Quick Nock, Wide Volley, and Death Blossom can act as suppression.)
  
• Many skills are now acquired at different levels. These changes aim to give skills at the levels at which they'd be noticeable and/or allow for significant changes in strategy. Rampart, for instance, has been delayed until a later level where the Gladiator himself or his party could take advantage of the added mitigation, replaced in the meantime by the Shelltron-equitable Guard.
  
• Some flat native buffs have been removed, their effects being included at their average levels, passively, while others have been given additional functionality that should allow for more points of decision.
  
• The vast majority of enemy attacks are now a degree of progressive AoE, meaning that they can be intercepted through positioning.
  
• Many core mechanical traits have been added, both per job and role-wide. One such role trait is Fringeward, which creates a second, larger theoretical hitbox around the tank. Any time an interceptable attack passes through this hitbox to strike an ally, the tank will instead use the larger hitbox to intercept it. Animations pending. The Paladin has a uniquely improved form of this trait, known also as Cover.
  
• Certain abilities now have "variable" cooldowns. They may be rushed or overcharged for sub-proportionate output over time. (A 75%-charged ability would only have 67% its usual effectiveness, and a 133%-charged skill only 125% of its effectiveness, making the usual cooldown still the optimal point over time to use the particular skill.) Most, however, remain traditional cooldowns, enticing the tank to make the situation match his arsenal, rather than merely his arsenal meet the situation.
  
• Certain spells and skills may now be "charged" up to a given maximum duration, scaling with Attack Speed, in order to increase the potency and/or duration of their effects.

All:
Paladin, Dark Knight, and Warrior have each been more largely diversified through their interaction with the revised TP system. Many of the tanks' core mechanics have now been smoothed out to grant a stronger and more versatile thematic presence by making use of this analog resource in place of previous stack systems or flat modifiers.

• The Warrior's Inner Beast, for instance, is now also the name for a passive mechanic which buffs the Warrior with all TP generated (which in turn generates Wrath, essentially just a separately consumable layer of TP) and all Wrath spent, and fades over time. The Warrior therefore takes on the appearance of a raging beast, or the steel and treads and cannon kind of tank, who maintains power through power exerted.
• The Paladin's Sword Oath and Shield Oath now vary the job's formulas for TP generation and spending while each granting new mechanics.
• And the Dark Knight has become all the more terrifying and bastardly effective, while generating a new target-specific resource, Darkness, on the enemies he strikes. Delirium greatly enhances this, and Power Slash is improved by it, while Souleater feeds on said Darkness to enhance his own TP. Darkness reaches certain tiers of effects that can even allow fear-based crowd control or blink-strikes.

Paladin:

Removed:
Provoke (role skill; can take one of three enmity control skills)
Convalescence (role skill)
Flash - replaced by Flash of Steel mechanical trait (which allows your quickened strikes to blind enemies), Blade-turning (which allows blocked, parried, or dodged enemy attacks to strike other nearby enemies), and Brandish, a new physical AoE.
Shelltron - replaced by Gladiator's Guard, which is available much earlier and offers better control.
Divine Veil - replaced by Inspire

New:
Brandish -- a potentially complex physical AoE that also has some single-target uses.
Guard -- like Shelltron, but a variable/resource cooldown. Can be channeled. While Shield Oath is active, it makes you impassable.
Inspire -- a skill that, once enabled, causes your outputs to raise the attack/spell/healing power, (magic) defense, and maximum HP of nearby allies.

Revised:
<Pretty much everything that wasn't just added>

Warrior:

Removed:
Foresight (role skill, revised, not free)

New:
Challenge - another enmity control skill / a variant of Provoke (role skill; can take one of three enmity control skills)

Revised:
Maim
Overpower
Thrill of Battle
Brutal Swing
<Wrath>

Dark Knight:

New:
Sanction - another enmity control skill / a variant of Provoke (role skill; can take one of three enmity control skills)

Revised:
Souleater
Delirium
Power Slash
Unleash
Blood Weapon
Blood Price
Darkside
Grit

I read somewhere about 1 guy who wish for mage tanking, and feel it's interesting

but his mage tanker base on evasion so i think instead of evasion let make piet is a main stats so that tanker will have huge mana pool and let him have some kind of mana shield or skill that swap mana and health but his skill still base on mana so he has to be careful while spaming or else he will end up killing himself

Holy hell giving Paladins a raise? I want it so bad but it feels wrong

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

blahblah .

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well, to be fair I think the only ones losing anything here are WAR and PLD, in PLD's case I hope we're getting some sort of new abilities to take the place of all the ones that simply become ''role'' abilities. In WAR's case if they're truly taking away cross classes then they're going to be losing Internal Release which I know will make alot of WAR players sad cause, crit deeps.

As far as DRK they could honestly just make all those things ''role'' abilities and the only change to DRK would be ''oh hey I don't have to level MRD and GLD anymore

I expect Convalescence to be a PLD only skill and Awareness to be completely redesigned and possibly stay PLD only.

I'd like to see Delirium and Dragon Kick gain buffs so they do the same thing, so I can be allowed to overwrite Dragon Kick without working up the monks.

I want some sort of instant-heal skill for DRK knight that can grab a lot of hate off the cooldown, to match Equilibrium for Warrior.

And maybe it's just me, but making it so that sword oath changes the str debuff from RoH to a slashing debuff would be interesting.