[Mechanics] Zurvan Extreme and Soar

So, after playing in the Raid Finder for a couple of times, i've noticed that Soar is a "hard" mechanic because it doesn't use always the same patterns.

After a really few tries, hardcore players found out that Soar could be skipped if Zurvan hits 75% HP... and that's not a good thing. Why?

The Party Finder now is filled with people that cleared it and still can't handle Soar properly, making the new cross-server PF a toxic mess that makes Soar skipping a requirement!

I'd like to ask the dev team and Yoshi-P: Could you please fix Zurvan Extreme, making it impossible to skip Soar?
Hardcore players need to learn on dealing with it, not bypass it desperately with high DPS numbers... Otherwise, why invest development money into interesting boss mechanics if you can ignore it?

They asked for difficult content. Now that "it's too hard" they can't beat without going through a simple mechanic? Think about it. Because it'll be worse when Omega's new difficulty hits.

Hard and annoying are two different terms that you seem to be mixing up.

As it is, yes, Zurvan is broken in that his phase skip is at 75%, not at 80% or 70%. Soar isn't that hard to do, my static manages it just fine, but obviously, PF is a mess.

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Originally Posted by Etrius

making the new cross-server PF a toxic mess

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Sounds like the PF I knew since I started to do lv 50 stuff

Don't blame the hardcore players. Blame the devs for making such an easily exploitable boss, most pf seem to use a tank lb for second soar anyways which furthers trivializes the fight.

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not bypass it desperately with high DPS numbers

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While I agree that arguably the only interesting mechanic of this fight shouldn't be skippable, or at least so easily... "desperation" isn't involved here. Anyone who's been keeping up on gear, raiding or not, can skip Soar if they know how to perform their opener.

Most fights can skip things with high dps that isn't the issue. The issue is basically all of the guides make skipping it a priority they all seem to start at saying "welcome to my guide this fight can be soloed tanked and soloed healed and skip a bunch of stuff with high dps" That right there set up this whole mess that and the world first people saying how easy the fight is so everyone who is not geared out right to push phases like that is trying to push the phase.

that's the problem the solution is simple. Dear community, not all of you are capable of skipping soar but wait it does not really matter if you skip the first one or not as it happens twice and the fight so you have to learn it anyway, no, tank lb will NOT save you it just gives you a little breathing room for error but you still have to do the mechanic. I've seen so many parties skip the first soar to wipe to the second.

Honestly its not bad and the pattern is fixed for the most part, just between 2 options. What I do is remember where I need to stand via the star pattern and on my minimap I will flag where I go for the squish just incase so I can get into the general area. Otherwise its fairly easy I think, make sure south soar is on my left/right and such depending on where you get put.

Seems like one of those fights that the community makes it harder then what it really is.

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Originally Posted by Etrius

So, after playing in the Raid Finder for a couple of times, i've noticed that Soar is a "hard" mechanic because it doesn't use always the same patterns.

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Soar only has 2 variations. It's one of the easiest divebombs in the game.

http://i.imgur.com/V1zUqaO.png

I have to agree with OP on this one, the fact it is able to skipped does put a tight knot into your selection. With the fight being 250 ilv requirement I don't think I've ever seen Soar skipped until I was in a 260+ party, yet go into a training party and people will quit out because the group didn't skip Soar, going on about low DPS. I've seen more groups have more knowledge on the entire fight, that couldn't skip Soar, and not have clears vs groups that have cleared, can easily skip Soar, but have less overall knowledge.

It's odd that the game has progressed like it has, as back in 2.0 when fights would kill you if you had groups with too high dps. I didn't think punishing groups because of that reason was the right thing to do, but I also don't think punishing the player because they couldn't skip Soar. Reiterating what I said, you can still clear the fight without skipping this mechanic. It almost seems as there is never any middle ground with much of the content in this game.

My experience so far has been:

Parties with a firm grasp of mechanics, but can't meet enrage.

OR

Parties with high DPS who space out on the mechanics.

I'm sure there's some overlap somewhere, but I've yet to get in that group. Also, can someome please fix the image with the second Soar pattern? North and South are the *last* places you want to stand for that, it's always East and West. I see it everywhere, but it's just flat out misleading.

Please consider the item level of the players.

To be fair, all extreme fights have skippable mechanics if you've done them with item level 270-265 not just Zurvan. But back in the days, Creator was not out yet and people did not have their 270 BiS.

So don't blame the fight. Players with good gears AND good dps can skip mechanics from many fights not just Zurvan.

The reason people have their minds set on skipping Soar in Zurvan EX is because they saw it in guid videos. Which made them believe it is mandatory to skip.

I'll tell you this, even with 6 dps who are not geared you will not be able to skip Soar.

Also, there's nothing wrong with skip-able mechanics. I don't see how good players or rotations should go unrewarded for things like this. The other option would be to gate things, like Bismark EX has been for a large portion of players. Most people could not get past the high DPS check the fight required, despite having painfully easy mechanics.

Though I've griped about how many people "require" skipped mechanics, considering it's a mechanic you need to deal with later in the fight anyway, I have yet to understand why the first Soar needs to be skipped by such a large portion of parties.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Also, there's nothing wrong with skip-able mechanics. I don't see how good players or rotations should go unrewarded for things like this. The other option would be to gate things, like Bismark EX has been for a large portion of players. Most people could not get past the high DPS check the fight required, despite having painfully easy mechanics.

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It's really more of a gear restricted skip. If everyone's in ilvl 250s, good luck skipping soar no matter how tight your rotations are.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

It's really more of a gear restricted skip. If everyone's in ilvl 250s, good luck skipping soar no matter how tight your rotations are.

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Gear will still only get you so far. Also, you still need to deal with Soar later. *Points to first post she made on the first page.* It's not a hard mechanic.

I don't get the hubbub over this, to be quite frank. Good groups are skipping the first Soar because of inherently high DPS (my old raid static does it even with a 2/2/4 comp), but they're also doing the final Soar correctly because they're not vegetables and would rather use melee LB3 on the boss for even faster clears, and hence, faster farming.

The patterns are fixed pretty much. They do rotate a little on occasion but it's really not that bad to do.

The problem is that people are so fixated on there position they don't look at the rest. For the harder pattern All you ever need is 2 people to get it right north and south after that people just need to stand on the edge of the next guys circle. So if your south West you just need to stand on the left edge of the south guys circle. If you north west you stand on the edge of the south West guys circle..

As long as the guy on south knows where to stand which is is typically directly opposite north it becomes so very easy for people to fall into place.

Same deal for the other side if your north east just stand at the right edge of the North guys circle. And south East stands at the edge of the North East guys circle.

As long as north and south get it right everyone else can easily fall into the right place.

If you do this All you gotta do is remember always adjust to the guy on your right if you face the centre of the arena. So if your in his circle step left. If you put the next guy in your circle they step left.

As long as north and south get it right you're golden.

What I've been doing in raid finder is setting way points. A Polar south. B polar north. seems to make it very easy for the south guys to get his position right. If the North guys is an inch left of b. The south buy needs to be an inch right of a. And then the rest of the group falls into place accordingly at left edge of the last guys circle. seems to be make it much easier for the people on the west side to get there positions right.

The other pattern is even easier you just hug the left or right edge of the nearest line and presto.

Problem with this is the obsesion of the community for skip things. Thay don't learn how to dela with them. This finish in thigns like solo tanking or solo healing, in order to bring more DPS clases or even not allow Warriors on the PF (because the homlgang is not enough to survive the Demon Claw alone). I have a Warrio friend who didn't let him join parties for this. It is both fault. Devs for let skip stuff, and the players for being so demanding on skips.

Skip is ok and it's cool make fight quick and easy, but, for the love of god, don't depend on it, or you will never learn how to play. If this palyers believe they are so "pro", why don't do the mechanics? Should be easy for them, no?

I hope in the future Square Enix make bosses with mechanics unable to avoid. (and boses with actually need BOTH tanks and healers to avoid the solo tanks and solo healer parties).

NA raid finder is almost unusable since a lot of people do 1/2/5 and RF forces 2/2/4.

A 2nd tank is not needed since high DPS allows so many mechanic skips and 2nd demon's claw can be HG/LD so people just bring an extra DPS which makes skipping soar more viable for a larger amount of players.

http://i.imgur.com/Z89Upm9.jpg

Mark North as A, West as B, East as C, then get the MT to face Zura towards A before soar and this diagram will always be correct even if it's the other pattern. Lastly just get both tanks to stack together and that's it. Tell the party to start moving while soar is casting, you can run through the ground markers during the cast.

I guess that is an option but how much damage does it do? Honestly when I OT as DRK (MT is PLD) never really watch my health after the soar's AOE rings.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Gear will still only get you so far. Also, you still need to deal with Soar later. *Points to first post she made on the first page.* It's not a hard mechanic.

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I'm not talking about the difficulty of Soar or the fact that it appears in the second phase. I'm just pointing out that as far as "rewarding players with high skill" goes, you can be as skilled as they come, but won't get the reward of a 1st Soar skip strictly because you're not in high enough gear.

Sophia had similar mechanics skip with the first tank buster being skippable if you got her hp to like 84%. If people couldn't skip past that it was a good indicator the party wouldn't kill her before her enrage. Zurvan's is a bit more interesting because it usually ends up being either

1. You don't skip and most of the party dies, you know the party is trash with the mechanics and that staying longer will probably be a waste of time
2. You do skip it and know the party will probably be able to kill him right around the time the second soar pops up if they keep their dps up

The problem is that there's so many people running this right now that you get a lot of players who can't do either. I think it will improve eventually, but for now it's pretty bad.

People complaining as if Soar was a difficult mechanic that no one has ever seen. If you've done Ravana Ex, Thordan Ex or Nidhogg Ex you shouldn't have many problems, they have very similar mechanics.

On a 1 to 10 scale of required DPS to skip soar (1 being very low, 10 being very high), it's somewhere around 6. Having average players with one or two good ones is more than enough to skip it.
If you cannot skip it with 5 DPS, it means that at least one person isn't doing his/her job properly. It can be a DPS or two not knowing how to do a decent opener, the tank not playing agressively enough and overestimating the damage in P1, or (most importantly) a healer not DPSing in P1 even when a single regen can heal everything there's to heal in P1.

The soar skip is actually a very good way to make people realize where they are in terms of performances, and to teach healers how important doing DPS can be.
Not skipping soar can highlight some aspect that can be easily improved, driving the overall skill level of the community up.

So, instead of trying to blame everyone and be salty, take that opportunity to try and understand why you aren't skipping that mechanic which requires only a bit more DPS than the average to be skipped.
Trying to make an excuse like "we shouldn't skip soar because we'll still have to deal with it later in the fight" is a very poor way to avoid responsabilities and remain below average in terms of performances. Especially since Soar can be handled by assigning cardinal positions to only 6 members of the party (and even then, you'll still have 50% chances of getting an "easy mode Soar").

Also, regarding people using the 250 iLv as an argument, well, back in the days of Garuda, Titan and Ifrit, you were expected to farm them a bit before taking on the next one in order to get your weapon. Also, having the lastest two tiers of equipment was almost mandatory. So, please, don't be entitled and expect to be able to clear a duty in minimum iLv. Or gear yourself up, you have until june for that.


tl;dr: Zurvan is the perfect example of a midcore fight with a skip that acts as a DPS check just above the average level of player performances. So, drive yourself up instead of blaming the ones who actually want to perform a bit higher than usual. It's an Extreme fight, not unsync Sastasha. Especially you, healers who are just standing there in P1, reading your facebook feed until that phase if over.

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Originally Posted by Etrius

I'd like to ask the dev team and Yoshi-P: Could you please fix Zurvan Extreme, making it impossible to skip Soar?
Hardcore players need to learn on dealing with it

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There's no need for one to learn what one already knows how to do.
I think you meant "bad" players instead?

Soar is just crappy because on the narrow pattern 2-3 people get screwed with having to guess where the boundaries are, and being a step too far means you're venn diagrammed or dead.
No defined indicators for an entire side yet a binary safe-or-good-as-dead dive mechanic is lousy. Soar should only hit half as hard or not apply the vulnerability if you're only touching the outside 1/5 of the dives

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Soar only has 2 variations. It's one of the easiest divebombs in the game.

http://i.imgur.com/V1zUqaO.png

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In my data center 2 tanks goes to north position so healer didn't get damage in case red mark on 1 healer

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Originally Posted by Eul

In my data center 2 tanks goes to north position so healer didn't get damage in case red mark on 1 healer

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This was debated on Reddit recently, but most people got that wrong, saying there wasn't any upside with this strat. But in fact there is.

This isn't done so the healers don't take damage, as that achieve absolutly nothing since they have to AoE heal anyway. It happens most of the time, but it's just a side effect. The real goal is to give the "hard side" more room to move around during the "hard pattern". This way, if someone has to reposition quickly and end up putting the healers in their AoE, they will only take one hit. So, doing this trivialize the "hard pattern" and transforms the "hard side" into the easiest one.
The drawback is if the "easy side" screws up, resulting in the 2Tanks+1DPS taking 3 AoE in the face. But this should happen quite rarely as the positions for the "easy side" are... easy (duh). You just have to hug the AoE lines on the ground.

Of course, this is only doable with a standard comp', not with 5 DPS (which is why it's not really popular in the west).

My issue with Soar isnt so much that it can be skipped so early. The joke is when you see these sub 1k DPS players putting up PFs demanding Soar skips, instead of just working on improving their opener (all it takes to get a Soar skip, even with 4 DPS), or just dealing with the mechanic itself. It's yet again a reflection of the general playerbase that wants to be lazy and avoid actually learning and getting better.

That is one thing I find funny is going in with 5/6 dps and still get the same result pre fall as 4 dps. It really isn't a hard mechanic at all and we get by with no problem when it is my team but these groups demanding perfection are just cursed before they even begin.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Soar only has 2 variations. It's one of the easiest divebombs in the game.

http://i.imgur.com/V1zUqaO.png

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If you have two tanks, they can stack together to make more room for one side for soar. 7 tanks and one healer (though I think 6 tanks and 2 healers may be a lot easier) can make even more room if two tanks pair up for soaking two puddles per partner.

all I hear is people that cant skip complaining it should be made unskippable

p1 is just a dummy fight, do your opener correctly and you skip.

I wonder if this is also SE's stealth way of trying to push healers to dps, cos there's barely any healing at all to be done in p1

I didn't clear yet (first because it's hard to find a party for 2 healers, second because I'm 300% less hyped to defeat Zurvan than I was to defeat Sophia), but Southern Cross seems to be much more problematic in my experience. On the first Southern Cross after the tethers appears, someone always is bad positioned and get themselves killed. I've got parties where the DPS was so low that we did two Soars and two Demon Claws before the ice appears under the boss, and we did just fine with no deaths or people standing in the path of the dives.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

I wonder if this is also SE's stealth way of trying to push healers to dps, cos there's barely any healing at all to be done in p1

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I think it's more about how the fight overall is designed...it's pretty easy to be solo-healed overall. I guess they were going for a mechanics-based fight over a healing-intensive one or something, but it just doesn't look nearly as engaging as when I did Nidhogg at appropriate ilevel for the fight. (Back when it was released.)

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I think it's more about how the fight overall is designed...it's pretty easy to be solo-healed overall. I guess they were going for a mechanics-based fight over a healing-intensive one or something, but it just doesn't look nearly as engaging as when I did Nidhogg at appropriate ilevel for the fight. (Back when it was released.)

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Every fight is easy to solo-heal if peeps only take unavoidable damage.

Regardless of whether it's difficult or not, I just think it's pretty sad that groups of 5 or even at times 6 DPS can't skip it with little to no mechanics getting in the way of their "openers".
You dodge flare star twice. That's it. Free DPS to skip a mechanic and people can't do it. That's why the pf is so salty right now.

sad indeed. it took me 92 clears but I finally got my bird. it literally is no more complicated than some people are unable to do their opener properly.

I had one party where I had a quick look at peoples gear before pull - a mix of soph weapons and i250 gear. Won't lie, I already thought we prob won't skip soar here... skipped it no problem. Testament that gear that skill>> gear, as long as people know what they're doing, it's fine.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Every fight is easy to solo-heal if peeps only take unavoidable damage.

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As I said, I found Nidhogg to be somewhat challenging to heal as a minimum ilevel healer. Titan extreme and Ifrit Extreme were also a bit trying.

Note that I'm not speaking relative to "overall" difficulty, I mean more in comparing all the primals in a vacuum to one another. In that regard, Zurvan is much notably easier to solo heal, kind of like how Titan has always been hilariously easy to solo tank.