I know it's been talked about, but seriously. No Jump Potions, here is why.

I'm not going to get long winded here, but I will try to make the case as to why Jump Potions are downright NOT A GOOD THING for this game, using the primary comparison of WoW.

WoW's problem through the years is debatable I'm sure, but I believe that the problem was most certainly this: They removed PLAYER INVESTMENT in the game. Through the expansions, they started invalidating insane amounts of their own content, making everything super easy to achieve, and Jump Potions came out, causing new players NOT TO BE INVESTED in their time in this game! I put a crazy amount of time into my character on this game, and I've been playing since beta, the only reason why is because this game made we want to stay, it made me want to see more and do more.

(CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

The reason for that is because I became invested though my adventures, though the hours of grinding, though the story. I would make the case that making new players go through this process is not a bad thing at all, and having them being able to jump to level 50 or skip the story with a PAID ITEM, which I consider to be pay to win, something Yoshi P said he HATES, is going to start the beginning of the end of FFXIV, just the the mistakes WoW made by invalidating old content, making things to easy, and allowing a process that does not create player investment.

I'm asking as many players who feel the same way I do to speak out, as FFXIV has been better at one thing than any others: They will listen if we talk about it loud enough. Please speak your mind on this, and speak out.

I do no care for the jump potions myself, but they are hardly pay to win. Pay to Win gives you an advantage over other players. I will say though even though I don't like the idea Yoshida has a point. I've seen people in my own guild struggle with catching up and burn out. Let's face it's a lot of work to catch up to your friends now. And we are not just talking work in gearing out. There are real road blocks where you have to go through a lot of useless run here pet the chocobo type filler quests mixed in with the actual main story quest. If I recall going from the final vanilla ARR quest to get to heavensward is 100 quests. Some of which are awesome story some of which are filler. I can see how players get bogged down. Furthermore, not every player will buy a jump potion. There are players like you and I that will do all the quests. This will give the others that might leave if they had do all that options.

I cant say I agree, especially when you say it's not pay to win. You are getting an advantage over players who actually played the game to get to level 50, in exchange for money. That is pay to win. Or the very least, one definition of it.

You didn't need to make a whole new thread for this. If you disagree just put your opinion in the official thread for it...

I agree, no more stupid thread like this.

The problem with your argument can be flipped on its head: The players feel like they shouldn't invest in the game with so much content to go through just to get to the point the main portion of the players are at.


While I get the reluctance about having jump potions in the game, the fact remains that one of the most daunting barriers in the game right now is having to go through a lot of content to get to the main parts of the game where some friends who are also playing are at. As such, it becomes daunting and more than a few of my friends have stated that one of the major problems is that they feel there's too much to do to get up to my level. Even while I have offered to go through the content with them, not everyone in our gaming community wants to sit through a daunting amount of story to get to play with others.

Unfortunately, we're no longer in the time where people will gladly do the content and sink the time to do so. We are in a "now" mentality and that's how 2017 is. Games require to meld to the greater amount in order to survive. This will infuse the ability to spend some money in order to skip a fairly large portion of story and grind to allow users to play with friends.

And it isn't like they are getting an advantage, gear wise. They're simply getting a certain ILVL that will allow them to do the current content. And you need to review your definition of "Pay to Win" because it's clearly not the case.

P2W would be: You buy this item and you get a character fully leveled with fully maxed gear at that content.

Users still have to do the fights to get the gear. This just removes the grind portion.

And missing the most important part:

Recently, i created an alt on Odin and guess what? At level 25 i understand, that i don't want to go through boring/time consuming ARR content again. Add 1212121212 two-buttons gameplay to that as a bonus.

So, rest in peace, my Alt on Odin.

TL;DR Jump/Story-skip Potion is awesome for Alt characters.

I agree about having it for alts to be honest, but not for new players.

I can't help but think that the best place to provide such feedback is within the thread started by the game's community team on the topic. Keeps all feedback in one place, makes sure the community team knows where the feedback is located. Keeps the feedback from getting lost in the rest of the forums. /o\

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

And it isn't like they are getting an advantage, gear wise. They're simply getting a certain ILVL that will allow them to do the current content. And you need to review your definition of "Pay to Win" because it's clearly not the case.

P2W would be: You buy this item and you get a character fully leveled with fully maxed gear at that content.

Users still have to do the fights to get the gear. This just removes the grind portion.

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I guess it would depend on how you see things. I put effort when the game first came out to actually play the game and get to level 50. Hours. Days. Buying an item with money that allows you to bypass that effort over a person who actually does it is most certainly pay to win, or pay for an advantage at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Remus

You didn't need to make a whole new thread for this. If you disagree just put your opinion in the official thread for it...

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I apologize this thread offended you.

The only reason why you feel this way is because you ALREADY put in the time. The game was already interesting enough to make you want to play it years ago when you started playing the beta (Everyone here apparently has been playing since the beta).

So you care about the game, and you are proud of the time you invested. But new players, people who have never played this game before, does not share those feelings. They don't and they will never understand how important 2.0-3.55 was for you. and to be honest, new players won't be able to experience those parts of the game in the same way you did, since that content is old now.

If they decide to get the game, all they are going to want to do is play it. But they are not going to want to play an MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) game, and end up just being by themselves. While everyone is in the new areas, seeing new content, trying out the new jobs, experiencing the latest and the greatest things this game has to offer, They're stuck playing 3 year old content because they weren't fortunate enough to have already put 40, 80, 100+ hours into the game. so they WILL have to put in that time, which could take months (thus months of subscription fee cost) to do. Then new players will just stop caring, they won't be having any fun. It will be too hard to get into any of the dungeons cause no one will be doing them. They won't have anyone to talk to or play with. It won't be interesting, it won't be exciting, it will just be boring.

The old areas would be practically barren since it will only be new players in it, but they will be split between 2 Data centers (speaking of NA specifically) and 23 worlds. when they hop in the forums, everyone, EVERYONE will be talking about stormblood. Veterans won't be willing to help them. They may find some free companies but again, people in those free companies will be focused on stormblood.

So I understand how you feel, I do. I wasn't playing since the beta, But I have been playing for a long time. But I just have to take myself out of the equation for a second, and imagine myself as a new player to this game when stormblood comes out. Would I want to play all the old stuff in the game that no one else is playing anymore? Would I want to not have anyone to talk to, running dungeons by myself which could a long time just to get in them? or will I want to play the new and exciting stuff that EVERYONE is experiencing?

I'm going with the new. THAT is what will get me, and keep me interested. That is whats going to make me want to invest my time in it. That is how im going to meet new people and make new friends.

There is just too many reasons why not adding a way to get new players to the new content is a bad idea.

The jump potions sound more like a necessary evil to me. I'm not thrilled about the idea of someone suddenly going from nothing instantly to 50 and Heavensward, but then again, given that I'm leveling an alt to cover the other 3 specialists I don't have on my main crafter, there is a mountain of content to trudge through to get caught up to the rest of us. And we all know how the vast majority of us treat really old content (we blaze through it at warp 9 and start yelling when it's not a speed run). From a new player's perspective trying to enjoy the story and get the experience we did starting out, it isn't easy. As an example you'll probably have to make a party finder for it if you want to play through Castrum and Praetorium for story purposes. Enter the jump potion. New player skips all of that and is mostly caught up to the story, all ARR dungeons unlocked. I'm not happy because he skipped what I didn't get to, he's not satisfied because he has to watch the ARR story from an inn room. Then again, trying to do it the way we did back then today is like trying to do 20 mph on the freeway- all parties involved are going to have a bad time.

I'm sure if it hasn't been said already it will a hundred times, but this isn't WoW. The more the game progresses, in MSQ, in the number of dungeons, in gear level, etc, the greater the gap is going to be for new people to catch up to the people playing endgame. If they give up and leave, if the influx of new players is on a steady decline because of that, it's a lot of money lost. Bad business. From both a gameplay and a business standpoint, this needed to happen, whether we like it or not.

Oh boo hoo... I have been playing since launch and put some many hours into my character. Now newbies will be able to reasonably catch up to me skipping a grind and irrelevant content a lot of people dont want to do in a game that has gotten too huge with expansions and patches and keeps getting too big. I dont feel special anymore. Me e-achievements dont have the same weight anymore. Feel so outraged. Woe is me...

So far the big problem from the pro jump i see is that the game have lots of content.to this i have to say WTF.
If you go to play a moba ,lets say lol, you don't start in diamond pay or not.so why you so want it here.
If you think it will bring new people to the game then you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

If you go to play a moba ,lets say lol, you don't start in diamond pay or not.so why you so want it here

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MOBA != MMORPG

Entirely different beasts.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

So far the big problem from the pro jump i see is that the game have lots of content.to this i have to say WTF.
If you go to play a moba ,lets say lol, you don't start in diamond pay or not.so why you so want it here.
If you think it will bring new people to the game then you are wrong.

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That's not a good comparison. At all.

Getting Diamond does not unlock new content. Diamond is just a ranking, to show how good you are at the game, how many wins you have. and its to also group you into fights with other diamond or higher ranked players. But there is no part of the game that is gated behind a diamond ranking.

In this game, there is a slew of content that is gated behind months of story and leveling. No one is going to want to play old stuff when there's new stuff right there that everyone else is doing.

I used to dislike the idea of a jump potion but that's when it dawned on me that all the content i've done has all been relevant at the time, new players don't have this and they have to suffer through so much irrelevant crap at this point.

A jump potion is inevitable it's not a question of if anymore but when.

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Originally Posted by Razeluxe

I guess it would depend on how you see things. I put effort when the game first came out to actually play the game and get to level 50. Hours. Days. Buying an item with money that allows you to bypass that effort over a person who actually does it is most certainly pay to win, or pay for an advantage at the very least.

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We did that content when it was relevant and had loads of people doing it, now it's not the same. It's not putting in effort it's doing chores to play with everyone else.

If anything it's pay to get to start having the same experiance as older players without having to go though all the the stuff that no-one can be bothered with anymore. Yeah there is roulettes, but you tried to get a tank in Thousand Maws or AV that doesn't "dc" (or just flat out leaves) upon entering? Took me 3 hours once...

I fail to see what advantage these players would be getting... Outside of making you a bit jealous.

Jump potions are just the least work required, most profitable option for SE. And the masses will pay for them. Why not do it?

They could streamline the storyline, provide big experience bonuses for your first class you level, plenty of other things, but why do that when people will pay extra?

Well, this was quite easy to fix: all they had to do was to make the new expansion NOT story locked and new players would only have to do up to 3.0 and then ditch the rest: this way potion wasn't going to be needed and new players only had to finish 3.0 story up to big-knight-i-forgot-the-name and then move directly to SB. They did not.

So now we have people who will either push forward into tons of dead content that nobody will touch anymore because...uhm...it's dead? Or (most likely) stop before even bothering to reach level 70 because there are so many quests to bother with (we're talking about over 400 quests) that they rather go play some other games (we have plenty of mmorpgs nowadays, not just 2 or 3)

Suffice to say, those few people I know who were interested the slightest into the game immediately stopped bothering the moment I said "Mandatory Main Story". And when I told them about the story potion, they actually thought I was joking. I was not.

I'm still not sure what the 'advantage' is in this pay-2-win comparison for the jump potions. Final Fantasy XIV is a cooperative MMO, not a competitive one. You might argue about racing to beat content first; but the jump potions aren't going to place the user at end game, the earliest possible users will simply be starting on the new content same as you. In the end that's a self-created competition, not a primary feature of Final Fantasy XIV, so if the fact that brand new players are going to be able to start into Stormblood same as you (last I've heard was that Yoshi only guaranteed it would come out some time after the release of Stormblood, but correct me if they've updated that it would be a Stormblood launch item) is an issue, it's really not one based on a primary aspect of this game. The devs clearly want to focus on bringing players together, not having tiers of "upper crust" and "lower crust" players. If someone misses out on experiencing the story first hand (already happening to every single player running through the Castrum duties for the first time at present) as a choice, that's their loss, not their advantage. That content you don't want new players to be able to skip today is not what it was when you originally ran through it, due to the simple nature of an evolving MMO.

As for character investment; what's stopping new players from building that investment from Stormblood forward, and why is that a problem? Both of my characters will be turning 7 this year, and I absolutely do not evaluate their value based on how other players are playing the game; I value them on the time I invested in them. Out of the countless new players who have joined this year and last, a considerable number of them have inevitably been rushed (by friends/FC mates/impatient strangers) through content as quick as possible, skipping story as possible to get them caught up to where we are at present, essentially accomplishing the same thing as the jump potions but in a relatively more time consuming and convoluted manner. Same ends, different means.

People are already speaking out for and against this on the primary thread, so I'm unsure of what the need was in creating a new thread calling for something that's over 150 pages in progress on the same forum.

Why is the "advantage over other players" argument used for this sort of thing?

Compared to just about any other MMO, FFXIV is the least PVP oriented one. These jump potions will not bring players to the point where they offer any competition in anything. They still must grind quite a few levels and along with that, gear, to reach the point where they're relevant for end-game content.

Although I was averse to it at first, I'm come to agree that it's a nessessary evil to make sure the game stays alive as it adds more and more content. MMOs will always need new players, and the more time it takes for a new player to catch up to friends, the less likely they are to join because it would require a larger commitment. The new players that buy these jump potions likely wont even have joined the game otherwise.

My only concern now is what this new crowd will mean for the RMT problem. If they're willing to spend real money to speed up the process and save time, some of them are going to have both the expendable money and the motivation to spend more real money to buy gil.

Have none of you even listened to what the devs have said on the issue or just applied common sense.

1. This game is called Final Fantasy that carries meaning when you hear the words Final Fantasy you think rpg, good stories and good music The people who play Final Fantasy are there for just that therefore they will not skip it.
2. Adding on to point one while this is an MMO it plays like a single player game until you get the the current end game as to not alienate those that are here because the game is called Final Fantasy.
3. the potion itself will not be bundled nor is it coming out when the expansion hits it will either be in the next expansion or sometime during the 4.x saga.
4. The potion is two part one for story skip the other for job skip and both are supposed to be expensive already cutting down on the people who would want it as you have to pay 20 dollars for the base game another 20 for HW and 40 for stormblood on top of 15 a month for the sub.
5. The people who are buying jump potions are either people who already are playing the game and wanna level an alt up or want to start on a new server. The other type is the already experienced MMO player who is here because this game is an mmo and could care less about the story they just wanna get current endgame content while its still relevant. Most of those types will be joining the game in the coming months anyway to avoid paying all that money and have already done their research on the game so they aren't the "bad" players everyone seems to be so scared of

As like many others when this item was first brought up I was super against it and talked about it very negatively. Now I'm not as bothered by the items purpose. I see it as a way for the devs to keep the continuity of the story and keep it meaningful for everyone who enjoys that aspect of FFXIV. What I don't like and really hope Yoshi and team already have countermeasures for is, allowing the people who use the potions to gain all the achievements, titles, mounts and minions that come with the things they are unlocking. If they don't at least fix that then that's pretty crap.

I've said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. It isn't pay to win. P2W would be paying $25 for a finished Raid weapon or $40 for a special skill (Hallow Bolt - PLD Only - 5 Sec CD - 1000 Potency - Mogstation only, Ball Room Edicate: Ass Kicking - $40). That would be p2w. Giving someone, who will by the way be needed to stay subbed so this game don't sink, a boost past old empty dungeons/quests and getting them to 10 levels under the cap and some basic armor and spending money, is just good business sense.


I never get this mentality of people taking the game so seriously that they want to suck the fun out of it for new folks. Its like watching an old conservative congressman rail about poor people grifting the system and that they need to pull themselves up by the boot straps and on and on, ignoring the higher difficulty they face, not because its harder, but because there is more for them to do.

Yes we all did it, we all leveled and did all these quests. I've been in this game since beta, I have had years to do these things, if these folks want to play with their friends they have to wade through literally years of content. Yes, yes it doesn't take years to do, but the feeling of pressure to get it all done so you can move on to the content you bought the game to play is terrible. And not everyone has the "free time" (ie no life) to burn through years of content to get to the goal.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

As like many others when this item was first brought up I was super against it and talked about it very negatively. Now I'm not as bothered by the items purpose. I see it as a way for the devs to keep the continuity of the story and keep it meaningful for everyone who enjoys that aspect of FFXIV. What I don't like and really hope Yoshi and team already have countermeasures for is, allowing the people who use the potions to gain all the achievements, titles, mounts and minions that come with the things they are unlocking. If they don't at least fix that then that's pretty crap.

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its only the stuff that is literally unlocked from doing the MSQ, like the black chocobo mount. the potion wont give you anything that an achievement that you get from outside the MSQ grants, for example the pony mounts or like the cute cat and dog minions that you get from doing the side quest in La Noscea. that wouldn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

its only the stuff that is literally unlocked from doing the MSQ, like the black chocobo mount. the potion wont give you anything that an achievement that you get from outside the MSQ grants, for example the pony mounts or like the cute cat and dog minions that you get from doing the side quest in La Noscea. that wouldn't make any sense.

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Yes but if you use the leveling potion you would get the achievement for it and the titles. It should not give anything at all other than the levels and story skip should just give you completion nothing more.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Yes but if you use the leveling potion you would get the achievement for it and the titles. It should not give anything at all other than the levels and story skip should just give you completion nothing more.

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You sound dumb. You're basically saying "you can't have that super common minion because you didn't talk to that npc and collect the 10 bear butts like I did 2 years ago. Just an attempt to "weed out" those filthy jumpers

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

snip

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This is flawed.

1) I agree that it is indeed a final fantasy game (like, duh right?). But there are PLENTY of people who end game raid savage clear world firsters that literally skips every cutscene they come across. Who knows absolutely nothing about the story or why we are even fighting any of the things we fight. and that's fine, it works for them. So no, not everyone is here for the story.

2) No. no. This game by no means play like a single player game at all. I don't join guilds or free companies in SPG's. I don't have to spend 30+ minutes, even hours at times, sitting a in a queue to do a story dungeon just to continue playing the game. I don't have to worry about the skill level of a random stranger I'm playing with, and whether or not we will actually make it through the content. I don't have to be griefed by another player who sees my green leaf, examines my gear, calls me scrub, and leaves the dungeon, forcing me to have to wait even longer until someone else to come and do the same thing. So while the story is centered around each of us like its a single player game, The actual gameplay i that of a MMO, because it actually is a MMO.


3) There hasn't been any confirmed news that explicitly says the jump potion will not be implemented at the start of the expansion. There hasn't been any confirmed or explicit news saying when exactly it will be implemented, or even if it will be implemented at all.

4) facts

5) These are not the only people that will be buying this potion. In fact, Yoshi-P's statements regarding the jump potion was specifically centered around the idea that the jump potion was for new players.

Yoshi-P:

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Intentions Behind Implementing the Jumping Potion

The main reason we decided to implement the "Jumping Potion" was to "make it easier for the newer players to catch up with the rest of the community."

The current trend in the gaming market is for games to be easily accessible, played in short periods of time, and played and stopped whenever the players want. This is the exact opposite of an MMORPG in a sense.

I am not saying we want to make MMORPGs follow this trend; however, our job is to bolster operations so that as many new players as possible are able to play with everyone.

If an MMORPG is not able to recruit new players, all that is left is for the game to stabilize and eventually go on a decline. At that moment, the type of operation of the game would shift to one that works hard to slow down the pace of decline. To prevent the game from reaching that point, we would like to prepare as much as we can for the potential new players that may be interested in the game.

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That last line is my favorite because it speaks volumes.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You sound dumb. You're basically saying "you can't have that supper common minion because you didn't talk to that npc and collect the 10 bear butts like I did 2 years ago. Just an attempt to "weed out" those filthy jumpers

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If you want any response from me you will rethink how you address me.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Yes but if you use the leveling potion you would get the achievement for it and the titles. It should not give anything at all other than the levels and story skip should just give you completion nothing more.

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But that would just end up punishing players for deciding to skip content, when it shouldn't feel like a punishment at all.

Maybe its because i don't see the story MSQ achievements, minions and mounts as important at all because they are literally just story stuff. Like they're not noteworthy in the slightest. The dragon mount was at first, but that was only the case since there were like only 5 flying mounts back then. That's even old news now.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

But that would just end up punishing players for deciding to skip content, when it shouldn't feel like a punishment at all.

Maybe its because i don't see the story MSQ achievements, minions and mounts as important at all because they are literally just story stuff. Like they're not noteworthy in the slightest. The dragon mount was at first, but that was only the case since there were like only 5 flying mounts back then. That's even old news now.

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They are skipping a majority of the games content in seconds, I dont think withholding any achievement, title, minion or mount is that horrible. It doesnt matter if its old news its still an accomplishment of doing it regardless of the date.

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Originally Posted by Razeluxe

I'm not going to get long winded here, but I will try to make the case as to why Jump Potions are downright NOT A GOOD THING for this game, using the primary comparison of WoW.

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You have a valid point that new players will not be as invested in the game as you are. This is undeniable.

However, if FF14 does not add jump potions, there will be NO MORE new players. Well, a few will still, but not nearly enough. And the game will die.
Pick your poison.

To me, jump potions are a solution to a problem.
It comes with some reservations, but those reservations are minor in comparison to the problem that the jump potions are solving.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

If you want any response from me you will rethink how you address me.

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I don't particularly care. it is how you come across you have two options continue sounding like that or change makes no difference to me.


@RaijinSupreme
1. I know i included those types of people they are the experienced MMO players
2. This game plays like a single player with multiplayer aspects for as long as your following the MSQ yes guilds Fc and stuff like that are here but not needed to get a great deal of content out of this game look at most reviews to this game they all come across as saying " Hey FF fans this is an ff game and you don't really have to worry about that MMO title attached because it doesn't feel like that at all". It only starts to play like an MMO when you hit cap and start your tome grind and primal farms and daily quest routines.
3. recent interviews have already confirmed that the potions with either come during the 4.x series or the next expansion.
4. I am aware but again interviews with the man have already shown that the potions target the types of people I said along with newer players who got convinced to play by their friends. though its there as an option as the game grows and we get to having 5 and 6 expansions as you quoted him saying

Why did this need its own thread? Isn't there already a thread about jump potions like.. two threads down the list on the first page?

I find jump potions more useful for people who want alts. I don't know why people keep overlooking that. The junk in between A Realm Reborn and Heavensward is just that: junk. 100 quests of garbage. I want to play an alt, but I don't want to go through all of the story and all of the unlocks again. It's tedious. If the jump potions were available when I started, I wouldn't have used one because I wanted to experience the game at least once. I'm sure many new players will and do feel the same.

So this whole argument of "new players will be terrible" is moot because most new people will probably not use it due to the fact that they would miss the story entirely. I don't know many people who start playing Final Fantasy XIV that aren't invested in the story. Story is why you play a Final Fantasy game.

I imagine jump potions will get used way more by veterans who just want to make an alt than brand new players who know nothing about the game. Why would you want to subject yourself to that anyway and start the game on max level with the story all done and have no idea what's going on? People are blowing this way out of proportion.

Besides, veterans pretty much have their established group of people they run with already. Even if brand new players DO use a jump potion you'll more than likely never run in to them anyway as they still have that gear hurdle to get over in order to start the raiding and high end content you're doing. So if someone chooses to spend money and skip everything, why does it concern you? It's their decision, not yours. And you'll more than likely never be affected at all.

It's not a win/win situation as many believe. Someone is going to lose. If the potions are implemented, those who want to run outdated content will have a harder time than they do already, and knowing they will have this difficult time will keep them from subscribing. If they are not, the game also loses potential new subscribers from those who don't want to do the grind. I'm sure SE has looked at it from this perspective and will likely go with the decision they feel they will keep/gain the most amount of subs.

I am more on the side that wishes SE would trim the fat on old content, and release the potions only for those who get at least one class to 50. Something just doesn't seem right about being a new subscriber, using a potion, and your dungeon clear log is all checked out and you still have yet to go inside one. If, and that is a big IF, sh*t hits the fan after they release the potions, you can best believe I will be one of the first to say, "I told you so." If the community actually prospers from it, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

I wonder how many players who are against the JPs because people wont understand the story, of those people how many have yelled at new players in the past, "HEY! Skip the CS, you can watch them in the INN!" I guess the story is vital until it gets in their way.