Why people hate bard using songs?

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I never get yelled at for playing songs because that's the BRD's job. I get in trouble if I don't play the songs at the right moment XD My guess the reason some get petty because they don't need the songs, they can manage their MP/TP just fine.

Just tell them, if you guys need the Mage's Ballad, Foe Requiem, or Army's Peon, give a shout and I'll play it for ya.

MP and TP songs lower your dps and are almost never needed. The only time I use the MP song is in a crisis or during phase shifts (and even then I don't unless the healers are hurting so I have more mp for requiem) when there is down time and I do not think I have ever needed to use the TP song. Requiem and swift the most used of them all.

So it's best not to use your TP/MP songs unless you must so you don't take a hit on your dps output which for brds isn't the best to begin with.

but whhyyyyy?? why they no want you to sing??!! you sing anyway :D

No songs, no coms. Preferably Foes though. Don't need tp/mp help outside of 4-5mins plus encounters or if something goes terribly wrong.

Only reason i could think of is when Bards leave a song active between pulls or while rushing to other areas otherwise i do not know what the issue could be.
TP is not a huge issue as there is invigorate which Ninja, Dragoon and Monk can all use along with Bard.
If you do activate a song when party members clearly are burning tp or mp and they yelling at you, ignore them.
Do not let some bad apples ruin a job that you seem to otherwise enjoy

Micah is right; the songs do lower your DPS, but only by 10%. It's not as terrible as some make it out to be. I think MCHs actually take a bigger hit when they promote their turrets to give TP/MP regeneration, since they lose that turret auto-attack, which I think is about 15% of their damage. I haven't dabbled with MCH too much though, so any MCH mains that for sure know the numbers, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


That being said, I have mained BRD since I started playing this game (so, over a year because I started in Nov 2015, and played off and on until I started paying a sub in Feb 2016). I rarely have to use Army's. The only time I can remember using it was for a VERY Overpower-happy WAR that didn't have hardly any TP to even attack mobs and hold hate.

I've used Mage's quite a few times. Usually only in situations where the heals are doing a lot of healing/raising (SophEx comes to mind as the last time I used Mage's). Also, if a healer dies and is raised, I usually pop Mage's for about 30 seconds or so to help them get enough MP back to continue on as normal. I do occasionally see people asking for it when it's not necessary... I once had a PLD ask for MP song so he could continue to Clemency himself. Yet...we had a healer that was keeping him alive, so I don't know why he wanted to Clemency himself so much...and I one time had a DRK demand I play Mage's for him while he was in Darkside, and wouldn't believe me when I said it wasn't going to work... >.> Anyways!

Foe's should always be up if you have casters in your party. No if's, and's, or but's about that one. And I always do Swiftsong when running between pulls.

It's best to use your songs if you definitely see someone struggling. If I see a healer that is doing their best to keep people up, and starts running low on MP because they just had to raise two DPS that wanted to stand in the bad, I'm going to play them a song to help them out. Especially if I don't see them throwing up a Shroud of Saints or a Luminous Aether to start their own MP regen, because it may very well be on cooldown. Because, I can guarantee, if a wipe occurred, there would be those healers that would say "Well, I would OOM, and this BRD wouldn't sing for me, so..." I've never had someone complain about me using my songs. A BRD that doesn't sing isn't worth being a BRD, in my opinion. Important thing to remember is: while you are singing Army's or Mage's, DO NOT USE ANY BUFFS DURING THAT TIME. Once you toggle the song off, feel free to start popping your buffs again, but don't pop them when you're taking a DPS hit.

If someone were to complain about me trying to do my job as a SUPPORT DPS by singing for them, well. I'll turn off my Mage's/Army's then, and let you continue to struggle with your no MP/no TP. Have fun with that!

Because bard is just plain weak and giving other party members "support" does cover up these weakness. They hit like wet noodles outside of their openers or when their (long!) cooldowns are available.

Their songs are also lack luster.

Giving you back MP? Unless the healers are raising or DPSing like crazy, they should not need this. Casters have no issue either.

Giving you back TP? Unless major AoE madness is happening there should be no need for this. PLD/DRK suffer from TP but losing 10% DPS to keep a tank going is bad.

Boosting casting DPS? This one is good, no complaints. Ever better on battle voice.

Esuna + resist Song. Ha ha, outside of some very basic debuffs, this is downright insulting for a job to have for its level 50-60 arsenal. Any and all status ailments that actually matter cannot be cleaned! Not to mention that healers that know what they are doing should have no problem with cleansing and healing. We get more use out of this by using it on warriors' pacification than anything else!

Wanderer's Minuet? I don't consider this a song because it does not behave like a song, it behaves like an on/off buff with a drawbacks.

Swiftsong? The thing turns itself off when in battle! Its useful when solo but having to recast it every time you clear a mob in a dungeon is annoying. No uses in battles, downright terrible to recast in places like Palace of the Dead.

No song to boost melee DPS or haste. No songs for healing/regens. No songs to reduce damage. No songs with direct effects on enemies. Nothing good.

Lets just hope the new songs on the expansion have more to give than this.

It is up to you to decide when to use things though, and some songs are very situational. For example if your playing mages ballad alot, things are prolly not going well overall if its pug content. For example if your healers are constantly rezzing the drg then yeah pop mages ballad, but if things are going ok and they are still half mp or so chances are they are ok and have their cds there to fill them back up. Foe Requiem id say long as you think it will benefit someone pop it, do keep in mind it can aggro though so some tanks might find it annoying if you run with it on. Again this are tips for pug content though duty roulette etc. On a satic/raid enviroment it might change though and usually fo those you also save battle voice for refill purposes so that you dont stay in song as long and cut your dps too much.

Can we get the scenario you were in when you were getting yelled at? Like what content you were doing and what jobs were in your party? :B

The only reasons I can think of are:
A) You used Mage's Ballad and it threw off the party's Black Mage's (if there was one) rotation
B) You used Foe's Requiem when there were no casters in your party
C) You were taking aggro off the tank

pfft if there's a healer in grp i usually toss foes out anyways :P and well there's always healer in the grp XD

hadn't thought about the BLM rotation thing before... >: )

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

I don't know why there is lots of people who don't want bards useing songs to replenish party members MP and TP when needed and because of this i might stop playing as bard completely when no one don't want bards using songs when needed.

Also if you guys think this is stupid thread then report me so i get banned that i can't never post threads here.

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Please use your songs. Foe Req for magic users especially during their bursts, Paeon between trash pulls to get everone's TP back up and ballad when healers need the help. That's part of your job as a support DPS and what you chose to do. If your party members don't want you singing, they don't know your role or you may have been playing at an inopportune time. I commend bards that sing rather than straight DPS. That's their role, same with MCH. DPS like mad, but sing when needed.

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

pfft if there's a healer in grp i usually toss foes out anyways :P and well there's always healer in the grp XD

hadn't thought about the BLM rotation thing before... >: )

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I only will IF I see the healer DPSing.
I wonder if increasing the Healer's DPS outweighs decreasing our though... >x>

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I only will IF I see the healer DPSing.
I wonder if increasing the Healer's DPS outweighs decreasing our though... >x>

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Foe Requiem doesn't decrease BRD DPS. Only Army's and Mage's does. :3

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Originally Posted by Erudito

Esuna + resist Song. Ha ha, outside of some very basic debuffs, this is downright insulting for a job to have for its level 50-60 arsenal. Any and all status ailments that actually matter cannot be cleaned! Not to mention that healers that know what they are doing should have no problem with cleansing and healing. We get more use out of this by using it on warriors' pacification than anything else!

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Should be used on the warrior's pacification.

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I only will IF I see the healer DPSing.
I wonder if increasing the Healer's DPS outweighs decreasing our though... >x>

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Foe doesn't decrease your dps, theres no reason to not play it, healers count as casters too.

I don't think people hate you singing songs, I think people don't like you singing the wrong song at the wrong time or for no reason?

I've never had a healer running on fumes complain about getting mana, or SMN/BLM not appreciating Foes?

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Originally Posted by ChiiSoSeriouz

Should be used on the warrior's pacification

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Want to also add that Warden's has saved my butt MANY times when the healer can't be bothered to Esuna a debuff off of me. I will also throw it on another party member if I see that they catch a debuff, or on a healer if they end up silenced (pretty useful in PotD with the Silence/Pacification traps...if the game is nice and removes the correct debuff, that is ;3).

So, the poster you quoted was wrong in saying that it's a useless skill and that bards should be insulted having it in their arsenal. I'm actually quite fond of it.

To the OP: You should always use your songs when they are needed. If people get "offended" or "upset" about you singing, kindly remind them that you are a BARD and it is your job AS A SUPPORT DPS to support the party.

That being said, there are still instances where you will need to use your songs. And you should always use them. 10% decrease in DPS is still a decrease, yes, but not singing means your not doing your job as a bard. And you shouldn't have to leave Mage's/Army's up for extended periods of time anyways.

Foe Requiem: use ALWAYS when you have a caster in the party, or when you see a healer contributing to DPS. I recommend playing it for bosses and large trash pulls. If the tank is only pulling small packs that will melt pretty quickly, there isn't a huge need to play it. Save your MP for the boss. But for large Big Daddy pulls, the extra debuff certainly helps make them melt faster. Don't leave it on between pulls though; you will pull mobs with it.

Mage's Ballad: if you see a healer struggling with MP, pop Mage's quickly to help them out. Especially if you don't see them pop any MP regens to help themselves. Also, if a healer dies and is raised, a few seconds of Mage's can help give them back enough MP to get back on their feet again.

Army's Paeon: not many instances where I've had to use this one, but could be useful for a melee DPS if they died and were raised. Just to give them an extra boost. Most melee cross-class Invigorate, and can handle their own TP. But if you see them sitting at 0-100 TP, and NOT popping Invigorate, sing a little to help them out.

Warden's Paeon: useful for cleansing a WAR's Berserk pacification, AND also useful for saving your own skin from debuffs. Don't let people tell you it's a useless skill, because it isn't. Can also be used on fellow party members to either help out a healer, or if you see a healer just ignoring debuffs/forgetting what Esuna/Leeches/Exhalted Detriment does. I've encountered plenty of healers that seem to forget that one basic skill.


I know you mention (and some others did as well) playing between pulls. Usually, the out-of-battle MP/TP regen ticks are more than sufficient to regenerate resources between pulls. Unless you've got a DPS sitting at near 0 or a healer nearly OOM. By all means, sing to help them regenerate faster, but it shouldn't be necessary to sing between every pull.

I often have to ask BRDs not to sing Ballad when I'm healing. If I have Luminiferous Aether or Shroud of Saints with less than 5 sec remaining on the cooldown, I'll purposely blow all my MP on Gravity or Holy til I'm down to two digits. For those times, Foe Requiem is a far better song to sing than Ballad. If there are six targets, Holy/Gravity is 900 potency -- this is almost the same as two BLMs casting Fire IV at the same time.

In general, if your healer is the sort to cast an absurd number of damage spells, he's not the sort to let his MP get low with no way to self replenish it. Save the Ballads for parties with multiple deaths, or for breaks in a long boss fight when you can't attack anything anyway.

BRD song are very useful at endgame and while learning new content.

TP: A9S (Any long fight with no breaks).
MP: Any new fight because there will be lots of deaths and healers will be over healing.
Foe: Any fight. (Your healers will benefit form this too).

If you want to sing in dungeons/trials here are tips:
TP: Between pulls if you see dps/tank low at TP.
MP: Between pulls if you see your WHM/AST spamming Holy/Gravity. Also when one of the healers die.
Foe: At bosses and large pulls.

I'm still trying to figure out why so many Bards give me (War) The Warden's Paean at the start of a pull.
I can't think of a great use for it other than stopping Berserk's Pacify, but that isn't even used until a number of GCDs into a pull.

Ninja also benefits from Foe Requiem, not as much as casters mind you

Sometimes healers ask for mp turret (you have to summon other turret and then press "promotion". It takes some time, and you're not dpsing while doing this) and 5 seconds later say "ok, now I don't need it, thanks"... It's slightly easier for brd in this case, but for mch my turret is even still on CD. And for some reason this often happens when Hypercharge is ready to be used (and it gets delayed, that throws off all cd timings synergy).

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I'm still trying to figure out why so many Bards give me (War) The Warden's Paean at the start of a pull.
I can't think of a great use for it other than stopping Berserk's Pacify, but that isn't even used until a number of GCDs into a pull.

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Warden's lasts for 30 seconds, but I personally don't throw it on a WAR pre pull. I ether watch for them to use Berserk, wait for the incessant and annoying macro spam that alerts me every five seconds of their impending pacification, or, if I'm running with someone in the FC, just toss it on them when they tell me "Warden's please." Unless you open with Berserk, not much reason to throw it on pre-pull or at pull, but I suppose they're just trying to be helpful.

Is there a time and place for all songs? Yes. Should MP/TP songs be sang outside necessity? No.


Most of the time, people are expecting you to sing Foe's Requiem, as it makes all runs with any caster DPS faster. While people don't expect you to use Warden's Paean most of the times, keeping an eye out for your WAR's Berserk buff or any nasty ailments is generally a good thing to do.

However, in most non-savage content you will almost never need to sing MP/TP, unless your party is really struggling. Such situations usually occur in runs with a lot of deaths, resulting in a possible starvation of TP/MP. While singing TP/MP is by itself not a malign thing to do, using it at the wrong time is generally detrimental for your run speed. Some healers also take it as a general vote of distrust if you sing mana when they have everything under control.

I would advice not to let it get to you too much; just learn the situations, where using TP/MP songs really matter, and outside that stick with Foe's Requiem, Warden's Paean and Swiftsong. As a tip, a generally good position to sing mana/tp if necessary is during downtime where you won't be able to DPS anyway, like the part flying the Cruise Chaser or Alex Prime before he casts his ultimate. You can also sing TP/MP between pulls if your healers go ham with holies or something, but it's usually better to Swiftsong and regenerate mana for the next Foe's.

Foe is about the only song I really use the most. The others are very situational and simply put when you have properly geared group and people that know how to play their roles you will never need them.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Is there a time and place for all songs? Yes. Should MP/TP songs be sang outside necessity? No.


Most of the time, people are expecting you to sing Foe's Requiem, as it makes all runs with any caster DPS faster. While people don't expect you to use Warden's Paean most of the times, keeping an eye out for your WAR's Berserk buff or any nasty ailments is generally a good thing to do.

However, in most non-savage content you will almost never need to sing MP/TP, unless your party is really struggling. Such situations usually occur in runs with a lot of deaths, resulting in a possible starvation of TP/MP. While singing TP/MP is by itself not a malign thing to do, using it at the wrong time is generally detrimental for your run speed. Some healers also take it as a general vote of distrust if you sing mana when they have everything under control.

I would advice not to let it get to you too much; just learn the situations, where using TP/MP songs really matter, and outside that stick with Foe's Requiem, Warden's Paean and Swiftsong. As a tip, a generally hood position to sing mana/tp if necessary is during downtime where you won't be DPS anyway, like the part flying the Cruise Chaser or Alex Prime before he casts his ultimate. You can also sing TP/MP between pulls if your healers go ham with holies or something, but it's usually better to Swiftsong and regerate mana for the next Foe's.

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Originally Posted by Renius

Foe is about the only song I really use the most. The others are very situational and simply put when you have properly geared group and people that know how to play their roles you will never need them.

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Agreed and agreed.

In casual play I pretty much expect to see only Foe unless there's an actual need to play Paeon after a pull. Too many bards hoard their MP as if they had something else to do with it, and it kills me as a healer not to have Foe.

Does your party have a healer? Foe.
Does your party have a caster? Foe.
Does your party have a DRK? Foe for their spells.
Does your party have a NIN? Foe for their mudras.

If the question is Foe, the answer is almost always yes.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I'm still trying to figure out why so many Bards give me (War) The Warden's Paean at the start of a pull.
I can't think of a great use for it other than stopping Berserk's Pacify, but that isn't even used until a number of GCDs into a pull.

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Pre-pull is from when it had an actual cast time the old opener was precast wardens->precast foes->buffs into pull, you ccould safely use it on the warrior at the start because if the warrior is pulling or there is a ninja the warrior should be using berserk 2 gcds in (right before eye).

Now you don't have to worry about precasting it since it's instant ogcd but for things like expert they are probably assuming you're going to do the pulling opener so they just throw it on. I've noticed while using my warrior some bards like to just use it off cooldown, they will catch all of the berserks if used off cd by doing that and then they don't have to worry about trying to watch the warrior

Dear Undead. It might help you understand why players don't want you singing those songs if you become more familiar with the jobs they are playing. Most jobs have their own skills designed to refresh their mp or tp. For example if a healer is dpsing they would prefer you playing foes. All healers have their own mp recovery tools, so unless they are forced to raise party members they are intending to refresh their own mp. Melee dps also have tp refresh tools. You're doing good paying attention to party needs though ^^

Cause instead of pushing their DPS so that they need you, your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers' numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential. It makes you question why are you a bard if numbers is all they want. Just go DRG, MNK, NIN, MCH, or maybe even a BLM. DRG and MNK will bring up more damage than the BRD wasting their time singing for what little the BLM and healers will do easily. Still wanna buff party damage? Then not only are they stronger but DRG, NIN and MCH can do that for everybody, plus MCH requires no cast times to use their buffs. =D

And don't bring up this 'oh foe can increase magic damage by 10%' mess, you know those bosses force you to not attack them on and off excessively with the exception of A9S. Healers if they even do tend to the actual healing part have their primary responsibilities getting in the way of dealing damage in addition to being overall weaker to begin with. So when you do the math, you can make up for that by bringing someone significantly stronger along, especially if ya'll eliminated the need for TP/MP songs in even T9S.

That's the only reason. I trending mob of MIN/MAXer's who will do everything in their power to avoid you using your TP or MP restores even if it means never pushing their DPS as far as they can go.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Cause instead of pushing their DPS so that they need you, your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential. It makes you question why are you a bard if numbers is all they want. Just go DRG, MNK, NIN, MCH, or maybe even a BLM. DRG and MNK will bring up more damage than the BRD wasting their time singing for what little the BLM and healers will do easily. Still wanna buff party damage? Then not only are they stronger but DRG, NIN and MCH can do that for everybody, plus MCH requires no cast times to use their buffs.

And don't bring up this oh foe can increase magic damage by 10%mess

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1.) Some of the top parses for current Savage tier are bards.

2.) If party is caster heavy, bard>mch. Mch only buffs melee 10% every 2m for 20s. Bard buffs casters 10% for the duration of their MP (approx 1m 15s) and by 20% every 180s for 30s.

Try again.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers' numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential.

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What?

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

...will do everything in their power to avoid you using your TP or MP restores even if it means never pushing their DPS as far as they can go.

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Then maybe you can explain to us the advantage of using TP and MP restoration skills unnecessarily?

I'm not understanding the correlation between using these skills and pushing DPS when A) encounter design infrequently requires them unless heavy mistakes are made in a raid environment and B) Paeon and Ballad both reduce the BRD's personal DPS. For example, if a group is TP starved due to excessive uptime, the BRD is definitely going to sing Paeon, so I don't know what you would want beyond that.

Also, I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest that Foe isn't very good, because it is. It's not as if BRDs are horribly weak on their own and need Foe to make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Cause instead of pushing their DPS so that they need you, your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers' numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential.

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Serious question, what I believe you are saying is I should use more resources so I need mp/tp.

How as a melee. am I supposed to push my potention and more specifically the group as a whole's potential with more tp, when a) on a standard trash pull I can use my highest tp consuming ability (besides sprint of course) and if the other dps is doing so as well not run out of tp and be full for the next pull by the time the group stops (keeping in mind brd blow the ever loving s### out of mob packs), or b) be single target fighting and doing the most optimum rotations on any melee which take 4+ minutes to hit the starvation point, push my DPS and resource usage harder so I need more TP on a regular basis when your average no break encounter is under 4 minutes?

Not even factoring in mp restore because that just benefits those weak healers or that 1 mage dps, or that mp/tp songs reducing that tasty brd aoe dmg output.

Remember when bards were cool? And had far more than 3-4 songs, and where a shit ton more versatile and useful? Those that played FFXI do.

Because of the heavy DPS focus since 3.0's launch and the newer MP regeneration abilities for WHM: jobs with lots of support skills are now being pressured to focus on increasing their DPS and action management (yuck). Maybe. I've only had just a few complaints about this, but it's been the opposite for me since lv60, because I can get way too caught up in my rotations too easily and I never check my party's compositions, ever. XD

Speaking as a BRD main here, OP, you need to know when to play certain songs. Most of the time, you'll be playing Swiftsong and Foe Requiem, and only playing Mage's Ballad or Army's Paeon when absolutely necessary. It sounds like you're playing Ballad and Paeon when there is no need for them. If you want to make the most of your songs, this is what you have to do:

1) Swiftsong between pulls, Foe Requiem for just about every encounter.
2) Battle Voice Foe Requiem on boss encounters, or on trash if it takes 3+ minutes to get to the boss when you last used it.
3) Only play Mage's Ballad when your healers need the MP to keep everyone alive and to revive people, especially when their methods of restoring MP aren't readily available.
4) Only play Army's Paeon when your physical DPS need it, especially when they're running low and their Invigorate is on cooldown.

Follow that, and you'll be golden.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Remember when bards were cool? And had far more than 3-4 songs, and where a shit ton more versatile and useful? Those that played FFXI do.

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While I loved XI's Bards, I would like to point out that they couldn't do anything without a party (even WHM can solo with the right setup) and, with the inclusion of Corsair and Geomancer, have fallen from grace as the preferred buffer in the current meta because of being the only one of the three that mainly damages via Melee attacks, with only one or two damaging songs.

Blm, Smn, Ninja, healers and even DK ALL benefit from Foe, so to say Bard singing is gimping yourself out even if it just benefits say a caster and healer is not exactly good advice at all.

To continue from the post above mine here, the ONLY DPS loss you get from Foe Requiem is spending a GCD to play it in combat. No 10% damage penalty, just spending a GCD on a 1.5s cast to help boost the damage of your party's attack spells by making your enemies weaker to them. That one GCD spent singing the song over spending it on a Heavy Shot can be made up easily with a caster or healer DPS alone, or even your DRK AoEing and your NIN using Raiton/Katon.

Anyone who says that Foe Requiem is a DPS loss doesn't know how to play BRD properly.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

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If the Bard has to consistently sing TP/MP, the bigger problem is most likely the overall raid DPS being too low, making the fights drag on for too long. No top team "pushes" their classes to their limit as you mention it in a way that actively requires the Bard/Mch to sing resources for them. Quite the contrary, in fact, as high DPS teams make singing resources redundant, as you never reach the point of starvation.

As said before, TP/MP songs will be sang during down-time periods, if possible. T9 had significant down-time. If you're talking about A9S, you can kill it in or less than 4mins without ever needing to sing TP/MP at all. If need be, the Bard should sing during minied, but idk if many groups even see that mechanic anymore.

Taking into assumption that most parties run a Ninja,with them. If there's no Ninja, then the Bard may have to sing TP on combat on some fights.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

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What makes you think I'm talking about the "top team" who most likely CAN'T suffer from resource starvation because they crushed it that hard with high end gear? MIN/MAX?

I'm talking about the clowns who plague the raid scene. The ones who'd rather strike 1 of 8 trash hugging the boss at a time while there is zero reason to keep any one of them alive, there by wasting everyone's time. And I mean not a single decimate, Overpower, quick nock, blizzard 2 (summoner), holy, Gravity, or rockbreaker! The type who'll shun you for singing at all, then ask for it TP regen you just tried to give them 12 seconds later for the 12th time in a row. The type who'll honestly believes you are good if you "use all your tools" instead of using them effectively and efficiently, none of which they do at all. "Gotta use all your tools", then why aren't you using your AoEs to kill all 9 trash and damage the boss? "Gotta use all your tools", then why as a healer do you always neglect to mitigate damage while doing DPS every time? "Gotta use all your tools", then why shame the paladin for trying to save himself while there's a completely lack of healing during the AUTO ATTACKS? "Gotta use all your tools", don't lie, the very nature of your MIN/MAX means you will never use all your tools, so why make it up? "Gotta use all your tools", OK now your clearly out to fluff your own numbers, you're getting the paladin to stop attacking to recast protect everyone someone dies. Some of those same jokes refuse a little pick me up while raising 4 players, then ask for more MP, and you know that DPS healer would rather DPS and not hold back just cause "OH LOW ON MP, BETTER SAVE UP!" I'm talking about the group who'll go into savage at entry level and say who needs gear while struggling due to deficient DPS, an irrational fear of resources, consequently actual resource starvation, and maybe coordination issues, because they absolutely refuse to consider simple math, basic coordination, and ACTUAL willingness to do more than what you're used to. Turning what you say a POTENTIAL 4 minute fight into 9 or whenever the enrage is, and A9S plays the red light; green light game the least.

Last group I was with, MIN/MAX says let's regen during mini, MIN/MAX shouts turn it off during mini. That MIN/MAXer was a ninja who also asked me to give them TP at the same point of every A9S 20 times in a row with zero improvement, just before the second arm appears.

ALSO, funny how suddenly someone after my comment have been saying BRD is stronger than MCH, when I keep hearing for the longest time it was MCH. So which is it? He making something up on the fly or do I have another reason to not trust the MIN/MAXer I'm stuck with who NEVER shuts up about "WHAT THE TOP TEAMS PREFER"?

And one last thing. I never said Foe was a DPS lose, even though some people hate the cast time eating a GCD, which hurts their numbers to a degree. I said if the increase was that marginal, then you'd be better off getting on a stronger class if you care about the party numbers that much. After all I didn't say one caster and two weak healers for no reason. You know, if the increase is just 100 total DPS, and you replace the job with something 100+ DPS stronger and you never needed the regen, then no problem. If there's 100 more DPS to be had by doing more such as AoEs in a mob of trash near the boss, then do more. IMPROVE! Know the fight!

And yes they are that shallow, they only care about the damage when it comes to "MIN/MAX".