DF Tanks and Whm

How often do u run across tanks pugging Alex normal that tend to stay in defensive stance the entire time and can hardly pull 700 dps or WHM that likes to spam medic II and pull aggro.

If your not very sure of yourself as a Tank or if you don't know/trust the healers, I think its fairly common for Tanks to stay in defense the entire time.

Well... its DF, so yeah. You're not always going to get top tier players. That's kind of the point of DF. I main Dark Knight and I tend to stay in Grit for the entire fight unless I know the healers personally. Does that make me bad? Maybe. Do I care? Nope.

http://i.imgur.com/fHzFbPK.gif

This is not exclusive to Alexander

Honestly, I have more of an issue with tanks who think that they don't need their tank stance because they saw someone else do it that way once and all they are concerned about is their DPS. I'd rather a tank play defensively until they're sure of both their and the parties skill before experimenting. A tank pulling 700 dps is not the end of the world. Sure, there are players that can put out higher numbers, but if you don't want to roll the dice in DF, then go in with a premade.

Now a DPS pulling sub-500 dps in full 250+ gear, that's a complaint I can get behind.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

Well... its DF, so yeah. You're not always going to get top tier players. That's kind of the point of DF. I main Dark Knight and I tend to stay in Grit for the entire fight unless I know the healers personally. Does that make me bad? Maybe. Do I care? Nope.

http://i.imgur.com/fHzFbPK.gif

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chances are if the healer is bad, even grits wouldn't save you.

about as often as you see dps who pull less then 1k dps and any job that cant dodge anything, bad players are spread across all jobs

Breaking news: some people are bad at video games.

More at 11.

It's DF. Why would I want to make a complete stranger panic heal me outside of tank stance because MA DEEPS?!?!?!?

Nothing I've ever ran in DF, minus one A8 run, has everfailed because of missed a dps check because I stayed in tank stance the whole fight.

Raid finder is a different story. It "SHOULD" have a different caliber of players wanting to play their class better.

700 dps for a tank is bad?
In my entire time with df/pf I have only a single time seen a tank that did more (800, in Sophia EX), usually I'm more than satisfied when tanks reach 400 dps.
I'm amazed by your standards :O

I have almost my full BiS (missing A12S pieces and Refurbisher hates me) as a tank. I know almost every fight in the game extremely well; all the bosses and many of the best ways to pull trash mobs. I can pull great numbers in Savage


And I will stay in tank stance with random healers in the DF and PF.


If they prove they can heal fine, or are DPSing appropriately, then I'll tank in DPS stance. But most random healers are...not good, to put it nicely. Its just easier to be tanky and make sure the run succeeds rather than push numbers and risk wiping (just a note, this applies more to synced content than the current Expert dungeons and ones that have no gear sync. Bosses and even most trash pulls in those are too weak to do much to me with my gear even in DPS stance and a meh healer. But, I will switch back to tank stance if I have to to prevent a wipe.)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

700 dps for a tank is bad?
In my entire time with df/pf I have only a single time seen a tank that did more (800, in Sophia EX), usually I'm more than satisfied when tanks reach 400 dps.
I'm amazed by your standards :O

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I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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Duty finder is not for you.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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Lol... K.
http://i.imgur.com/BJ9vUSP.gif

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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ok /10char

its not that hard lol, I don't main a tank but can easily pull off 1K+ dps with with ilvl250 as a MT in alex A9-A12

Spamming AoE heals when only the tank is taking damage is one of my biggest healer pet peeves. It is one of the few things that I will actually call players out on. Fortunately, it doesn't happen that much. In DF though, I take what I get, and only mention anything if something someone is doing is screwing up the run, or to discuss things after a wipe.

I always assume a tank who remains in defensive stance is feeling things out. I really don't care about his/her DPS output. Not in a PUG anyway. And I actually appreciate tanks who gets a feel for their group, especially their healer before kicking it into high gear.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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1k? In DF? You made my day.

Its not a problem to do that as a tank BUT first you need healers who can heal the tank out of tank stance, thats hard to find in the DF. Then you need tanks who know how to play their classes right and most important they have to know the fight exactly what is also a hard thing to find in the DF. You also need dps who are able to play properly. If all of these things fit you'll have your tank with 1k+ dps.

Now we have the typical DF example of a group: a tank who is not able to use his cooldowns properly because he doesn't know the fight or because he doesn't give a rats ass about that, a healer who is so dps horny that he forgets to heal the tank or a healer who is so scared that he always overheals like hell that the tank can never leave tank stance even if he would be good...and not to mention the lovely dps who are ignoring all mechanics and deal 0-800 dps or they deal a shitload of dps, do mechanics right but totaly ignore their emnity reducing skills. :rolleyes:

If you want DF or PF tanks to pull out 1k+ dps, play tank yourself and don't do it with friends, do it in DF or PF with random heals and dps and not only once because then you can be lucky and get a good group.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

1k? In DF? You made my day

If you want DF or PF tanks to pull out 1k+ dps, play tank yourself and don't do it with friends, do it in DF or PF with random heals and dps and not only once because then you can be lucky and get a good group.

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sadly I do that every week for pug alex normal, and healing is never a issue when tanking in offensive stance. The problem is when ur not mt, and the other tank likes to turtle.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

its not that hard lol, I don't main a tank but can easily pull off 1K+ dps with with ilvl250 as a MT in alex A9-A12

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Considering the fights are rated for i230, you're 'overgeared.'

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

sadly I do that every week for pug alex normal, and healing is never a issue when tanking in offensive stance. The problem is when ur not mt, and the other tank likes to turtle.

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I'm one of those sorts of tanks. Why? Because I know DF is a roll of the dice and I prefer to err on the side of caution when I'm dealing with randomers. Now if it was a full premade group then sure, I'll go hell for leather, but if it's DF I'm playing it safe in Alexander. That and for Alexander I'm normally healing it rather than tanking it.

chances are if they can't heal u while ur in offensive stance, ur still gonna die with defensive stances on.

Why tank should care with amount of dps? -_- I only care with it IF I become as OT.

Considering as a 257 pld, in just sword oath on a dummy, I can only stay at 1300 for 3:15 before running entirely out of TP, I'm not sure how you can expect this to be a normal thing in DF.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Considering as a 257 pld, in just sword oath on a dummy, I can only stay at 1300 for 3:15 before running entirely out of TP, I'm not sure how you can expect this to be a normal thing in DF.

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u can recover ur tp during downtime

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

chances are if they can't heal u while ur in offensive stance, ur still gonna die with defensive stances on.

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Yeah, but if you have healers like that taking tank stance off just makes it even worse for only a small gain. You might clear it 30 seconds faster IF you don't end up dead and possibly wipe the group. 30 seconds isn't worth it since if you die or whole party wipes you lost the already small gain you tried to get and made it actually way slower clear rate.

I've seen too many healers in DF that cannot even keep tanks alive with tank stance on. I've seen MTs slowly die from no heals many many times (being main healer I scream on the inside when I am on DPS or OT and MT is dying and I can't heal them lol). Maybe your data center has more consistent healers so I mean if you have success with it go ahead, but in my experience seems not worth it to try.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

u can recover ur tp during downtime

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But your dps does down over time, especially downtime. Sure you gain tp, but you will already have lower dps. so saying this doesnt solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

chances are if they can't heal u while ur in offensive stance, ur still gonna die with defensive stances on.

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That can actually depend. PLD and DRK, that tank stand is a built in 25% reduction in incoming damage - WAR is just a built in healing buff and more HP, so there is no reduction. If there's new players, or players being greedy and standing in bad, or just derping or even lagging, not having the stance on can contribute to a wipe. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

But your dps does down over time, especially downtime. Sure you gain tp, but you will already have lower dps. so saying this doesnt solve the problem.

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ya but we're not talking about max dps, we're talking about acceptable dps.

go ahead and kick/heckle me because I was in tank stance so my DPS isn't "acceptable". I have no issue filing that report.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

ya but we're not talking about max dps, we're talking about acceptable dps.

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From my point of view as a PLD, you are asking for max DPS. Which tank are you getting "easily over 1k dps in a9-12" cuz I bet it isnt pld

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

From my point of view as a PLD, you are asking for max DPS. Which tank are you getting "easily over 1k dps in a9-12" cuz I bet it isnt pld

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any tank can do it

You will hardly find people that bring out jobs full potential in DF, even at level 60.

I've already explained why in an older thread.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

any tank can do it

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Considering most dps (tanks included) pad their numbers with AOE damage, and pld only has circle of scorn for an aoe, you aren't likely to see a PLD that can match the numbers of a DRK or WAR outside of a training dummy.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

its not that hard lol, I don't main a tank but can easily pull off 1K+ dps with with ilvl250 as a MT in alex A9-A12

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No, its not if you have healers who can keep you up and keep the party up. If your healers, DPS or other tank are derps, standing in stuff, not killing adds, etc, and you don't get heals tanking, you're going to die. Tank stance can save you there (especially on WAR with those OP self heals in Defiance).

Also

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

WHM that likes to spam medic II and pull aggro.

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If you're a good tank, no-one in DF will pull aggro from you. Even when full-on DPSing. If you lose aggro, its all on you.

Heck, even in Savage the main tank is expected to keep aggro and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Considering most dps (tanks included) pad their numbers with AOE damage, and pld only has circle of scorn for an aoe, you aren't likely to see a PLD that can match the numbers of a DRK or WAR outside of a training dummy.

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Well, mt group's PLD can do over 1800 DPS in A9S, main tanking (so not even padding with Scorn). 260 weapon too. WHM goes AST for 9S, but he's basically just AoEing his cards ( :( ). Oh, and no MCH (extra sadface)

Sure, I'm pulling well over that as WAR, and DRK can do more as well, but to say PLD can't do well over 1K DPS is silly

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Well, mt group's PLD can do over 1800 DPS in A9S, main tanking (so not even padding with Scorn). 260 weapon too.

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Not sure how, I cant even get that over 3 minutes on a dummy.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If you're a good tank, no-one in DF will pull aggro from you. Even when full-on DPSing. If you lose aggro, its all on you.

Heck, even in Savage the main tank is expected to keep aggro and DPS.

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This actually goes back to the party.
DPs and healers have abilities to reduce their aggro generation. It helps tanks a lot, but sadly you won't find people using them regularly in DF because they don't think they are necessary.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If you're a good tank, no-one in DF will pull aggro from you. Even when full-on DPSing. If you lose aggro, its all on you.

Heck, even in Savage the main tank is expected to keep aggro and DPS.

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not if u have whm that can't control their aggro by spamming medicia II and not using shroud.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

go ahead and kick/heckle me because I was in tank stance so my DPS isn't "acceptable". I have no issue filing that report.

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And you'll be told "playstyle differences"