Wanderers Minuet fail

So i have abandoned my bard. I loved her. The mobility, the insta casts, the songs... then like a bad Nickleback tune Wanderer's Minuet appeared on my bars... Oh 30% up on dps, oh cast times on all my abilities... oh...

Maybe if we had WM from beginning i'd know that bard was just a blm with songs... but the happy go lucky play style i'd done for 52 levels is gone. I can hardly kite anymore with these cast times, i am more like a mage than an archer.

thanks for 52 happy levels, and before you say get used to it, umm no thanks, i have tried, and i just hate it. Feels like you dipped me in molasses, patted me on the head and said now go play... UGH.

yeah tis this thread again, i am late to the party i know... but i just got my bard to 60, so really i did try... i tried to like it. Back to summoner til they mess that up /sigh.

Welcome to 52 bard and yes not just you who give up their class the moment their class become semi turret.

Luckily i came from blm class so when the WM kick in, i get used to it pretty fast considering blm is even more turret than WM bard

I generally play caster classes. Especially healers. I'm used to long casting times. So for me Bard and Machinist weren't completely alien to me when I got to 52 with them. Still I agree with you though. I also loved the run around style of them pre 52.

Biggest issue to me is, that these 2 jobs play style changes completely. The other jobs don't change that much, if at all.

Edit:
Been noticing that in POTD many Bards and Machinists don't even use Wanderer's Minuet or Gauss Barrel.

I'm only a Lvl50 bard but lvl60 caster. I never realised that Wanderer's Minuet was compulsory. That sucks, I enjoy the fast play every now and then.

It's pretty "meh", considering how low the actual DPS gain from it turns out to be - 30% on all abilities sounds great, until you realize you lose 100 potency per autoattack. If they hadn't locked the new abilities behind it, I think it would just be a flat DPS loss >_>

I thought it was going to be a DPS loss using w/o it, but it's hard to not use the 30% dmg buff from it. It also locks out of empyrean arrow(54) and iron jaws(56) which is one of the best weaponskills for bard. I just look at it as this playing 60 bard, reapplying venom/wind which is 140TP loss every 18 secs if I don't have WM on or used iron jaws, sacrifice 60TP which resets both venon/wind while WM is active. The other, using Heavy Shot while barrage is up w/o the 30% buff from WM and get the 150 potency from the 3 hits alone or used Empyrean Arrrow while WM is active and get 230 potency from the 3 hits.

I thought that it would be great to move around while DPSing, but by doing that before they made the auto attack changes, you won't hit the mobs unless you have the camera setting to character(walking back is horrible and can lead to mistakes and have to literally change the camera to turn the character around, not fun).

hmm... there are still instant cast procs on several skills + the fact that crit/sks is best for brd your cast time will strongly decrease with max level and decent gear. on the other hand you are good to go for dailys like 50, main, level or primals. don't give up on a class you like at all stick to it at least for content which is capped at 50. - my main was brd as well, i cried and hated the wm-change in the first place as well... but i got used to it over the time and like i said for dailys he's still good to go. ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

hmm... there are still instant cast procs on several skills + the fact that crit/sks is best for brd your cast time will strongly decrease with max level and decent gear...

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I tried bard, I was one mainly in 1.0 with being a WHM so I wanted to get the new story and try it out. The instant cast procs made it fun but I quickly got annoyed when I would have bloodletter reset twice while I was busy firing another WS due to the cast times. Personally like the story, and enjoyed what the new damage skills gave

I may go back to it, I never tried to focus on sks, but I did notice when an AST gave me a little buff my world changed for a few seconds and it wasn't so bad.

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Originally Posted by sarahnight

So i have abandoned my bard. I loved her. The mobility, the insta casts, the songs....

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The mobility part I never really got. Even before 52, I didn't go running and jumping around. I found myself stationary a lot. Maybe this is in savage content? That I don't do. The instant casts though I did get annoyed with like I said, maybe if they allowed it to be used within the casting. Healing though I got to say it was nice not having a bard jump around all the time getting hit by things just to jump out of my range...that's a personal thing though.

Songs is another thing, we have TP recovery in a game that doesn't require it for about 80% of the content, same with MP. Sure there's some situations a mage that needs to raise a bunch, a overpower happy warrior or an aoe spamming dps. Otherwise, I liked Warden's, though I never used it except on a warriors berserk.

Maybe there's an even ground here? I get the use for WM, you sing a song to enhance your arrow, you stand and steady your aim. Though as an archer we should be skilled enough to walk and shoot. I've ran into a dead end..what could be done to make it so that when you stand still you sing your song / steady your aim and do extra damage but if you decide to move around a bunch you loose the dmg boost but gain the mobility. Yes, you'd have to take the DPS loss for moving and accept that but you can toggle as you go along. If not, that's as bad as those mages who ask for Cleric to go away, base it all on MND and want us to keep the dmg boost. Get something you need to have something else taken away.

If you are running around alot on bard when not being forced to move for mechanics, you are playing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

The mobility part I never really got. Even before 52, I didn't go running and jumping around. I found myself stationary a lot. Maybe this is in savage content? That I don't do.

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It's not as much about being stationary as it is about cooldown management. Before lv52 Brd is a very fast played class, it is able to use his skills instantly, freeing up time to pop up to 3 non-global-cooldowns between them, which used to be what the real good Brds did to maximise their dps. Now with WM, you are barely able to fit in 1 non-GCD between skills. This results in a very clunky feeling on lv52+ Brd. Mch seem to have it a bit better since they were designed with that playstyle in mind from the start, whereas for Brd it feels like they just went and slapped Mch ideas onto them to make those 2 classes use the same playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Songs is another thing, we have TP recovery in a game that doesn't require it for about 80% of the content, same with MP. Sure there's some situations a mage that needs to raise a bunch, a overpower happy warrior or an aoe spamming dps.

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In savage content you won't find a lot of groups without Brd/Mch, precisely because of those skills. Especially during progression, while healers don't have a measure of the amount of heals needed yet, the MP recovery can be very helpful to get past some tight spots and see more of the fight. Additionally, Brd's Foe Requiem and Mch's turrets are a huge dps boost and should be used whenever possible.
Outside of savage raiding, I agree, you don't need MP/TP recovery very often, still it's a nice thing to have some utility for group content.

I hated it when I first got it but at max lvl with SS Acc and Crit melds it is awesome. You need to get geared properly and you will see how great WM actually is.

I really like the bard flow at 60, but do admit it took a while to get into it. IMO the "casting" thing shoulda been MCH thing and bard shoulda been left alone though. It changed the playstyle too much instead of adding in new things to the playstyle. Overall its been a gripe i have with WoW in general that xpac to xpac sometimes the playstyles change completely/dramatically and in a way this happened to bard. if they wanted to still do "stand still" things coulda done procs that happened if you used lets say 3 GCDs without moving or something, or maybe even keep WM as it is at the moment but make it an actual song so its more like a DPS CD than a completely new design to the playstyle. (ie you would still be moving around lvl 50 ish bardlike unless you are pushing damage via using WM, whilde deciding this is more beneficial than popping Foe etc)

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

pop up to 3 non-global-cooldowns between them

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doesn't that clip the gcd slightly? still a dps gain in some situations?

I felt the same way, dropped BRD and started healing to level up on shorter que times never looked back. I really liked BRD too but IMHO you can't change the basic feel of a class that harshly so late in the game, I invested so much time on BRD I really loved the mobility.

In case you think it's odd I don't mind cast times on heals since it played that way from level 1, not fun loving kite to turret starting 2 levels into expac.

Except for very specific situations, there is no and has never been any reason for a BRD to constantly run around or kite anything. Actually, since nearly every single monster in the game has ranges attacks, kiting isn't even a thing anyway.

In the specific situations that DO require more movement, BRD is in the lovely position to be able to turn off WM so they can keep dpsing while they go do mechanic X before turning it back on later on.

People just make this out to be a big change when really, it isn't. Pre-WM gameplay and after-WM gameplay is 99.9% the same.

I never understood and always found it weird whenever I saw Bards that seemed to not be able to stand still. Why do you feel is good to just run around while shooting arrows? In RL an archer does not just run around the fields shooting his bow and arrow they use stealth and cover since they are weaker than other classes with heavier gear. Play the role not the animations.

Hey when i speak about mobility, i don't mean spazzing out all over the place, i loved being able to kite something and never let it touch me... that does not feel possible post WM... i am glad some of you got used to it, but there's the rub right there. YOU HAD TO CHANGE completely the way you used to play, because of one skill that was introduced at level 52... Doesn't that feel like hey new player you get this fun fluid job, and then as you are approaching endgame, they say oh just kidding, you're now a blm with songs really, enjoy the dps up... sorry about making you change how you play, and get used to when things proc all over again.

MMM, for me like i said, i tried, i got to 60, i even geared up: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...cter/13464793/. I just think WM was a bad design choice for Bards, at least for my bard.

back in the old days, I mained bard and blm - the reason being, they were so different as far as speed and movement went. I didn't see much point sticking with bard after 60, it was too similar, but eventually dropped blm as well becaue it was just too frustrating for new/pug content. I found neither enjoyable. It's a pity they managed to destroy both classes for the old players. Maybe they'll will wake up to themselves in 4, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Except for very specific situations, there is no and has never been any reason for a BRD to constantly run around or kite anything.

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Well i think for the most of Brds its not the question if its really necessary -
it was just a unique thing on that cls which made it fun to play.

not everyone is 120% in endgame-progress there are casuals and roleplayers as well.

just my thoughts. ^^

yeah i dont get it either, i mean....

- running around jumping 360 then circling the enemy thinking like they are doing matrix stuff in the mid of D Day omaha beach moment - this is so realistic i love archer class!!!!

- no sudden movement, stay calm, focus, 1 sure hit at 1 time - totally not realistic, wtf, this archer sucks

i mean.... i never see in real life archer doing barrage while jumping around like mental or am i have been fed by propaganda bullshit from tv lol

It's not about realism it's about fun.

I don't recall seeing anyone punch a dragon to death with their bare hands wearing a Santa hat and a leopard print speedo IRL, but I've seen that in this game too.

I love the Bard and I also love running around for no reason. :C

First time playing around with WM was a freaking pain, but now that I got used to it, it's more fun than ever. Krietors guide helped me appreciate the skill a lot more. The numbers are bigger (who doesn't enjoy high DPS!?), the rotation is more challenging and there is overall more to keep an eye on (even when standing still).

It takes a lot of practice to turn Menuet on and off mid-fight but when

- Blood for Blood
- Internal Release
- Hawk's Eye
- Raging Strikes

- Sidewinder & Empyreal Arrow

are on cooldown, you have 15 whole seconds where you can turn off WM and go ham again. The rotation can be a lot of fun but also takes quite a few hours to really get used to.

I am kinda wishing for a spell in the next addon that lets me use Menuet for 15 seconds without the casttime, but that's wishful thinking...

hmm you are still stance-dancing though?

I am too lazy to do the actual math but I imagine I am doing much better with dancing on certain AOE heavy fights.

Also a higher APM kinda helps me focus more and makes BRD more fun.

It's a good mix of being tryhard and playing the more fun pre 60 BRD.

When higher DPS is needed, not switching will also be easier.

Because of this topic I went and raised my level 4 archer to level 30+ (thanks to Palace of the dead) and have tried out WM for the first time.

The cast times definitely chance the pace of things, but at the same time it fees familiar to me since I spend a lot of time on Summoner. Even though the new skills are nice, I feel that its a big slap in the face for bards who enjoyed "always moving" play style.

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Originally Posted by jmanfrw

It's not about realism it's about fun.

I don't recall seeing anyone punch a dragon to death with their bare hands wearing a Santa hat and a leopard print speedo IRL, but I've seen that in this game too.

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Haha You are right it is funny

I main ARC these days, pulls more my own weight up to sophia ex.

And doing largely more than the required dps without WM as BRD up to A10S.

I'm pretty sure I'll start a chain of rage comments here, as it happens in DF regularly, but well, it's a game, it's supposed to be fun :)

And no WM with this, I have my BLM and my SMN if I want a caster.

This is a game. If you aren't having fun, you are doing it wrong.
If you aren't running savage and the latest EX, then you can still jump on your BRD for some fun time and just skip WM. You can still come close on dps. That 30% boost is really maybe around 10% (was a dps loss when it was 20% boost). If you actually put in some effort in your rotation, you will exceed the dps of 90% of the WM bards you come across. If you actually play Foes, your party will be happy, and you will still get comms.

See how you do in SSS without WM. That will give you some idea whether you manage to still do reasonable dps.

If you want Savage and EX, kinda stuck with WM unless you go with an understanding premade.

If you do need to move to avoid an aoe put feint on your bar. I use it on almost every optical sight in a11s unless i have a straight shot proc, bloodletter, sidewinder, misery end, flaming arrow..... bard has lots of movement.

Feint is anyway quite useful even if you're not moving since it's not a cast, so if you don't have a straight shot proc when Empyreal Arrow resets, you can use it (Empyreal Arrow is not a gcd, that's the point, so basically if you do that you get a free skill every 15s or so).

But I don't really think that's the issue here :)

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I was strongly considering maining a bard until I learned that Wanderer's Minuet existed.

I understand if some people want a ranged support with cast times. I don't understand why both bard and machinist need to mimic each other. Why not give only one of the two the cast time stance and give players a choice in playstyle?

Wanderer's Minuet is not as bad as it feels like initially. The cast times are the best kind you can get: short, and you can clip the cast by ~0.50s to move before the cast finishes. With Feint, Straighter Shot procs, Stance-Dancing and Repelling Shot you still maintain a plethora of mobility.

I did not like the changes at first either, but I got accustomized to them and they started growing up on me as well. As a pre- and post-HW Bard main, I'll have to say the change was necessary. In ARR, Bard could effectively deal with most raid wide mechanics with almost no DPS loss, while the class was not exactly difficult to play either. SE had a choice of either changing the way they design fight, or change Bards, and they went for the obvious, easier choice of the two.

Its always funny reading the replies on this topic, they are basically all; "well at first I hated WM, more then anything, was the worst thing ever made, but eventually I got used to it".......
Ok so that's the defense?! By that logic its the same as; "well I really liked using my right hand but it was chopped off by a bloodthirsty marauder, so now I use my left hand to eat and wipe"
That does not mean its optimal to use your left hand, WM and Enochian SUCK, stop perma-white knighting for Yoshi 24/7.

The worst part about bard is watching the Bloodletter procs and it spinning like crazy and you're stuck in a cast...

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Originally Posted by Avenfell

Its always funny reading the replies on this topic, they are basically all; "well at first I hated WM, more then anything, was the worst thing ever made, but eventually I got used to it".......
Ok so that's the defense?! By that logic its the same as; "well I really liked using my right hand but it was chopped off by a bloodthirsty marauder, so now I use my left hand to eat and wipe"
That does not mean its optimal to use your left hand, WM and Enochian SUCK, stop perma-white knighting for Yoshi 24/7.

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Don't like something initially->try a new thing out->like it after all->OMG WHITE KNIGHT!!!

I agree, that the change was too sudden, but I disagree with the change being an entirely bad thing. 2.x Bard had end-game problems that needed addressing to, one way or another. That solution, albeit not the best one, turned out to be Minuet.

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they are basically all *snip*

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What kind of answer are you hoping anyway?

Either you get used to it or you dont like it thus you try other class or never use WM in your entire BRD career, what else is there?

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Bard had end-game problems that needed addressing to, one way or another. That solution, albeit not the best one, turned out to be Minuet.

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What was the problem, though? Too much mobility? I wasn't around in 2.x, so I'm genuinely asking, because I don't understand how mobility on a character that already does less damage than the others (because it's a support dps) could be considered an end--game problem.

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Originally Posted by rakali

What was the problem, though? Too much mobility? I wasn't around in 2.x, so I'm genuinely asking, because I don't understand how mobility on a character that already does less damage than the others (because it's a support dps) could be considered an end--game problem.

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The thing is, a good Bard with a Dragoon (Disembowel improves direct DPS by 10%) used to be a very potent damage dealer, in addition to what used to be unsurpassed mobility. The old Bard had the highest activity percentile out of all classes due to being able to DPS everywhere and anywhere, even whilst dealing with crucial mechanics. The ability to DPS under almost any situation by itself closed gap against more potent DPS classes by itself as well. All in all, Bard did just too much: you could trivialize mechanics while losing hardly anything.

As for "support DPS": I would suggest all Bards try to deviate from this line of thinking. While we have quite potent support abilities, generally MP/TP songs that cripple you will be sang during downtime periods, so most of the time the damage penalty is not really prevalent. All in all, the only times when the damage penalty applies is a.) During early progression or a long fight with no down-time b.) Someone fucks up c.) Inefficient use of songs. Bard has never been a Monk, but we were and still are very potent damage dealers, paired with Dragoons.

Bards could've been addressed in other manners than with Minuet, but that's what we got. I'm not telling everyone to be happy about it, but it's also not as much doom-and-gloom as many people make it out to be. As mentioned earlier, we still have strong mobility with short casts, Feint, Straighter Shot procs, Stance-Dancing and Repelling Shot. Maintaining the same activity% as before requires more work, and it's not as simple to trivialize mechanics, but it's still largely possible with good, coordinated plays. Bard is still really good, and the composition regarded as the "best" (relative to the context, but this one as largerly regarded as the overall best) atm is NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD, which has 2 supposed "support dps" in it. It is just not as trivial to either damage or deal mechanics with it compared to 2.x.

I beat all the Coils in 2.x, as well as clearing the latest Savage Raiding tier on my Bard. I have a lot of personal experience on the class both pre- and post-changes, for what it's worth.

Personally, I only picked up BRD because it got WM in the expansion. It was just too boring before, when one could literally zone out and still do good deeps. Still regret picking it up as my first job when there were other much more fun alternatives.

hey cool it's that "bard is a blm" meme again